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The way that Sylvan Library is written, you pick two cards in your hand that you drew this turn, and then then pay 4 life or put them back. So if you don't have any drawn cards in your hand, then you can't pick any, and don't loose any life. (And if you have 1, you choose to put it back, or lose 4 life.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
Ok, I gotcha! Thanks for the thorough breakdown though Emid.
So having the ability to draw up to 3 cards gives you the ability to abuse words of wilding better, regardless if drawn. So it looks like my best choices would be to
Pay 2 during upkeep, get 2x Bears and draw a card. This at least keeps my draw going and possible land drops, too.
Pay 3, get 3x Bears and no draw seems like it'd be only good once I've locked them out, I've got at least 1-2 card options in my hand, and I'm going for the kill.
I guess has a LOT to do with the matchup. Like, if I know I'm going against a slower, control deck with little evasion I'd be almost tempted to abuse up to 12 life gaining a card advantage over them. Against anything with burn would just seem like suicide :[
Ancient Tomb kinda bothers me though, even using it to dish out 2 Bears which is awesome, its just killing ya' man. It almost makes it impossible to draw with Library with the amount of life you're losing. If you tap that land just 3 times, you just lossed 6 life... then drawing "1" card from Library, you're down to 10 life. Suxor. In some matchups that life loss is expendable I know, but against a deck with burn or some evasion that could almost cost you the game methinks. With elephant grass and ghostly prison in my deck though the acceleration might be just what I need to shut them down first
If you want to draw your card per turn and make two bears, the best way to do that is to activate Words of Wilding in your draw step in response to the Sylvan Library trigger. That gets you 2 bears, a card, and doesn't cost any life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
Burn tends to be a rough matchup if the burn player has a decent curve. If they play all 1s and 2s, Chalice might be able to deal with them, otherwise you're racing with Smokestack or Bear Tokens/Factories to win. Ancient Tomb damage can be relevant (and it's often not a good idea to use it if you can avoid it, and probably only once or twice with Wilding in any matchup), but there simply isn't any better acceleration for your deck if you want to make the most out of Chalice @ 1.
Paying 3 to make 6 power worth of bears is correct 90% of the time. This keeps your hand size low for Ensnaring Bridge and ensures you have blockers for anything that can make it under your bridge. When the time is right (you have a ton of bears), you can simply choose to draw cards and attack. It's worth noting that the combo is usually lethal within 3-4 turns of coming online if the opponent doesn't answer it with a sweeper.
This is incorrect - here's the Sylvan Library Text:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
It doesn't matter whether the card was drawn from Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, or the Draw for the Turn.Quote:
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.
The 9/16/07 ruling clarifies that if there is a single card, then it must be chosen.
That ruling seems to be very inconsistent. The phrase cards drawn this turn should never be satisfied if no card draws result from the ability due to that part of the ability being predicated on cards being drawn from Sylvan Library. Who do I email to argue this point?Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Edit: 424.6 seems to cover this, but I still see variance. For example:
Sylvan Library's triggered ability would create an optional cost, one that is never actually paid. Since it isn't a mandatory cost, it shouldn't trigger as the cost is never paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comp Rule 424.6
I'm so confused, who is right? :**[
So what does this mean? You always lose life...err...?
Even under normal circumstances, you can choose to put the card you drew initially on top of the deck, rather one of the ones that were drawn with Sylvan Library, so it's clear that it, at minimum, includes the normal draw card.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
The triggered ability has a choice, either draw two, and then choose two to put back or keep, or don't do anything.
You don't loose life if you put back at least 2 cards, or if you put back all of the cards that you've drawn so far this turn.Quote:
So what does this mean? You always lose life...err...?
With just the Library and Words of Wilding that means you can:
1) Draw net 1 card, produce no bears, and lose no life.
2) Draw net 2 cards, produce no bears, and lose 4 life.
3) Draw net 3 cards, produce no bears, and lose 8 life.
4) Draw net 0 cards, produce 1-3 bears, and lose 0 life
5) Draw net 1 card, produce 1-2 bears, and lose 4 life.
6) Draw net 2 cards, produce 1 bear, and lose 8 life.
If you play the card that you initially drew before the Sylvan Library trigger resolves, and that card doesn't lead to a draw, and then replace the 2 draws, there are no drawn cards to choose from, and you'd loose 0 life. (This would work, for example if the initially drawn card is a summoner's pact.)
If you never drew two cards due to sylvan library effect, then the "if you do" ability will never trigger. Since so, you don't need to put any cards back. Then you got 2 bears and a card without life costs.
I'm pretty sure that replacing costs won't prevent the effect. Consider, for example, the interaction of Aven Mindcensor and Land Tax.
Land Tax, for example, uses the same "you may...if you do" construction:
Aven Mindcensor does a forced replacement of the search effect:Quote:
At the beginning of your upkeep, if an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for up to three basic land cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
But it's clear that the shuffle still happens:Quote:
If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead.
Quote:
5/1/2007 After the search is complete, if the effect has the player shuffle that library, the entire library is shuffled.
Ok, this seems to clear things up:
So,Quote:
From Gatherer:
9/16/2007 - If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.
If you chose to draw your card from the draw step, and then trigger the ability from WoW twice, you get two bears, and have to chose the card drawn before. So if you don't want to lose life, your options are:
- Draw 1 (duh)
- Draw 3, return 2 (duh˛)
- Draw 1, make 2 bears, return 1
- Draw 0, make 1 bear
- Draw 2, make 1 bear, return 2
- Make 3 bears
If you like, you may make 1 bear, draw 2 cards and return 1 for 4 life too...
EDIT: Sry Rufus, you were right all the time ^^
EDIT2: This is a small nerf, but the combo is still usefull while you can make 3 bears in a row...
Also, consider running Uba mask, so that you never draw cards xD
small edit: Draw 0, make 2 bears -> - Draw 1, make 2 bears, return 1
Something else I've never understood. A lot of people think that Sylvan Library brainstorms at each turn, but it does not, it just sensei tops (considering you don't lose life and don't replace the draws). I've never understood how it works in tourney, are you supposed to call a judge each time you play Sylvan Library ?
To my knowledge, it's the single card that makes a player do invisible stuff, without the opponent being able to check if he's not cheating. I mean, morph permanents are revealed when you bounce them or when the game stops. There must be a reason for that.
I always played Library like a Ponder (ala keeping my hand and my cards drawn this turn separate until I've finished resolving Library).
That's because you're a nice person. I mean you have no reason to piss off your judge, but that's kind of weird that you can legitimally force your judge to be behind you.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Ps : I hope you never shuffled (you told you played it as a ponder).
IMO the player should explicitly chose a drawn card, so, if it seems to you that he didn't (explictly chosen one of those), call the judges... Dunno about judges rulings though
It's closer to a top, but paying 4 life for a card can be quite good. And you're right, Sylvan Library is a mess. It's from Legends (pre-6th) when lots of stuff was messy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Most of the time, it will be in play from the beginning of the turn, and the cards can be kept physically separate. Technically, there's some information that can be gleaned by tracking whether cards are played from the 'just drawn' pile, but it's probably not that bad.
If it comes into play (or under your control) at after you've drawn cards, but before the draw step, then things get even stickier: For example, let's say that during the upkeep, I brainstorm (draw 3, put 2 on top of the deck), and then a Lost Auramancers expires, and I elect to put Sylvan Library into play.
(Hmm... for some reason I now want to see cards with "Cycling Discard a card at random")
No, you are supposed to not cheat. I've never experienced problems with Sylvan Library in tournaments, from both sides at the table. I usually keep my "real" hand in my left hand, and the "sylvan pseudo-hand" (tm) in my right to both give myself an easy overview of my cards, and make it explicit what's going on; usually how my opponents do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
But yes, if your opponent mesh the two "hands" together (casual players usually do this) call a judge, to clear up matters - it's both for your sake and your opponents even if they are legit.
Interesting, if you draw a card, and play that card before sylvan resolves, then you dont have to chose any cards... although, cycling cards would make you drawing cards... But we could possibly find a walkarround to that if we keep on thinking...Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Anyways, easier way seems to be uba mask, and it would sound really good with goblin welder, and we are back to Sun Tower =P
Landcyclers and tutors like Summoner's Pact come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
The unbanning of Metalworker has led me to start playing a green-splash Stax build built around Winter Orb. Here's my list, at current.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Winter Orb
3 Powder Keg
4 Metalworker
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
SB:
4 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
2 City of Solitude
4 Drop of Honey
3 Loaming Shaman
1 Powder Keg
The point is to abuse Winter Orb by exploiting the untap ability of Garruk and the mana ability of Metalworker, and it's full of small synergies that make it function. Garruk and Smokestack, Garruk and Winter Orb, Metalworker and Winter Orb, Garruk and Tangle Wire, Tangle Wire and Winter Orb, Trinisphere and Winter Orb, Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, Crucible and Wasteland, Crucible and Smokestack, etc. The deck kills with Beast tokens, Metalworker, and Factory.
The board intends to shore up weaknesses. Grip is versatile and strong. Drop of Honey is my recent replacement for Arboria against fast aggro, and it's invaluable on the draw. (Garruk/Arboria is neat, though.) Loaming Shaman is yard hate and a midrange threat all in one.
Powder Keg has proven to be necessary, though in what number I'm still testing. Keg kills Vial and is the closest thing this deck has to actual threat removal.
The deck has proven to be incredible when I'm not staring down a quick horde of threats, and I'm looking for clever ways to stymie this problem, particularly in game one in the form of something maindeckable.
Is it sad that I was excited for a green stax build, but not because of Metalworker, and entirely because of Rampaging Baloths... It's probably isn't worth the slot, but it seemed to fit the theme, and land early with Garruk. As for stopping early game threats, why not Elephant Grass for a turn or 2? Or the ever present Tarmogoyf...