It seems kind of limited though since this deck runs so few targets. We already have Genesis for recursion so I just don't see what it gets us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman
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It seems kind of limited though since this deck runs so few targets. We already have Genesis for recursion so I just don't see what it gets us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman
I've been testing more and more. With the anger build that is.
And my games stay looking like eot clique into more exalted creatures. I never need the haste since all the flash cards actually got semi haste.
As for mana fixing I never really needed the hierarchs to be able to tap at once. Just be able to give me exalted.
I did up the count to 20 land. 19 was a little tight. 3 ponders now.
I will test some more with anger but I'm not sold by far.
I haven't done that much testing yet, but I experience the same.
But, in my original build I wasn't quite happy with Tradewind Rider, but with Anger it gets a lot better, I've only did limited testing with it, but at first sight it's quite viable.
Moved to Established. Meets criteria.
Thank you a ton Bardo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
I played a bit more tonight and I realized how Rhox War Monk really needs to stay in. Life Gain just pulls you out of spots. This deck isn't blistering fast so being able to recover is needed, imo.
I kinda like Kitchen Finks in that slot, he can gain you less life, but can come back after mass destruction effects.
From my testing, I agree with Jak
Rhox War Monk needs to be a 1-of in case of emergency lifelink.
I run 2 Pridemage + 1 Trygon main against all the game1s hate against CB-Top and any other form of artifacts/enchantments.
2 Cliques is all you need, and 3 Sprites is much better than 4 Sprites. Pitching Sprite to Force via tutoring is really tech, and against Thresh, I love playing T1 Noble Hierach and following up with Survival with Daze protection. If they FOW, you FOW back, and EOT discard and go nuts. More importantly, such a play also dodges some hate. Suppose they oblivion ring or bring out Trygon, you could EOT discard for Quasali Pridemage/Trygon (against Oring), or head for Sower (against Trygon). The only deal you can't deal with is Grips, but that's fine since it's a 1-1, and you have 3 more Survival + 1 Witness to deal with it.
I'm pretty sure this deck beats the shit out of Dreadstill. You have answers for everything, and if you resolve Survival, you can just go nuts with multiple Quasalis, and if they even attempt to EE for 2, you just tutor up EWitness. I agree with the anger build although I can see it being less effective against opposing Wastelands, but hasty Predators and Goyfs add so much more speed to the deck that it deserves the Anger spot. Goyfs are tremendously huge in this build. Seriously, like 6/7, 7/8 for most of the time due to exalted.
That's actually rather poor justification to run Rhox War Monk itself. If you're in need of emergency life gain, then immediate answers are a lot better (assuming you don't have haste) than War Monk as you have to wait a turn to attack and then block the following turn. If that's the case, then Kitchen Finks, Spike Feeder, or Loxodon Hierarch are all better.
But war monk allows you to keep pushing pressure on the opponent and keep gaining more and more life. In my meta I simpy love him because of all the sligh decks running around. Also pitches to fow :x
I'm not saying he's bad by any means, and I'm well aware of what it's capable of. But as a utility creature he is terrible given the scenarios people are describing they want him in. If you're in need of emergency lifegain, then you need it immediately. If this is the case, there are very few scenarios that are taking place:
- You're playing against Burn/Sligh.
- You're staring at lethal on the other side of the board.
If it's the first case, then War Monk won't do anything. You most likely die during their next turn unless you happen to have haste. If you do, you'll still most likely die to a resolved Price of Progress as you'll have 4-5 duals in play just to cast him. Having a life gain source that you can use immediately and then recur is far more effective here. He's only really good here if you manage to stick him when you're in a comfortable position anyway. At that point, any life gain creature would work just fine.
In the second scenario, there has to be a few conditions met in order for War Monk to be stronger than a different life gainer. The first is that he is capable of blocking, meaning you're not dealing with flyers or something. The second is that even with the additional body you're still not going to die. In the first, you can just as easily find a flyer/Winged Coatl. In the second, if you're staring at an army and need to gain life, not only would a life gainer like Feeder/Hierarch be stronger here, but I'd go as far to say something like Sower would be as well.
Also if it comes to it, just StP one of your own attacking Goyfs with damage on the stack. Between exalted and Rafiq, that's fine. Again, I have no problems with War Monk, but he really doesn't fit the bill for what you're looking for. Given the situations, it seems like you feel like you're behind in the game and need to grab War Monk asap. If that's the case, then you either need to retool the deck to handle aggro better or use a different slot. Either way, I still don't think life gain is strong enough to warrant maindeck slots in this metagame.
I do think a life gain slot is warranted. I see a ton of aggro decks and having a game winning card in the main deck is worth it, imo.
Now, Rhox can pull you out of shit just as well as a Loxodon Hierarch. With Survival, both end up costing 5 mana to tutor up and gain life. Rhox: Get Anger, Tutor for Rhox, play=5 mana. Loxodon: Tutor for Loxodon, play=5 mana.
There is the other 3 mana life gainers, but they just feel weak against stuff like Goblins where I need them to be strong. Rhox continually gains life, pitches to Force, and is a decent sized beater if I ever happen to draw him.
Especially against Goblins it prefer Kitchen Finks, as it kills Piledriver AND comes back for another kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
War Monk just (kills a creature and) dies randomly after giving you 3 life.
Only drawback of the Finks is, that they are not pitch-able to Force.
How does it die randomly? The only thing that Finks does better than it is block Piledriver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiant
Adding Anger really doesn't hurt the manabase at all and I think it helps the deck enough to warrant the inclusion.
20 Lands
4 Survival
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Anger
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rafiq
1 Loxodon Hierarch
SB
3 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage
4 Orim's Chant
1 Loxodon Hierarch
Basically Di's list except I still don't want to drop the life gainer :)
Jak, my list is almost identical but with the following changes
-1 Rafiq
-1 Eternal Witness
+1 Ponder
+1 Quasali Pridemage
It seems to me at least that Rafiq is tremendously clunky although he is really good at winning games. However, more games are won through Rafiq + Flyers and our flyers are all easily destroyed. I would rather win with Goyfs than Rafiq. It's difficult to resolve Rafiq against Daze effects/FOW.
I like 2 Pridemage main since they deal with everything in the format. If you resolve Pridemage before CB, then you're in as dangerous a shape as they resolve CB (save sprites against STP).
I find Genesis redundant, but I can see how amazing he'll be in the mid-game, although this deck can win much consistently before the mid-game if survival is online.
I'm curious as to how this deck does against Dreadstill (packing Goyfs + Swords). I think we're superior post-board and I can see how Witness is going to be key in this matchup against EE and opposing Grips.
Against combo, I much prefer to board in: 2 Gaddock Teeg and 3 Meddling Mage than rely on Orim's Chant. Chant seems very narrow and I think Teeg also provides great answer against Landstill, not to mention Flash >>> Standstill lol.
I recommend SBing 2 Jittes, which completely owns burn and Goblins. We have flyers to further abuse Jitte. This deck is very good, and I like the inclusion of Anger. Hasty Predator and Goyfs is definitely a bonus, but more importantly, with a heavy forest (3 basic forest) build, one can fight through moon with Noble Hierarch and Survival, and yet tutor answers that have haste without Taiga (thanks to Blood Moon). It would suck if our only Taiga is wasted away. I think 2 Taiga is definitely too clunky, but 1 Taiga seems to not abuse Anger as much in such situations. Regardless, this deck does not need anger to function. This deck does not need Survival to function, and akin to Elf-Survival, it's the strength of the deck to be able to play without Survival.
Hmm, I think Eternal Witness deserves its slot. It just has so many uses like recurring SB hate, Survivals, Swords, a counter when you need to, or getting a Goyf to swing for lethal. I think it is better than the 3rd arti/enchant removal.
Rafiq can end games with Goyf too. It is hard to turn down something that comes out of nowhere to help Goyfs deal 14 damage. It doesn't need to be in there though, I just like it.
The only thing I didn't like about boarding in Teegs and Mages is that makes a lot of disruption at 2cc. That ends up being slow sometimes. With 4 FoW, 4 Chant, 3 Sprite, 3 Mage, and 2 Clique, it is hard to lose.
Jittes are perfect! I wanted that continual life gain and this is it. I threw in three and it is great all around.
I have also been fine with one Taiga. Like you said, we don't need it so not getting it is fine. I am really happy with how the list is running. The additional cantrips help. I might try something like Waikiki's.
Well the list you posted jak -hierarch +ponder is actually my list.
Also the rhox war monk side simply wins vs sligh and goblins. I have never lost a g2 and g3 vs those decks. THey just gain the life you need. Who cares if he doesn't block. You should not be blocking you should be taking them down. Attack. Together with the exalted and stuff your goyf/monk army should be way stronger then their army together with the hydroblasts you sided in.
Jittes are slow and not needed imo.
I don't like the idea of jitte's either, seems WAY too slow and quite unnesessary to me.
But I'm not a fan of the war monk either. Di made some goodpoints about it, if I play a creature in that role, I want life right away not when it attacks, that's way too conditional for me. Sure it has an nice body (not being sexual here...), but Loxodon Hierarch and Kitchen Finks do too plus thay have extra's.
@ crz87: I think Rafiq is worth it to be played in this deck. He makes everything you play huge an beat like hell, as a one of to be tutored up in dire moments, he's golden. Leave him out an you'll miss him to swing games in your advantage.
Deck looks good, but this version is weaker preboard vs. Combo since we don't run any discardeffects.
What card's are you running in the side to fight combo?
Teeg and Chants?
check the openings post
pre board we have sprites + fows
after board we have Meddling mage/chant + sprite + fows
I was checking an other thread and stumbled upon dueling grounds. What use can this card be for us pre-board vs goblins/ichorid/any other deck with horde of creatures.
Our creatures are damn strong with all the exalted. Can this card be used?