All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

GP Flash was actually fairly interesting as an exercise in how to break the most broken combo Wizards has ever made.

But we don't have a GP coming up, and most cards on the banned list don't come anywhere near the power level of Flash.

I look at Vintage with goddamn envy. Wizards is constantly tinkering with the Vintage list in order to try and find more dynamic configurations. Sure, some of their moves, like unbanning Gush, turn out to be bad ideas. They lead to a brief period of dominance and then they get banned again. Is it the end of the world? No. It just means anyone with a double digit pulse can actually follow and enjoy the format.

What evidence is there to suggest that anyone would be lost? Does Vintage lose people, or has it attracted more people with the shaking up of the format? Did Legacy lose people over Flash or did it draw attention to the format?

Here's the thing;

When they first separated the list, everyone- and I mean everyone, whether you were for or against the changes- said the cards they chose to ban and unban were random as fuck. People were deeply upset that they banned cards that weren't even a blip on the 1.5 radar like Oath, Land Tax and Hermit Druid, while leaving off tutors and fast mana that enabled Tendrils-combo to exist in the format for the first time.

Even Wizards themselves said that the list was just an asspull, trying out a few things and saving tinkering for a later date.

It's five years later. Legacy has, by my count, endured a total of five changes. One of those was the banning of Flash, a card that only existed, functionally, for a month. One of those was the banning of Imperial Seal, which didn't actually legally exist in the format prior to being banned. One card banned, Shahrazad, saw no play and was banned due to speculative hypothetical asshattery. Two cards unbanned, Mind over Matter and Replenish, have seen scant fringe play.

No other format with a wide cardpool has received so little development attention, even the casual formats like Prismatic. Legacy "works" in that the same deck that was the best strategy two years ago is still the best strategy, and other decks have some relevant chance of competing with said best deck.

It's also boring as fuck.

Nothing bad would happen from three months that are actually distinguishable in some way from the three months preceding them in Legacy play.

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That reasoning is a shit poor one for unbanning cards, only for them to be broken and have to wait on Wizards to ban them again.

If the format is becoming too boring, and you envy Vintage... why not go play Vintage?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

GP: Flash, Legacy development, I am infallable.

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Mostly agree with the comments. The lack of format development can be read in two ways. The first, is that WotC is simply ignoring the format since it's not highly visible nor is it highly cantancerous (meaning no outright repeatable dominating card/strategy). Conversely, it could also mean that the format is structured as such that with the wide diversity in strategies, it's really healthy.

Innovation in the format has largely stopped about 3 years ago, after it was determined that Goblins can and will prey on badly built decks. Thresh was a good push towards defining the format as cost efficient and tempo driven.

I dare say that the majority of format development has been shaped by newer sets. Goyf outdated the majority of creature strategies. Counterbalance shifted the traditional control deck to become a leaner, meaner fighting machine. Planeswalkers open up a possibility of entirely new control designs (Landstill & ilk). Ad Nauseum pushes the envelope of Storm in ways that remind the format to not forget about it. Ichorid/Affinity take the aggro crown and put everyone on tilt.

Speculation regarding the upcoming B&R announcement is probably just an excercise in futility. Most of the top decks don't claim to have more than 60+% matchup across the entire metagame slice, and is evident by the lack of any single dominating deck. The fact is that most metagame are extremely isolated between regions, and that metagame decks in one city get blown out in other cities.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

That reasoning is a shit poor one for unbanning cards, only for them to be broken and have to wait on Wizards to ban them again.

If the format is becoming too boring, and you envy Vintage... why not go play Vintage? Stop trying to have the Legacy world cater to you, IBA.

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No. See, things being boring is the absolute only reason to change anything about a game. Every other reason, when examined in depth, and every other complaint comes down to two conflicting facts;

1) Games should be entertaining

2) The given issue is making it less entertaining.

So saying that it doesn't matter if shit is boring is absolutely retarded.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

No. See, things being boring is the absolute only reason to change anything about a game. Every other reason, when examined in depth, and every other complaint comes down to two conflicting facts;

1) Games should be entertaining

2) The given issue is making it less entertaining.

So saying that it doesn't matter if shit is boring is absolutely retarded.

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Except that you are assuming that Legacy is boring for everyone and if that were the case, I'd agree. Again, stop trying to take control of the Legacy format.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

No. See, things being boring is the absolute only reason to change anything about a game. Every other reason, when examined in depth, and every other complaint comes down to two conflicting facts;

1) Games should be entertaining

2) The given issue is making it less entertaining.

So saying that it doesn't matter if shit is boring is absolutely retarded.

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Do you even like Magic?

You're saying you're envious of Vintage, the format of taking turns watching each other masturbate...but Legacy is boring? Legacy, with tens of viable decks rather than 3? Not to mention the frequent fluctuations in meta (rise of Merfolk etc)? Yeah, total zzzzs...

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

IBA is just looking for attention. When he posts, flocks of sheep will quote him and then kiss his ass as if he was some sort of god. Nothing special, really.

Edit: Oh, I suppose I'll stay on topic. I expect that if SDT is to be banned it would be for the same reason as it was in Extended. I'm wondering why it happened in extended and not Legacy though... Wizards hates this format?

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Because they really banned Sensei's Divining Top for power-level reasons. It's just that they can safely ban a combo piece for power reasons, because the players will take that as an accomplishment, but they can't do the same when they ban a stalling control piece, because the players affected take it as if they were deprived of a divine right or something, so they have to resort to euphemisms instead. :eek:

They sure know their players. :cool:

Henceforth, all discussion of "ban this" and "unban that" will exist in this thread only. Discussions elsewhere will be aggressively moderated

Ban Goyf, Top and LED = best format ever.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

So why should your opinion be worth considering? You've yet to prove to me that Legacy is "boring". Don't preach semantics or other nonsense as I don't care about it.

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If no one's opinions were worth considering, then why is this even a thread? The question was "what needs to be changed with b/r". IBA gave his opinion as to what and why. That seems fine by me. So far as I can tell, he hasn't argued his opinion is truth.

I actually agree with him in this. The format has become somewhat stagnant and there's a lot on the B/R list that could easily come off. Sure, it might have an impact on the format, but would that impact be any worse that Tarmogoyf? The power level of the cards on the B/R list was considered prior to power levels in general increasing. So give them a shot, what's the big deal? As IBA pointed out, the worst thing that happens is they get banned a few months down the line.

EDIT: This post is subtitled "Look Kids, it's Landstill, Threshold, and Goblins!"
EDITEDIT: Yes I realize there are other decks, but still...

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Originally Posted by tivadar

If no one's opinions were worth considering, then why is this even a thread?

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Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that. I did, however, ask why his opinion should be worth considering.

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The question was "what needs to be changed with b/r". IBA gave his opinion as to what and why. That seems fine by me. So far as I can tell, he hasn't argued his opinion is truth.

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He came off as suggesting more merit to his opinion as opposed to others. You know, in his own IBA way.

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I actually agree with him in this. The format has become somewhat stagnant and there's a lot on the B/R list that could easily come off. Sure, it might have an impact on the format, but would that impact be any worse that Tarmogoyf? The power level of the cards on the B/R list was considered prior to power levels in general increasing. So give them a shot, what's the big deal? As IBA pointed out, the worst thing that happens is they get banned a few months down the line.

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I disagree on the stagnant part. One look at the DTB list and Established decks will show quite a few many decks a player can construct and/or try. Is this same variety present in Vintage?

I'd rather not have those few months of headache, slippery slope, ect. Also, which cards did you have in mind for unbanning?

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Originally Posted by Wrath_Of_Houlding

Do you even like Magic?

You're saying you're envious of Vintage, the format of taking turns watching each other masturbate...but Legacy is boring? Legacy, with tens of viable decks rather than 3? Not to mention the frequent fluctuations in meta (rise of Merfolk etc)? Yeah, total zzzzs...

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By saying this, you, my friend have just proven to me that you have never ever seen a half decent game of vintage.

If they ban goyf I may stop playing Legacy. It would be ridiculous for them to ban a vanilla creature. SDT is the only card I could see them banning and it would just be for time issues. But even then, I would not like to see it banned.
I do think that they should try removing some cards from the banned list to see what the impact is and make assessments from there. If it turns out to be a bad idea they can change their minds back and put the card back on the list. I am just all for having more decks in Legacy so as long as they don't disrupt the format terribly, I want a bigger card pool to choose from. That being said, I wish they would try harder to make cards that are good for Legacy when printing new cards.

I don't want them to ban goyf, but I do wish goyf had never been printed. I mean, I paid like $30 each for my goyfs, and I'd certainly be annoyed if they got the banhammer. But still, I feel like I would enjoy the format infinitely more if that creature did not exist and slide so easily into so many decks. I miss Watchwolf being good. Hell, I miss Silver Knight being playable.

So yeah. In the hypothetical world where they ban goyf, I'd be slightly annoyed for about 10 seconds and then be pretty happy that you actually have to pay more than 2 mana to have a 5/6 again.

As a player who has just recently been coming back to Magic after six years away, I can safely say that this format is different and it does change. The problem of boredom for some veteran players may be because of the incremental basis in which the change has occurred. So many of the cards that define this format were completely new to me: Goyf, Counterbalance, SDT, Vial, Ad Nauseum, etc. Not to mention how many deck mainstays were new (on average 40-60% for me).

Also, as a newcomer, it seems a very wide open format with a lot of different deck types, which is always what Wizards' goal has been for every format (sometimes they fail in reaching that goal). I couldn't see banning anything, but I would love to see Oath of Druids unbanned. I'm not entirely convinced that it couldn't be just another DTB and played around. I have a difficult time believing it would dominate such a massively diverse format with nearly every card in its pool.

I'm still wondering why they bother keeping Land Tax on there. It's not horridly broken by any means "anymore". I say anymore since it is one powerful card and always was. I played back in the Black Summer and no one who did can deny how strong it was back then. I do think it's lost a lot of it's power though compared to back then.

If Tax comes off it will demand that Top goes on though. Top + Tax would just be annoying as hell to play against and who wouldn't put both in the same deck. It's a nice combo to see 3 new cards every turn. Despite the fact it would finally give White some serious power, it would end up only being the next Blue tool.

So in the end, of course, things stay the way they are or at least that's what I would do. It's fairly even with the decks out there right now.

I'm pretty sure they're only keeping land tax on the list to piss off Jack Elgin.

Ban Sensei's Divining Top

Unban:

* Dream Halls
* Earthcraft
* Grim Monolith
* Illusionary Mask
* Mind Twist
* Time Spiral
* Worldgorger Dragon

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Originally Posted by MMogg

I couldn't see banning anything, but I would love to see Oath of Druids unbanned. I'm not entirely convinced that it couldn't be just another DTB and played around. I have a difficult time believing it would dominate such a massively diverse format with nearly every card in its pool.

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I hate to keep picking on you, but no. We really don't want Oath unbanned. Like, there aren't very many cards on the list I want unbanned less than I want Oath unbanned.

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It would be ridiculous for them to ban a vanilla creature.

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:rolleyes:

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It would be ridiculous for them to ban a vanilla creature.

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There is always a first time :wink:

Good lord, if oath gets unbanned, I'm going to have a new favorite deck until it gets banned three months later.