Counter-Rebel Still

This is kinda necroing but this list made top8 out of 100 people in Catalina:

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Top 8 - Iván de Castro - Rebels - "Rebelde Way"

3 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Amrou Scout
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Children of Korlis
1 Defiant Falcon
1 Defiant Vanguard
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Mirror Entity
2 Ramosian Lieutenant
4 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Shapesharer
1 Bound in Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Training Grounds

Sideboard:

1 Big Game Hunter
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Absolute Law
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

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Gocho, did your list look like this?

Discuss

I wonder what matchup's he brought the Knight in from the SB .

Im thinking zoo? Blocking it brings the Cats down to kill range and their burn is pretty ineffective against it. Back when I played rebel casually I MD Nimbus, he's fun.

I think it may be a bit dangerous to only run a single Mirror Entity . Path and Plowshares are everywhere .

Bound in Silence was great against Reanimator but is I wonder how good it is against Vengevine Survival . I'd almost rather run Big Game Hunter in the MD over the single Bound .

I really really like the manabase tho , and the SB Serenity is pretty interesting .

I would have definitely used Big Game Hunter on main as well and possibly Dunerider Outlaw.

I wonder how 4 Sergeants and CounterTop worked for him. Whenever I am testing it, there was a conflict between the two strategies.

Big Game Hunter seems better to me too. But Bound looks better against Vengevines which are everywhere these days.

I've been testing Ancient Tomb now. You just need more speed against Merolk and Goblins and if you don't draw Training Grounds or it gets countered you are really slow compared to them.
But Ancient Tomb seems bad against Wastelands and the damage adds up over time.

Another thing i'm concerned about is his landcount. He plays 18 Lands. I play 20 Lands and have trouble with mulligans -.-
Maybe the Top helps a bit, but then again if you Top the first turns you loose to early attacks.

@preddi: maybe remove countertop, then 3 lands instead of SDT for a more solid manabase, and spell pierce/spell snare instead of Counterbalance main? just an idea..the deck already takes time to develop with recruiters and training grounds, if u even draw grounds. Do you really think countertop is necessary? it works good with the response/eot recruiting because of SDT activations but I dont know if another counter and a more solid manabase wouldn't be better.. especially in wasteland filled fields (sinkhole decks are dying out)

I don't think it is necessary but it is a good card no doubt and it is blue which is actually important. Another advantage is that it can protect your searchers without mana.
What do you think of shapesharer? In my opinion there are few niches it can fill. The slots in this deck are short and i think there are better choices.
To the spell pierce / snare suggestion: i often want to counter spells but i have no mana becaurse i played an recruiter. Pierce is good against control based decks, but these matchups are actually good and i don't know if more counters are needed.
My main concern so far are decks like merfolk / goblins and zoo.
Maybe Wrath of God is an option or Worship.
At the moment i'm testing Reverent Mantra. It works great but then again it is not a blue card and i find myself often exile TG for FoW which is awful.

The list is running 2 Ramosian Lieutenants instead of 2 Defiant Falcons . I wonder if he was expecting a lot of Engineered Plague .

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I wonder how 4 Sergeants and CounterTop worked for him. Whenever I am testing it, there was a conflict between the two strategies.

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I had a problem where I would search eot and they would cast post search knowing I had fresh cards on top . Sometimes it worked in their favor , sometimes in mine . Personally I felt that the reshuffling was a boon since you can do it so many times before letting CB trigger .

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Originally Posted by preddi

Big Game Hunter seems better to me too. But Bound looks better against Vengevines which are everywhere these days.

I've been testing Ancient Tomb now. You just need more speed against Merolk and Goblins and if you don't draw Training Grounds or it gets countered you are really slow compared to them.
But Ancient Tomb seems bad against Wastelands and the damage adds up over time.

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I love Ancient Tomb in this deck , I run 2 and am trying to fit in the 3rd .

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Originally Posted by preddi

What do you think of shapesharer? In my opinion there are few niches it can fill. The slots in this deck are short and i think there are better choices.

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I liked Shapresharer vs Reanimator and Show and Tell decks . If your Meta is heavy on cheating anything into play I'd run Shapesharer .

shapeshearer can also randomly copy goyfs,tombstalkers,dreadnoughts etc so its a good choice I would say :)

You can handle almost everything with Bound in Silence or Big Game Hunter, so why shapesharer? I think it's good and it's also blue, maybe i will test it next time. Another problem i see in the list above is the low recruiter count. I imagine a deck like zoo will kill off all your searchers with mass bolts and stuff before you can use them. Counterbalance with 1 CC card on top is the only solution this deck offers to this.
But Zoo is one of the really bad matchups even with CB.

What do you guys think of Standstill? I think it fits well but there is nothing i would cut.

I'm wondering, has anyone tested some changes? I did test Shapesharer and Countertop a bit. I think they are okay but not too impressive.
The metagame i face at my weekly tournament is very tribal. goyf and CB heavy. I'm looking for some solutions against fast Tibal openings becaurse i often loose to merfolk even with an active Training Grounds.
I'm thinking of something like Wrath of God/Cataclysm or even Propaganda which raises the blue count a little.

Maybe one of you guys have some advice?

I wish you all a nice christmas.

- preddi

@ preddi: I guess Propaganda would fit the best as it doesn't kill your already played recruiters, ups the blue count & is tutorable via Enlightened Tutor which isn't only good for Sideboard :)

I played the Rebel Deck on the last 2 tournaments and overall it had never disappointed me because it's very solid and got many solutions. I left out CB+Top because it slows down the actual gameplan & is very mana intensive...the meta here has got much aggro, too so you need to be fast.

Merry Christmas!

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Originally Posted by Alexeezay

@ preddi: I guess Propaganda would fit the best as it doesn't kill your already played recruiters, ups the blue count & is tutorable via Enlightened Tutor which isn't only good for Sideboard :)

I played the Rebel Deck on the last 2 tournaments and overall it had never disappointed me because it's very solid and got many solutions. I left out CB+Top because it slows down the actual gameplan & is very mana intensive...the meta here has got much aggro, too so you need to be fast.

Merry Christmas!

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Thanks for the reply!

Do you mind posting your list? How do you deal with fast aggro i.e. Merfolk?

Greetings

MB:
5x Plains
4x Island
3x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Gaea's Cradle

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Force Of Will
4x Training Grounds
3x Swords To Plowshares
1x Bound In Silence

4x Ramosian Sergeant
3x Defiant Falcon
1x Ramosian Lieutnant
1x Amrou Scout
1x Defiant Vanguard
2x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2x Mirror Entity
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Aven Riftwatcher
1x Children Of Korlis

SB:
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Absolute Law
1x Propaganda
1x Serenity
1x Aura Of Silence
1x Wheel Of Sun And Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic Of Progenitus
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Dunerider Outlaw

So this is the list I played last time but I put 1 propaganda now into SB.
I actually wanted to fit in Dunerider Outlaw, Shield Dancer and Whip Corder in the MB but there's simply no room :/ maybe cut the Defiant Vanguard for Whipcorder?

Against fast aggro like Merfolk you have to resolve a recruiter as soon as possible. Then get Lin Sivvi+Children Of Korlis going on if possible..by that you can win the game in the long run as you search for mirror entity and stuff soon.
Without Training Grounds it's really hard.. but also possible.

Against Merfolk you board Propaganda and Needle + ETutor.
against Zoo/Burn/Sligh you board in Blue Elemental Blasts and Relic Of Progenitus,Absolute Law+E Tutor,
and so on.

I really want to have success with Rebels in the future because it's a funny deck, so help is always appreciated :)

btw didn't read your post fully, preddi :D well if you even got problems with a training grounds it's probably because you haven't got a recruiter resolved yet. Against merfolk I would only counter counters on your recruiters because you simply would win with recuiters...their standstill is also pretty much useless...Pithing Needle from the board slows them down by naming Vial
I just came home early from a party right now and drank alot :D so my post is not that useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alexeezay

btw didn't read your post fully, preddi :D well if you even got problems with a training grounds it's probably because you haven't got a recruiter resolved yet. Against merfolk I would only counter counters on your recruiters because you simply would win with recuiters...their standstill is also pretty much useless...Pithing Needle from the board slows them down by naming Vial
I just came home early from a party right now and drank alot :D so my post is not that useful.

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Hey,
your list looks much like mine. Aside that i play spell pierce instead of spell snare. Why do you consider snare the better play?
I tried out Whipcorder but i wasn't too impressed by it. I now think that Knight of the holy nimbus is a good card in general.
The problem i face with merfolk is that they seem to have the perfect draw each time. And this is really hard to deal with. Dunno maybe i'm just unlucky.


Greets

Yea you're right, Spell Pierce is more versatile so I'll switch it to MB, since we don't fear cmc2 creatures like Goyf, do we? :)

The problem with Whipcorder is that it doesn't have an immediate effect on the board when you recruit him other than being a small blocker.
So I'll try out Knight of the..

I already thought of adding Disenchant to the SB but then Blue Elemental Blasts are very important against Zoo and Goblins.

Now that Survival is banned, Merfolk will be (one of) the most played decks I think. not good for Rebels :D

I haven't read every post in this thread, but from the tiny bit I've sifted, I'd like to chime in.

I fool around with Rebel's from time to time when I get bored, even though they kinda suck in Legacy, because they are still my favorite creature type of all time.

I've tried all sorts of variations before, including the Life-Combo approach, the Vial Aggro approach, Counter-Rebels, WW/b Rebels w/ discard, WW/g Rebels with Gaddock Teeg, you name it.

Anyway, I played against someone on MWS using Rebels, and the new savage tech of Training Grounds really caught my eye.

So I threw together some lists, and found a startling discovery: between Training Grounds, Gaea's Cradle, and Mirror Entity, most of the "slow" issues are gone. The deck doesn't really feel like Rebels anymore, since this transforms it into a combo deck, but the combo itself is rather quick in comparison to previous Rebel builds I've played.

I think the CounterTop and Standstill shells are a bit unecessary. Both CounterTop and Standstill generate card advantage that this deck doesn't need; Rebels already generate absurd amounts of card advantage. Both of those engines are also incredibly slow; speeding the deck up has been, and will continue to be, what this deck needs to improve on to be viable.

Honestly, once the deck successfully gets a recruiter online, this deck is very difficult for the opponent to answer. What that means to me is a focus on early game control, via redundancy and cheap countermagic. Redundancy in the number of recruiters, and cheap countermagic in the form of FoW/Daze/Pierce.

Once a recruiter goes online, it's only a matter of time before the deck hits a critical mass and "combo's off." Both Training Grounds and Gaea's Cradle accelerate this. One recruiter turns into two, which turns into 4 more Rebel's, grabbing Mirror Entity in the process to swing for lethal on the following turn. Whipcorder helps the deck play defensively (when necessary, against aggro) until it can do its thing.

Here's the list I'm playtesting right now, and the maindeck feels pretty solid:

Rebels!

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tundra
3 [UNH] Island
3 [UNH] Plains
4 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [MM] Ramosian Sergeant
4 [NE] Defiant Falcon
4 [MM] Ramosian Lieutenant
1 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
4 [ON] Whipcorder
1 [LRW] Mirror Entity

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ROE] Training Grounds

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [SOM] Turn Aside
SB: 4 [US] Disenchant
SB: 2 [FUT] Bound in Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Children of Korlis


The sideboard is just a random throw together, and I could actually use some advice on what it should include.

I do want to say that decks that significantly attack the manabase, like Pox and Deadguy Ale/Rock, are difficult matchups. Wasteland itself isn't gg, but dedicated LD is a serious problem. Turn Aside seems like a decent answer for that, as well as being a great sideboard card against decks with loads of target based removal, but I'm wondering if maybe Sacred Ground or Teferi's Response is warranted.

Hey,

it's cool to see some more response here. Your list looks pretty interesting Hanni.

I noticed your high landcount. Do you feel it is necessary?
I tested Whipcorder and it felt too slow due to it's summoning sickness. How are your experiences with this card?
I really like the high recruit count. But cutting swords and the "toolbox" rebels is indeed changing the whole deck into a fast combo kill which could be better than the old "defend and kill" mechanic but needs some testing.

I think that the first turns (about three) are the deciding ones. If you manage to get a recruit online without taking too much damage, you are probably fine. This is why i think FoW and Daze are too important for this deck even with this low blue count.

How are the Gaea's Cradle doing? I think they are great if you get more than one creature into play. I'm currently running Ancient Tomb for a more possible second two search.

See you all next year!

preddi