You could play a version with a Living Wish toolbox and Vexing Shusher and Boseiju, Who Shelters all in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by idraleo
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You could play a version with a Living Wish toolbox and Vexing Shusher and Boseiju, Who Shelters all in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by idraleo
Dear Santa,
I want The Rock to start running Death Cloud. I no longer want my iPhone or my new bowling ball as long as I can see someone gripping spell snare get their board wiped by Death Cloud like the days of watching ext MTGO and rofling in silence to the wincing of players.
Make it so please,
Mike
Dear rockout,Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Try it out with Oversold Cemetery, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Veteran Explorer, Shriekmaw, maybe Korlash, maybe Loam/Raven's Crime or Crucible or Worlds and you'll see, it isn't actually that bad.
Kind regards,
Santa
@ Thelion: I totally agree. I think death cloud is an absolute must in a deck running any with a when-this-card-hits-the-graveyard-effects. It's a beast in the control match-up as well.
In a format where explosive starts are huge, Living Wish for silver bullets is too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by e=mc^2
Against combo by the time you get a piece of hate you'll probably be dead or so far behind you'll only barely slow them down.
Against goblins and a turn 1 dreadnought you'll already be dead as well.
This is from a lot of testing with wish.
If you want to run it you have got to be able to slow the game down dramatically.
Im not sure about death cloud, I've always loved the card- but its a different deck than the rock.
Is there a thread started for that? Forgive me now for necro'ing it later this week.
I'll try finks out as a 2 of I guess, not sure if I want to see him often enough, and Im not sure what else to cut for him atm.
You know what else isn't bad with Death Cloud? Kitchen Finks. :wink:
Is Kitchen Finks replacing Hierarch? I hope not.
It should if you don't play White.Quote:
Is Kitchen Finks replacing Hierarch? I hope not.
I could see spike feeder getting the nod over finks in some metas, since you can gain all four life immediately (this may be important), and it makes your goyfs win goyf fights. Just something to consider.
Isn't the rock naturally GBW? Replacing white is similar to replacing blue in thresh/landstill builds, it just doesn't seem to work correctly. I'll have to do more testing I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by citanul
Originally it was Green Black. Even now Green Black midgame/lategame decks are still called the Rock.Quote:
Isn't the rock naturally GBW?
Most versions do run the white splash these days but someone a few posts back posted his BG list saying he missed Hierarch, hence the Kitchen Finks suggestion.
The Rock also used to run Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit! A few months ago I encountered Sol Malka (creator of the Rock) at an extended tournament and he is playing GBr now for Burning Wish and Contested Cliffs with Ravenous Baloths and Spiritmonger. However, Sol (I heard this from someone) doesn't think The Rock is very viable in legacy. Not sure if this is true but this is what I heard. Also, at the Atlanta Grand Prix Legacy Side Event (where I made it to a top 4 split with Rock:) I saw Sol and walked up to him and asked his thoughts on the deck for legacy. He really thinks the red splash as Contested Cliffs is nuts. I am not sure how effective this would be in a format with recurring Wastelands but I think Burning Wish is just to slow for an already slow midrange control deck!
I personally don't see why you would not run white since you get Doran, Vindicate, and StP but if solid G/B works, then play it. I just don't see why it would be better in any way. You have a 3 mana 5/5 that stalls Goblins and nullifies Piledriver. And the best instant and sorcery speed spot removal spells ever printed.
@throst54: Why would you ever run Diety of Scars over Spiritmonger? Spiritmonger is spectacular in every way, they have the same casting cost, they both regenerate, Spiritmonger gets bigger and changes colors (more relevant than you think). Diety kills puny creatures that don't matter anyway or makes Goyf smaller .... if you are having problems dealing with Goyf in a Rock deck I suggest a new build. I just don't understand why you would not run Spiritmonger over Diety.
Regarding Death Cloud, that is a whole other deck. It has not place in Rock as the deck has to be designed to handle it. And the only thing they will have in common is they are both G/B. I am not saying Death Cloud is bad in legacy, quite the opposite, I think the deck has a lot of potential. But it won't be in a Rock shell it will be a totally different deck. Most likely it will play Deed but thats just because Deed is that damn good!
Red doesn't fit in Legacy Rock. If Goyf wasn't around you could replace StP with Bolts for early removal plus Burning Wish for a bullet side. But a Bolt never takes down a Goyf so not really possible. Same goes for Contested Cliffs, sounds bad. Possibly one activation but for what? We manage to deal with creatures already in a more efficient way.Quote:
The Rock also used to run Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit! A few months ago I encountered Sol Malka (creator of the Rock) at an extended tournament and he is playing GBr now for Burning Wish and Contested Cliffs with Ravenous Baloths and Spiritmonger. However, Sol (I heard this from someone) doesn't think The Rock is very viable in legacy. Not sure if this is true but this is what I heard. Also, at the Atlanta Grand Prix Legacy Side Event (where I made it to a top 4 split with Rock:) I saw Sol and walked up to him and asked his thoughts on the deck for legacy. He really thinks the red splash as Contested Cliffs is nuts. I am not sure how effective this would be in a format with recurring Wastelands but I think Burning Wish is just to slow for an already slow midrange control deck!
I personally don't see why you would not run white since you get Doran, Vindicate, and StP but if solid G/B works, then play it. I just don't see why it would be better in any way. You have a 3 mana 5/5 that stalls Goblins and nullifies Piledriver. And the best instant and sorcery speed spot removal spells ever printed.
I never stated that white shouldn't be run in Rock. I think it was the natural evolution as the metagame got faster. I just replied on one person's post where he talked about a G/B Build. I do disagree with the Doran Statement. It is only good if you run early game mana fixers such as BoP or Sakura-tribe Elder else it's virtually impossible to make decend one drops, two drops followed by a turn3 Doran with such a mana cost.
The only real things you get out of red in legacy rock are Jund Charm and Terminate.
When is changing colors relevant for Spiritmonger? I realize it can be, but how often?
The only widely played spells that mention color read 'nonblack'.
If you're going for an aggro oriented rock, splash white.
If you're more control oriented, splashing white is just preference.
A more consistant manabase can go a long way. And you make it a lot harder for any decks to keep you off one color.
I like deity of scars because he has trample. Spiritmonger has the same problem that tarmogoyf does, that is he can be chumped all day long. Primary beater is goyf- Diety and Stalker both have evasion so when I drop them I know i should be able to end the game quickly.
Whats the point in Spiritmonger getting bigger if he never gets through? Diety of Scars doesnt need to get bigger, he needs to attack and plow through blockers a couple of times.
Im still testing Diety, I may go back to 'monger but at this point it isnt looking like I will.
You should try him out and draw your own conclusions.
Chump blocking all day long? With what? Maybe they have something like STE or any other 1/1er, but there won't be any chump blockers for a long time, except they're playing Bitterblossom.
And if they only chump block, they are loosing anyway.
Furthermore, we play Deed and enough removal.
I never had problems with Spiritmonger beeing unefficient due to the lack of trample. I still like him more, due to the easy casting cost and it's other abilities. (though color changing weren't really relevant).
@Contested Cliffs: I tested it once as a 3-off, and once as a single Living Wish target. However, if you manage to get it going, you can completely control the board (creatures).
But in the end, I found, that a 3 color mana base, was to bad, and the colorless mana from Cliffs hurted too, so that I went back to BG only.
One example is any deck running man lands and cruicible/loam.
Goblins, slivers, elves and to a lesser degree ichorid can stall the board with chump blockers.
If you're already playing BG w/o splash theres no reason not to test Deity.
If they are chump blocking they may be losing, but it also means its keeping you from winning.
It also means they they are stabilizing and finding are making time to find answers.
Time isnt something you want to give to your opponent- especially if its goblins.
Both Monger and Diety would be sided out against fast aggro though so neither of them are any good against Goblins/Slivers. And the Lands! and Eternal Garden matchups are almost unwinnable. It would take a savage SB to defeat Lands!
Running 2 instead of 3 colors against goblins makes thier waste/ports a lot less effective
If youre running veteran explorer you can generally accelerate into diety/monger quickly enough.
(However, you have to be careful w/ explorer and only pop him at the right time- IE after you've done a bit of discard and can judge from thier hand who will benefit more from the 2 lands)
I generally side in 2x Haunting Echoes against loam variants.
Or i side in 4x extirpate and 4x tormods- just depends on which SB im running.
I agree the matchup is a major pain in the ass- but it isnt unwinnable.
I tested against Eternal Garden and found that Tarmogoyf + hand disruption + Vindicate was usually good. There were the matchups where Crucible + Wasteland set up or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + Maze of Ith came down, but I did not feel it was unwinnable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
i've been playing w/g/b rock for about a year now have have a pretty good deck but have a tough time deciding whether to run putrefy or vindicate i like them both but they both have there draw backs putrefy is an instant and they cant regenerate but it only hits creatures and artifacts but vindicate kills any permanent but its at a sorcery speed and they could regenerate. just want to hear peoples opinions also what do you think about running Doran and if you would how many?
I'd go for Vindicate. More versatile and the possibilty to kill Enchantments (Counterbalance!) besides Deed. Doran depends on your list, if you run forms of mana fix/accel then you can run them with a maximum of 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by char89
I actually have a good match up against it. I do run Loam, Wasteland and Grunt main so I manage to disrupt them heavily.Quote:
I tested against Eternal Garden and found that Tarmogoyf + hand disruption + Vindicate was usually good. There were the matchups where Crucible + Wasteland set up or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + Maze of Ith came down, but I did not feel it was unwinnable.