Why don't you play Ponder instead of Preordain?
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Why don't you play Ponder instead of Preordain?
It's Ponder, typo error :P
Went 3-1 split top 4. Losses were to Spiral Tide drawing double Wastelands 2 games. I didn't like Hymn to Tourach main. Delvers were insane. I'll look into Delvers in this deck/archetype for the next few days/weeks. I went into a lot of situation where Delver + Delver/Clique/Tombstalker puts up a 2-turn clock with a bolt in hand.
Optimal lines of play are ideally: turn 1 Stifle/Brainstorm, Turn 2 Delver + Stifle/Brainstorm/Snare, flip Delver, Turn 3 Hymn/Bolt/Ponder/Delver/Clique, Turn 4 Tombstalker and finish them off.
Hi guys,
I'm currently playing nearly the same version of this deck ("dreadless dreadstalker" ;-) as Metalworker and i'm pondering on the following thing at the moment:
My only difference to Metalworker's list is -3x Vendilion Clique and +3x Dismember to cope with opposing fatties (such as knight of reliquary (--> maze just sucks) or tombstalker).
How do you handle them preboard? Maverick has so much cards we won't see on the battelfield, so it often comes to the point, where we can't counter a knight, which brings them the victory.
I've been testing mainly against maverick (only preboard games) and this is a problem i'm facing regularly (even with Dismember), so i'm interested in your experience...
As you said, i'm not sure if this is the right thread, since our decks are wothout Dreadnoughts, but your startet it :-P
Just reading your last post again and i was wondering if you found an alternative for the hymns main. I must say, i'm a fan of them. It's fun to screw them with Stifles and wWstelands and ruin there hands with hymn at the same time. true tempo play ;-)
I went back to the deck's roots, because the UBr nought-less lists were feeling too much of a tempo/control list than what the deck originally is. The original philosophy of the deck is to smash and win. It was a little mentally tiring playing the noughtless lists in the past even thought the heavier tempo-shell was still great. But the deck is really played as a tempo/combo shell (using tempo only to protect your win-conditions). Since most Legacy decks these days are still decks that want to kill you, it's a little tiring playing more alongside the tempo/control role, so I'm back to the roots of the deck :)
I think Delver completely changed how the deck could function (a big reason why I decide to test the older lists/philosophy). The traditional list was more of a all-in 'tempo' deck. It had the tempo role only to resolve and push Dreadstalkers to victory, but without enough protection, you can be very set back despite gaining some tempo. With Delver, your beaters of Delver+Tombstalker really backup the tempo gameplan, so that's your plan B in case your plan A on winning with Dreadstalkers fail.
I moved back to 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Noughts and 3 Vision Charms. This allows us to use Stifles aggressively if we want to play the tempo gameplan. I really love Clique but I think after testing Delver, I prefer the 1 mana v.s. 3 mana. This deck really just functions off 2 lands
The list is trying to win in 2 ways:
1) Tempo plan backed with Delver + Stalker (if you get 2 Delver or 1 Delver + 1 Tombstalker to stick), it's a very fast 2-3 turn clock
2) Thoughtseize/Daze/Fow riding the back of a tombstalker/dreadnought..
Here's the list:
Lands: 18
4 Delta
4 Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
Cantrip: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Dudes: 11
4 Delver
4 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Protection/Permission: 16
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Snuff Out
Nought-enablers/disruption: 7
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
SB:
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
3 Extirpate
3 Submerge
2 EE
2 Spell Pierce
3 flex slots (Hymn/Duress, Hymn sucks maindeck for this deck :/)
The spell Pierce over Spell snare because the only 2cmc thing you should care about is GFTT/Pridemage/Counterbalance, which are dealt equally with a pre-emptive Thoughtseize or by Daze/FoW. You worry about removal/cantrip/Top more than GFTT/Pridemage/Counterbalance/Goyf, all of which aren't popular right now.
Nice list. Sometimes i also feel like going back to the nought would be the right thing. However, at the moment i'm playing a very tempo oriented build of TA. If this brings me disappointing results, maybe i'll also stick to nought again.
How does it work out? Any (perhaps competitive) results?
Have you ever tried Mother of Runes in this shell?
It acts like counterbalance by protecting your big threats but also can act like a Goyf wall too, although without the upside of killing anything.
My friend played a UGw build with Goyfs and Motther in the past. It was really solid. He called it Noughty Mom. I think the sdeck is still good but it definitely doesn't fall under the dreadstalker philosophy. In fact I realized all the past builds I've posted tended to drift away from the combo-tempo philosophy of the deck. I am going back to the roots. Delver really help I believe. I will test and play the list tomorrow in my local and report any thoughts.
Peace. Benie (OP) you need to play this deck! It's always a deck in my heart that I don't sleeve out because Dreadnought always seem to meet an unhappy meta at every big phase in Legacy in the past: Counterbalanace, then Pridemage, then Misstep, but now it's time to sleeve the beast out again.
This deck looks great. It's a pity that I don't have dreadnoughts. All of your card-choices look very reasonable.
Thoughtseize over Hymn, because Thoughtseize is better at protecting your beaters.
Spell Pierce over Snare, since your beaters are big enough to deal with Gofys.
But why Snuff Out over Dismember?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Got a list? Sounds interesting
@buddha:
Trade for Noughts when they're still cheap now (MM is gone so Dreadstill, Dreadnought decks can be more viable again).
I changed my list a little bit but I'll post it and any results after today.
I'm always mixed on Snuff Out v.s. Dismember. You are really looking at a few things when you're debating on Snuff Out/Dismember.
1) Do you want to kill Bob
2) Do you want to kill Tombstalker
3) Do you want to kill KotR/Pridemage/Goyf/non-Bob/non-Tombstalker etc
4) Do you want to pay 1 mana or none.
For me, 4) always weighs out in the end. The deck is really mana hungry when playing out turns 1-2 using Daze/FoW/Snuff Outs to gain an extra 0.5-1 turn. Since my meta doesn't play both Bob/Tombstalker, I opted for Snuff Out. There are some nice things about Snuff Out being entirely free. You can Thoughtseize/Snuff Out on the same turn or Wasteland/Snuff Out on turn 2 with blue mana floating for Pierce/Brainstorm/Stifle.
But if you fear Tombstalker/Bobs more (and in fact Tombstalker/Bobs are much bigger threats than KotR/Pridemage/Goyf), then feel free to run Dismember. My meta isn't bob/tombstalkers at the moment, that's why I went with Snuff Outs. But the tweaked list I'm playing today is running neither.
Yeah, I really want to play this deck... But last year I sold my collection and now I only own LED-Dredge... Maybe if I do well next week in Amsterdam I will get some more cards so I will work again on this baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Here's the latest list that I felt comfortable playing. We only had 6 players so it was more like playtesting games last weekend:
LANDS: 18
4 Delta
2 Misty
2 Marsh Flats
4 Seas
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
DUDES: 11
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
3 Dreadnought
1 Clique
PERMISSION: 14
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
CANTRIPS: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
OTHERS: 9
2 Snuff Out (should have been dismember but I don't own any)
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
SB: 15
2 EE
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Perish (weakest slot)
2 Submerge
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Clique
A few notes about the list and playing the deck out:
1) 4 Delvers has definitely pushed this deck from Tier 2 to 2.5 to Tier 2 to 1.5 (IMO). Delver is an unsituational beater in the deck that demands attention (as much attention as the traditional Dreadstalkers). With the disruption+tempo package, you can sometimes easily steal wins with a turn 1 Delver.
2) I played a 3/3 Tombstalker/Dreadnought split because despite having 3 Vision Charms and 8 cantrips, I really hate seeing double Tombstalkers/Dreadnoughts. This is a deck where you play cantrips to continue powering a strong gameplan, rather than to fix your draws. I replaced the 4th Tombstalker with a lone clique, which functioned as both a disruption/protection-for Dreadstalkers, and a win-condition (more on that later)
3) 2 Spell Pierces were pretty impressive in the maindeck. I've tried all kinds of spells in this 2 slots (Hymns, Removal, Snares) but I'm pretty sold on the Pierces. It helps keep your Delver/Stalker AND Dreadnoughts alive, while being able to hit game one broken non-creature spells (Top, Natural Order, combo etc). I feel that 2 is the right amount. 3 or more Pierce in the maindeck might create dead draws against heavier aggro matchups (something you want to avoid since your other permission suite is still solid in game 1)
4) The more I play around with the list, the more I realize that the safest turn to ensure Dreadstalker is not turn 2 (unless you open with Thoughtseize into Daze/FoW) but turn 3. With turn 3, you can Stifle/Nought, keeping a mana open for Vision Charm/Pierce/Brainstorm/Stifle. This maximzes your chances of resolving dreadnought safely (on top of Daze/FoW/Thoughtseize). As a result, playing the deck is more than just thinking how you should pressure your opponents while trying to win fast, but rather, it's really about knowing what your deck can do during turns 1 to 2 before going to the critical turn 3 to safely resolve Dreadstalkers.
To emphasize point 4), the real beauty of the deck from what I've been testing is the dense turn 1 plays you can play out without running into any risk of passing the turn and losing tempo. There are situations when playing Tempo Thresh where you play land-go and your opponent plays around Stifle, therefore potentially killing a turn (brainstorming EOT turn 1 is often a bad play although it's not always a bad play depending on the situation). This deck can do almost everything that Tempo Thresh can on turn 1, but has the added ability to run out an additional Thoughtseize plays on turns 1-2 depending on your hand. Thoughtseize not only disrupts an opponent, but it provides information and protects your win-con, so it benefits doubly in those respects, while being able to fit very tightly in the early turn 1-2s.
Another little note with the deck is: the list above is entirely Spell Snare free. My friend was pointing that out to me that he felt Spell Snares were useless against me, and it only then occured to me that the list is 2-cmc free. This is a slight plus in a meta of plentiful of Snapcaster+Snares.
A few thoughts that I've been having and will be testing out when I have time:
1) I have only tested 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm in this list and I'm intending to try out Preordain. With 8 shuffle effects, I feel that sometimes Ponder was simply not finding the correct card that I wanted. The weakness of Dreadstalker is that it can still run into terrible dead draws (drawing Noughts and double Tombstalkers) and Ponder sometimes creates those situations where you would see a card you need but a card that you don't need, which you can't afford to shuffle it out. I feel that this deck is really digging for one critical spell (whether it's Pierce/Thoughtseize/Stifle/Vision Charm/Dreadstalker) so I'll be giving Preordain some playtesting.
2) I feel that the deck needs 19 lands. Despite being so 1cmc heavy, this deck needs to hit 2-lands to shine whereas Tempo Thresh can still function on 1 land for most parts. The deck needs to hit 3 lands to secure very safe casting of Tombstalker/Dreadnought. I'll be reworking to see if I can fit the 19th land. I was thinking of dropping 2 Dismember for the 19th land and 3rd Pierce but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that. I do feel that 2 Dismember + 8 cantrips may sometimes not be enough anyway in game 1 against the more problematic aggro matchups so it's better to just streamline the maindeck in being aggressive and then board accordingly against aggro with the SB.
Before this weekend, I was testing the UBr build for a good month. It felt good on paper, but the 3-color manabase just does not work if you're playing Tombstalkers and 18 lands (even with 8 cantrips). It's also a reason why most Team American lists have gone up to 20+ lands because Tombstalker puts a constraint on the manabase. I decided to give up on the UBr build despite lightning bolt being incredible with a maindeck of Delver + Tombstalker with bolt reach, and bolt hitting almost everything and not being dead in the meta right now.
I have been playtesting this deck lately, and I'm wondering if Dark Confidant could be included again. If so, what would a version with Dark Confidant look like?
To my knowledge, Dark Confidant has never been a part of the deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrum
Even though Bob is a great card, he doesn't belong in this deck. This is a tempo-based semi-combo deck. Playing Dark Confidant on turn two is counter productive. You should either be playing a game winning thread or be disrupting the opponent in order to accomplish the former goal asap.
I've been looking into this deck and I'm a little confused about vision charm. If you play a dreadnaught and phase it out before its trigger resolves, does it phase back in as a dreadnaught with no trigger?
That is correct. With Phyrexian Dreadnought's triggered ability on the stack, you phase it out with Vision Charm. Since the Dreadnought is no longer in play, the trigger will 'fizzle.' Phasing does not trigger "enters the battlefield" effects, so the Dreadnought comes back onto the battlefield ready to go.
Hollywood explained it, essentially phasing is a mechanic on its own, when an object phases in and out, it's doing exactly what the card says i.e. phasing. All Auras/equipments attached to the phasing object phases out with it as well, so they do not fall off, unlike the case for 'coming into play/entering the battlefield'.
Another important thing to note is that Vision Charm acts a little differently from Stifle in regards to the Stiflenought plan. For people wishing to learn and pick up the deck, Vision Charm provides additional benefit that Stifle does not when you are on the Stiflenought plan.
Vision Charm phases Dreadnought out, so that on your turn and your opponent's turn, the resolved Dreadnought is no longer in play, hence immune to any removal until your next untap phase where it phases back in after your upkeep. At this point, you have mana open for either digging with a Brainstorm or countering removal with Spell Pierce or Stifling an EE/Pridemage trigger or using another Vision Charm to phase Dreadnought out in response to removal.
Vision Charm after a resolved Stiflenought is essentially a 1cmc spell that protects Dreadnought from removal. StP dreadnought in response Vision Charm etc.
There are some cases where you should use Stifle instead of Vision Charm for your stiflenought plan if you have both charm/stifle in hand. Usually I will use Stifles if I need Dreadnought to block a turn (usually in the mid-game) or I have previously casted Thoughtseize and found no removal in my opponent's hand. This way, when you untap you can potentially still have a Vision Charm in hand against an opponent's removal if he draws it a turn later.
Some subtleties but they are important when playing the deck more optimally. I still make a number of mistakes. I used to scorn a little when I draw multiple Charms, but saving them in your hand for cantrips digging into multiple Dreadnoughts/Stalkers or feeding them towards a Brainstorm are all decent plays. Don't blow your Vision Charms needlessly the way blowing cantrips needlessly is a bad play. Another note with the deck with my configuration below is: the safest turn to resolve Dread/stalker is on turn 3. If you have a bunch of Daze/FoW/Thoughtseize in hand, you can usually go all out for a turn 2 Dread/stalker, but on turn 3 you should be able to guarantee safer resolved Dread/stalker, keeping the 3rd mana open for Brainstorm/Pierce/Vision Charm.
Anyway, here's the latest list that I've been tweaking last week. I was uncomfortable with 18 lands for the deck, and wanted to ensure that I hit at least 1-2 lands more frequently by turn 2. Aside from the added 19th land and 9th cantrip (taking the slots of 2 Dismember that I've moved to the board allowing for a more aggressive game-one playout), the list is essentially the same ever since Delver has been spoiled. And all these Delver/Stalker/nought lists floating around out there, it's essentially Dreadstalker :P
19 Lands:
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
9 Cantrip:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain (was considering 1 Top instead of Preordain but I wanted straightforward consistency with FoW and Delver)
11 Dudes:
4 Delver
4 Tombstalker (I cut the lone clique for the 4th Stalker again. Clique just isn't too good in this deck when you're trying to kill by turn 4)
3 Dreadnought
14 Permission:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Fow
2 Spell Pierce (2 feels like the optimal number from many testing)
7 Others:
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
15 Sideboard:
3 Submerge
2 EE
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
How has a build like that been working out for you tournament wise? I'm trying to build something for this weekend and I'm debating a dreadstalker build vs. UB Tempo with snapcaster, delver, and stalker.
Our locals are small 10-14 players. I've had successes and failures with the deck. I've succeeded more with the recent straight-foward UB build as opposed to the UBr build with Bolts MD and lavamancers/REBs/Firespout in the SB. I Top 4'd three times in about 5-6 tourneys but given the small sample size it probably isn't very empirical evidence. The deck does play smoothly and strong compared to the old lists without Delvers.
Whether it is better than UB snapcaster + delver/stalker I don't know because I have not tested those lists, but i know that this is a much more aggressive list than regular Tempo lists that I have played in the past (Canadian, UB Faeries etc).
The deck can shit on itself when you draw multiple Stalkers or Dreadnoughts or have a lone-dreadnought answered after blowing resources, but I blame it more on myself for not knowing how to pilot my plays correctly and not optimizing card-slots and deckspace.
I've been messing around with a build on MTGO. Testing has been minimal so far, but I plan on doing much more over the weekend. I like the Torpor Orb idea to shut off all those SFM's and Snappys running around, not to mention V Clique.
I haven't really missed the charm effects, spend early turns disrupting their removal or save counters to protect your dude much like New Horizons did in the past.
Here is my list. (Sorry no card links atm)
Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures (10)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnough
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hunted Horror
Artifact (4)
4 Torpor Orb
Sorcery (11)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
Instants (15)
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare (Maybe this should be Spell Pierce?)
Sideboard (15) - still needs work imo
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Go for the Throat
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Energy Flux
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor