[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

There really is no need to debate which is better, Street Wraith or Breakthrough because there isn't an answer. It is all just a matter of play-style. Street Wraith is likely to get Stifled but can't be countered which is a serious plus to the deck and it acts as additional Ichorid fodder. Breakthrough gives the decks that extra explosiveness but, much like Deep Analysis, is very suceptible to counterspells.

Both have their weaknesses and benefits. However, to someone who has never played non-LED Dredge, Street Wraith seems terrible since you only get to dredge once, but it is not. Read some of the opening posts and look at Deathwing's builds, Street Wraith is a house in Dredge!

@joe_c: The list looks good. Just goldfish it alot so you get the motions of the deck and then play in on MWS or IRL so you get used to battling through hate cards. If you plan on bringing it to a tournament get ready to see Tormod's Crypt/Relic or Leyline of the Void every game 2 and 3. Make sure you know how to properly SB the deck and be ready. One of the trickier cards to play against in today's meta is Extirpate. People love to Extirpate the biggest dredger in the yard first, in an attempt to stall the deck. When sideboarding against someone you know runs Extirpate I like to take out 1x Grave Troll since it lessens the impact of the card. In your build I would cut 1x Ichorid and 1x GGT against Extirpate. Never side out Bridge from Below though, card is TOOO vital to the deck.

Glad to see some more interest in the deck.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Unmask would only be run in place of careful study if I was fearing combo. If they win the die roll and win turn 1, it wont help you anyway. Chalice game 2/3 and therapy should be good enough to keep them off winning too quickly.

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You mean storm decks right? Other combo deck such as Grinding servant or Aluren doesn't like unmask.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

I will likely drop 1 dread return for tribe #3

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This could be a smart change. Why not one thug more or steet wraith for feeding ichorid??

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

You mean storm decks right? Other combo deck such as Grinding servant or Aluren doesn't like unmask.



This could be a smart change. Why not one thug more or steet wraith for feeding ichorid??

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Obviously I meant storm combo. Against Aluren, in come wispmares and you know what to name with therapy, enough said there.....

@Pulp: I have played LED'd Ichorid against friends (playing landstill w/black and such)quite a bit and got used to fighting through hate, but I never took it to a tournament due to inconsitency. Relic gets played more than anything in my meta. Leyline is practically not seen. The last tournament I did play in a few weeks ago I am disappointed that I did not play this instead of TES. There was not a single ichorid deck there, but tons of counterbalance. This version is better at handling hate than LED'd lists anyway. Making land drops is severely beneficial although the deck can technically win with 1 land in play. I notice you board out 1 sage in almost every matchup. Did you ever feel like it could just be another card in your list instead?

Wraith is pretty much staying in my build due to the fact that it is free dredge and food for ichorid turn 2 without losing a dredger. I would run unmask main, but I cant justify wrecking my speed/creature base to support it

I start saying that i picked up this deck again and it's beginnng to convince me a lot.
However, is it the true way to completely cut the Breakthroughs ? I mean, ok that this is not a "all-in" way to play ichorid, but breakthrough sometimes is required to keep that bit of explosivness which can allow to achieve games quickly and without taking too much time. If we rely only on careful study as "multiple dredging " enabler (apart from coliseum), i think that the way to dredge become too low: 4 coliseum+ 4 wraith+ 4 studies. Is really 12 enough?
Personally i'm running the list Joe C has published, with -1 therapy and -1 awful-tarnished citadel for +2 breakthrough, and it seems to perform really, really well.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

I start saying that i picked up this deck again and it's beginnng to convince me a lot.
However, is it the true way to completely cut the Breakthroughs ? I mean, ok that this is not a "all-in" way to play ichorid, but breakthrough sometimes is required to keep that bit of explosivness which can allow to achieve games quickly and without taking too much time. If we rely only on careful study as "multiple dredging " enabler (apart from coliseum), i think that the way to dredge become too low: 4 coliseum+ 4 wraith+ 4 studies. Is really 12 enough?
Personally i'm running the list Joe C has published, with -1 therapy and -1 awful-tarnished citadel for +2 breakthrough, and it seems to perform really, really well.

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If you play my list enough, you may come to make these changes:-1 wraith, +1 Cephalid Sage. The second sage makes getting to the bottom of your library easier and its the 1st card I would cut game 2/3. I may drop a land to put in 1 more wraith. I seem to hit lands often when I dredge, and running 14 may or may not be enough. I would not suggest losing therapy #4. It makes the fact that your ichorid will die anyway purposeful. I would run 4, no question.

Dont forget that running 6 permanent discard outlets(imp and tribe) makes dredging on your draw step really easy. Ive dredged 5 times on my 2nd turn. thats busted.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Dont forget that running 6 permanent discard outlets(imp and tribe) makes dredging on your draw step really easy. Ive dredged 5 times on my 2nd turn. thats busted.

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You know, with a manalist like yours, having a turn 2 breakthrough is a guaranteed dredge 5 times. T1 Imp/Tribe T2 Breakthrough practically means you won the game..

Btw, has Reveilark been considered as a Dread Return target? Returning either a sage, 2 grave trolls (against EE@0), Flamekin Zealot, Wispmares. There's a lot of neat stuff you can do with him.

Perhaps it's a little win more though =/

Also, I'm finding both FoW and targetted discard to be a problem for this deck, they can just target Pimp/Tribe - any other discard card you have and it'll take forever to get started.. any suggestions?

This is where I am at:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Street Wraith
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

sb:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor

I cant see dropping below 15 lands. We really want one in our opening 7. Ive been able to fight through some serious hate. Having wraith as ichorid food has been huge. I think the deck needs that many creatures for ichorid to eat to stay aggressive.

@ Joe_C: Yeah, I usually side out Cephalid Sage in nearly every matchup, but he is an essential part of the combo, and I play Dredge, more or less, like a combo deck. Playing 2 gives you better odds of winning faster. Now, if you are referring to, why not play another DR target in that spot since you always side it out, you can. I prefer to just play Sage and try to win on the same turn it is reanimated, but there is nothing wrong with playing something like Angel of Despair in its spot. The problem is, maybe 90% of the time its going to get sided out anyway, so I would just rather go for the win with Sage rather than reanimate a fatty. If you wanted to play a DR target, the best possible creature to play is Woodfall Primus since it has Persist and can potentially take out 2 serious threats like Prison effects or Glacial Chasm.

As far as Sage #2 is concerned, I have really been wanting to take it out and something else and add 2-3 Street Wraiths to the deck in addition to 3 Breakthrough. Working on what to cut, but I am not sure. I really prefer the 7 permanent discard outlets as opposed to 6. I would hate to cut a Tireless Tribe but I may go down to 2 Tribe and 1 Sage and test out 2 Street Wraith in those spots.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@ Joe_C: Yeah, I usually side out Cephalid Sage in nearly every matchup, but he is an essential part of the combo, and I play Dredge, more or less, like a combo deck. Playing 2 gives you better odds of winning faster. Now, if you are referring to, why not play another DR target in that spot since you always side it out, you can. I prefer to just play Sage and try to win on the same turn it is reanimated, but there is nothing wrong with playing something like Angel of Despair in its spot. The problem is, maybe 90% of the time its going to get sided out anyway, so I would just rather go for the win with Sage rather than reanimate a fatty. If you wanted to play a DR target, the best possible creature to play is Woodfall Primus since it has Persist and can potentially take out 2 serious threats like Prison effects or Glacial Chasm.

As far as Sage #2 is concerned, I have really been wanting to take it out and something else and add 2-3 Street Wraiths to the deck in addition to 3 Breakthrough. Working on what to cut, but I am not sure. I really prefer the 7 permanent discard outlets as opposed to 6. I would hate to cut a Tireless Tribe but I may go down to 2 Tribe and 1 Sage and test out 2 Street Wraith in those spots.

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If you drop to 1 sage, I would maybe do -1 dread return instead of losing your tribe.

That is certainly an option, and probably the best card to cut in addition to the Sage, but I am a little scared to go down to 2x Dread Return. I feel that having 3x Dread Return makes the deck a little more consistent in the storm combo matchups (being able to just go for it and succeed). Still, adding in additional draw engines seems like a good plan that may just overshadow the loss of DR. I will certainly test it out.

If you guys are cutting Breakthrough then why aren't you playing Brainstorm? With 4 Putrid Imp and 4 Tireless Tribe, Brainstorm is just as good as Breakthrough, and even by itself Brainstorm is playable.

Cutting Tireless Tribes is wrong, you're neutering yourself vs Tormod's Crypt.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

If you guys are cutting Breakthrough then why aren't you playing Brainstorm? With 4 Putrid Imp and 4 Tireless Tribe, Brainstorm is just as good as Breakthrough, and even by itself Brainstorm is playable.

Cutting Tireless Tribes is wrong, you're neutering yourself vs Tormod's Crypt.

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Brainstorm is only good if you actually have dredgers in your grave. Breakthrough if I ran it was a draw 4 then discard. So if you didnt have any way to pitch your cards in hand, it would be an outlet. I may want to bump my tribe count to 3. I dont want to lose speed and aggression, so taking out wraith wont happen for me. May go -1 return,-1 sage, +1 tribe, +1 breakthrough.

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread through from the beginning and comparing it to many other threads on various websites on normal LED Dredge. I started out building non-LED Dredge because of budget purposes, but after goldfishing both versions with proxied LEDs, I think (for now) I've decided to stick with non-LED Dredge.

Now, my purpose in posting: I'm having problems trying to fit a certain few cards into my final build, and I'm in need of some advice on how to get these cards in there. My current build looks like this:

Lands: 14
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Tarnished Citadel

Discard: 6
4x Putrid Imp
2x Tireless Tribe

Dredge: 11
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

Draw: 9
4x Careful Study
2x Breakthrough
3x Street Wraith

Combo Creatures: 10
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-kin Zealot

Graveyard Spells: 10
4x Bridge From Below
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy



Alright, so that's the current list that I'm working with. Here are the additions that I would like to make, in a fairly "priority-first" order:

1) +1 Cabal Therapy
This absolutely MUST get in there, for fairly obvious reasons.

2) +1 Tireless Tribe
Having played this deck since its inception in Ravica-Time Spiral Standard and then moving into Extended with it before now porting it to Legacy, Tireless Tribe holds huge favor in my mind. It stalls aggro while discarding at the same time. I actually like Tribe better than Imp, but I think we need Imp at 4 no matter what for Ichorid food in the graveyard and for swinging for damage, so I can't interchange the two. I would like 4 Tribes, but thinking about it, that seems impossible so I will settle for 3 (if I can even get that many in).

3) +1 Street Wraith
Just a bit of personal preference, but I do like having a full set of Wraiths.


With that said, there are certain things (many of which I'm seeing on some of the posted builds in this thread) which I want to try and avoid (no sort of priority order here):

1) Drop to 2x Dread Return
As with Pulp, I don't really feel safe dropping below 3x Dread Return; sometimes I find myself wishing for a Dread Return in the yard when I have none even at 3x, I can only imagine how much worse this situation would be with only 2x. However, if someone can provide me with a good argument for REALLY only needing two and if the statistics say that 2x is likely to be enough to consistently get what you need each game, then I could be convinced to do this.

2) Drop Breakthrough off the list
As said before in the thread, Breakthrough works against our "never go all-in and never rape our hands" mentality, but it seems like with our extended manabase (though mine is one lower than everyone else at 14 lands, I got used to playing at 12 lands before so I'm fairly comfortable with the smaller quantity of lands) we should be able to cast Breakthrough for 1 or even 2 if we need to keep certain cards back in our hands; the extra explosiveness of "Dredge 4x" really seems good and has saved me quite a bit in my past playing (though, I did play with more of an all-in mentality before, so my opinion on this could and might be entirely dumb).

3) Drop to 3x Narcomoeba
This, I almost refuse to do. I feel that we really need all the Narcs we can get, not to mention that Thugging a used Narcomoeba back on top of your library for it to come back into play a second time is great fun.

4) Drop to 3x Ichorid
I like me my Ichorids. However, this point is probably the first one I will budge on if required. I just really like my Ichorids. They're Narcomoebas 5 - 8 for me, but since you get multiple uses / sacrifices out of them, I think the playset isn't nearly as required as for Nacomoebas.


One last thing I'm debating on is this: Cephalid Sage Vs. Eternal Witness. I know Witness is not NEARLY as broken in this deck as in LED Dredge and Sage is generally better for us, but the reason I debate this is for sideboarding reasons. I really don't have much tournament experience (though I would like to start and this is my deck of choice for legacy), so my sideboarding skills are probably nil. However, what I'm wondering is, without Witness to recur milled sideboard cards back to your hand, does one find himself not getting the required cards to answer hate often?

That's basically it for me, I'm really eager to hear back from some of the people on here who seem to really know this version of the deck almost inside and out (DeathwingZERO, Pulp Fiction, Joe C, I'm looking at ya'll in particular, though I'll gladly accept help from anyone). Any other suggestions on my deck are also welcome.

Melchinoir: It really depends on what you feel comfortable running. If you took my most recent list and played it for several matches you could see where there are situations where breakthrough would be better than wraith, and situations where wraith is better than breakthrough.

Playing non-LED dredge has it limitations as there is no way to win turn 1. Turn 2 becomes more feasible by running wraith because it dredges for free turn 1 after dropping a imp or tribe, then turn 2 animating ichorid all in one card. I suggest trying out my list with zero breakthrough for awhile. See if you feel comfortable knowing that your turn 2's may not be a huge dredge for 24 cards if you resolve breakthough. Thats the give and take of it. Not running breakthough still allows early wins due to being able to feed ichorid with wraith, but running 2 wraith is sufficent in my opinion, as therapy is just a huge card since it gives meaning to your ichorids dying EOT anyway. Play around with a bunch of configurations and see what fits your style and metagame best. There is no true right or wrong list, unless of course you arent running dredge creatures at all :laugh:

Peace

Actually I just thought of something else. The OP for the thread said that Deep Analysis basically was terrible without LED and I can see that. However, in my own experience with playtesting, I find that with our high land count, we're pretty much able to get 2 lands into play very consistently. So then, couldn't Deep Analysis possibly be considered for recursion from the graveyard for extra consistency in case we find ourselves dredging into basically nothing or if we really desperately need a draw spell in some dire situation?

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Originally Posted by Melchinoir

Actually I just thought of something else. The OP for the thread said that Deep Analysis basically was terrible without LED and I can see that. However, in my own experience with playtesting, I find that with our high land count, we're pretty much able to get 2 lands into play very consistently. So then, couldn't Deep Analysis possibly be considered for recursion from the graveyard for extra consistency in case we find ourselves dredging into basically nothing or if we really desperately need a draw spell in some dire situation?

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I have noticed this also... But: what to take out for it? Deep ananylsis for LEDrid is awesome because lion's eye dumped the dredgers and the analysis in the grave for a one turn whammy at the cost of 3 life. Our manabase eats at out lifetotals more. Also, we can get through hate better than LED dredge,you may want to try putting analysis in the deck, but where are you goin to put it that it doesnt sacrifice utility or speed.

@Melchinoir: The list looks good. I don't think it would be possible to fit all of those cards in without sacrificing something important. If you really wanted to run that list as it is, I would just cut 1x Ichorid (going down to 3) and then put in Tribe #3. I think Tribe is more important than Cabal Therapy #4. But test out different configurations and see what works. I would not ever cut all of the Breakthroughs in the deck (pre-SB), as I just love the explosiveness. You could potentially cut Careful Study #4 and put in something else. Just test make different cuts and see what works.

Regarding Deep Analysis, I also have wanted to play 1-2 in the deck since it does end up with quite a few lands in play sometimes. But there will be times where it will greatly slow you down and will essentially be a dead card in your hand all the time, especially after a mulligan or two. Deep Analysis is just so situational. I suppose 1x could be tested out in the main, possibly in place of Breakthrough (if playing 3 or more), Careful Study, Ichorid (if playing 4), or Street Wraith. I just think DA opens the deck up to much to counters, and it seems like having additional Street Wraiths would just be better.

On a side note, someone in my meta smashed me in the face with this deck in my local tournament last week in the top 8. They were running both Breakthrough and Street Wraiths. The deck made top 4 (I left after I lost) in a tournament of around 26-28 people. He had the sickest fucking draws I have ever seen with the deck and some highly unlikely dredges. After the game he looked at me and said "I have never had the deck play like that before!!!!!!!!!" I had one turn the first game and lost on turn 2. Then lost on turn 4 the next game after removing 2x Bridges early on!!! It was nuts, sometimes this deck is just that good.

The thing about Deep Analysis is that, with Street Wraith, it has to be in your hand to get the draw effect. Generally you'll only get 1 Wraith in hand in 40% or 50% of games or so. With Deep Analysis, we want it in our graveyard; running only 1 to 2 Deep Analysis means that it will be in our graveyard to be Flashbacked much, much more often than it will be a dead card in our hand, and even then, we generally will be able to pitch it by any number of means. I don't think Street Wraith is just plain better than Analysis, nor do I think Analysis is a dead card often; they both come into play in somewhat different situations and serve different purposes imo.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like if we employ Deep Analysis, it should be as a pseudo-Cephalid Sage #2; think about it, Sage requires the use of Dread Return, which requires there to be at least 3 creatures on the field to be sacrificed. Generally, that's not too hard to manage for this deck when undisrupted, but there are definitely those times when we will struggle to keep three creatures on the field. Not only that, saccing three creatures is a heavy investment that could totally go for naught if the Dread Return gets countered. If we were to run just 1 Deep Analysis, it not only would be like Sage #2 in that we continue dredging to hopefully combo out and win that turn, but also the cost to flashback (tapping two mana and paying 3 life) is not as huge an investment, so it doesn't put us back as far if the Analysis doesn't resolve. Now, that 3 life could make the difference in some situations, but those situations already look grim regardless. Deep Analysis seems like it would just be a very nice consistency tool at 1 to 2 copies (more likely 1, like Sage). But, as Joe said, what to cut for it? I'm still in the process of playing around with Breakthrough vs. No Breakthrough, and with no Breakthroughs, the deck still runs quite well and I've made some pretty explosive goldfishes still, but I'm still not quite convinced about cutting them entirely.

Aside from that, I have a question for you guys? How often per game are ya'll needing to Therapy on average? I'm trying to see if I really do need that 4th Therapy, because I get at least 2 Therapies into my yard very consistently in goldfishing, and I don't know that I'd need more than that very often. If I CAN stick with 3 Therapies, then that possibly opens up a slot for 1 Deep Analysis if it proves to be good, or something else that I might want to put in.

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Originally Posted by Melchinoir

Aside from that, I have a question for you guys? How often per game are ya'll needing to Therapy on average? I'm trying to see if I really do need that 4th Therapy, because I get at least 2 Therapies into my yard very consistently in goldfishing, and I don't know that I'd need more than that very often. If I CAN stick with 3 Therapies, then that possibly opens up a slot for 1 Deep Analysis if it proves to be good, or something else that I might want to put in.

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Needing to therapy? I would therapy any chance you get. Like I said earlier, having therapy makes for your ihcorids EOT death worthwhile for you. Especially with running wraith in the deck to increase your turn 2 ichorid animations. I may consider dropping to 3 careful study and 1 sage and 2 dread return so I can run 3 wraith, 3 tribe, and 1 breakthrough

DA overall just has too much of a situational feel to it for me to want it back in the deck without LED and Breakthrough as 4 of. In order to use it, it has to be discarded (as I'm rarely ever hitting 4 lands), and if that's the case, chances are it's not as good as just digging out the lone Sage, or just plowing through draws with the other blue spells and Wraith.

Between Breakthrough, Careful Study, the discarders, and Wraith, there's already a good and heavy balance of dredge potential. Personally, I don't see any reason to go any further, as far as numbers go, a bad dredge or opening hand is the only way the deck is inconsistent, it's statistically sound otherwise. DA wouldn't really help that, as it needs both the mana, discard outlet, and dredgers to be effective.

I'll also admit I am very aggressive on my mulligans with this build. Because it's already giving up a little speed for consistency, I've found myself going down to 4 cards on occasions just to steer clear of absolute trash hands.

As far as specifics on the list, I'll come back to that after I shuffle it up and mess with it a bit.