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Aggro Loam doesn't really have that many lands that one would want to tutor for. Realms Uncharted would also be good basically only when you have Life from the Loam already in grave or in hand. And this is coming from the mouth of a guy that's playing with Knights in MD.
Lol, this be what you are referring too http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=32008.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Would be interesting to put Realms Uncharted in this, but I think the numbers in this deck are really tight already and it would be hard to fit it in this deck since KoTR and Crop Rotation already tutor for the lands you want.
God I wish Tabernacle wasn't so expensive!:cry:
For the application of purely finding land it is better or excellent in combination with LftL. For the same cost but in the primary color you are in you get to tutor for an extra card AND keep and extra card, this already makes it better than Intuition for getting the lands you want, but the utility of getting spells is not there. Gifts costs one more and each card has to have a different name on it. You still get to search for 4 cards and keep 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by leander?
In some applications of just finding specific land, its good, while intuition and gifts are better at getting the LftL engine started and keeping it going.
Interesting, but:Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
-the average life per card is better with Confidant in this deck.
-Confidant is better in multiples.
-Confidant goes the beatdown.
In favour of Library we have:
-On color.
-Hard to remove.
Both cards are similar and good but I'd stay with confidants since the on color fact is not a problem thanks to fetch and moxes, so confidant gives more advantadges than disadvantages.
As a one-of creature witness it`s clearly better than Stinkweed Imp/Terravore.
I'm running with 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Countryside Crusher and 3 Knight of the Reliquary and couldn't be happier. Colorscrew isn't really a problem with Aggro Loam as the deck is packing Mox Diamonds and Life from the Loams. The only basic land I have is a Forest that is fetchable with every fetchland in the deck (4 Wooded Foothills, 2 Verdant Catacombs and 1 Windswept Heath) and that is really the only basic land needed for Life from the Loams and Krosan Grips post board.
I wouldn't trade Dark Confidant for anything.
EDIT: If I've noticed one thing that's "hard" with Aggro Loam, it's making the correct mulligan decisions. Zack Wilson said it quite well at SGC Orlando finals: "I hate that hand that's fundamentally decent enough to make you think 'Well, it might just get there…" Well, most of the time the correct decision is to take a mulligan and this is exactly where Dark Confidant shines in addition to Life from the Loams by making recovering easier or even possible.
I’m currently planning to build the 4c variant of this deck mainly because I like Knight of the reliquary a lot. I just lack maelstrom pulse and chalice.
Need some help though, is maze of ith really needed? And in addition is burning wish really needed in Aggro loam builds?
Our meta is like 40% rock decks, 25% merfolk, Bant, thresh, 15% Zoo and goblins, 10% ANT and 10% reanimator.
I would really appreciate the help. Thanks!:smile:
You're forgetting the most important benefit of Sylvan Library. You may dredge the cards you would draw. And it lets you dig deeper for answers too.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
I haven't played with Maze of Ith, but I don't really feel that Maze is necessary. Most of the time Aggro Loam isn't on the defensive anyway and sadly Maze doesn't do anything against the most "problematic" guy, Progenitus. I have also never played with Burning Wish so I can't comment on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_mage
If you're going for 4c build, I'd suggest trying out what I have sleeved right now:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Sejiri Steppe
The lone Forest can be found with every fetchland. Most of the time you want to fetch Taiga -> Badlands -> Plateau to have three red mana for Seismic Assault, but of course it depends also on what you have in hand. Against decks with manadenial you naturally want that Forest first. Luckily Mox Diamond makes life really easy if you happen to draw one.. or two.
I wouldn't go under three Seismic Assaults since that cards has just always been too awesome for me. I have a 3/3 split on Crusher and Knight since I can't really decide which one I like the most. But hey, what's better than to flip couple of lands to Crusher and then reveal a Knight, that enters the battlefield huge as hell?
About the lands, Volrath's Stronghold has been good enough to keep a spot in the deck. Barbarian Ring enables some funny combat tricks with Knight and of course gives the deck some additional reach. Sejiri Steppe is my latest tech which I haven't really tried out yet. It's for the same use as in the Mythic deck in standard. Sometimes you just have to get your BIG beater through your opponents defence (untapped Progenitus for example) and Steppe offers also additional protection against removal with Knight on the table. If it's not good enough, I'll switch it back to the third Tranquill Thicket.
Anyway, I'm not planning to "sell my views to everyone" or to "hijack this thread" or anything. I just thought I might provide blue_mage (and of course others) a good starting point (in my opinion) for a 4c Aggro Loam with some explanations on the card choices.
-kortero
Why isn't anybody trying to make this deck completely degenerate?
You really can if you just include bloodghast... Here's a list to look over:
lands//24
3 wasteland
1 volrath's stronghold
4 wooded foothills
3 baron moor
3 forgotten cave
2 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
2 taiga
2 badlands
1 forest
spells//22
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 small pox
4 cabal therapy
4 mox diamond
4 burning wish
creatures//14
4 bloodghast
4 tarmogoyf
4 countryside crusher
2 eternal witness
You can make the following plays:
after having dredged through bloodghast
1. play a fetch that you get with loam -> get back bloodghast -> sac bloodghast to therapy, fetch with the fetchland, bring back the bloodghast
2. small pox sacrificing the bloodghast, or even better discarding it and then being able to get it for 'free' later
3. devastating dreams wiping the entire board, either destroying your bloodghasts on board or discarding them for the devastating dreams... play a land and you have threats (maybe hasty threats depending on the gamestate) when they have a clear board.
4. simply dredging loam and then playing it for the land to instantly bring back all your ghasts.
The inclusing of small pox, devastating dreams, and wasteland/loam also give this list a powerful manadenial strategy, not to mention that crusher gets HUGE with most of these.
Smallpox can be a bitch if you have a goyf and no ghast or other critter, but playing smart and not poxing at inappropriate points in the game help with that.
The burning wishes can be cut down in favor of other cards, but i like the utility even if it is a little slow.
The deck is actually a lot of fun, because it can get silly being able to dredge therapies and ghasts and just playing them for 'free' just b/c you can get your lands back.
Very suceptible to yard hate, but keeping fetches and burning wishes on standby can save your ghasts and loams should the opp want to nuke your yard with relics/crypts.
Anyways, thoughts, comments?
I've been trying to make it degenerate. Bloodghast is nice, but a 2/1 that can't block but doesn't die isn't exactly the definition of "degenerate" in this format. Discard is also much worse as a disruption option than Chalice in most cases.
Natural Order, on the other hand...
The card is retarded in the fact that you can make devastating dreams sooooooo unfair... and him + therapy + loam is just stupid b/c you can keep your dredge mechanic going, and for no cost you get both critters and disruption... You should try out the list, the interactions are actually quite nice.
Cabal Therapy doesn't play nice with Chalice... If you are not running chalice as I see you are not, then I would venture to GUESS that you are not running enough disruption to go toe-to-toe with combo and reanimator.
Chalice or not, combo has never been a positive MU for any non-blue loam deck to my knowledge.
I think you should simply prioritize your MD slots to make sure that you don't lose against other common decks (merfolk, goblins, threshold, zoo)...
If you're so worried about combo and reanimator, then you shouldn't even be playing this deck anyways.
If you guys hate the idea of bloodghast, that's fine.
I will just stick to playing it... Being able to rape with bloodghasts after just sweeping the ENTIRE board with dreams is just too much for me to pass up.
@Kortero: Thanks a lot. Below is the list I’m currently testing. Just saw the list got 3rd out of 60 players. But I just tweak it a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by kortero
I agree with the lone forest. I was also testing a list similar to the one you have posted above. But I kind of like to have burning wish main deck so as to have access to my SB game 1.
I like maze of ith because it can stop big creatures or even iona.
I have a question though what is the right number of lands for aggro loam builds? I have seen list with 25, 26 and even 27 lands?
Is engineered explosives really needed maindeck?
And what do you side board in against combo deck? Blue decks and aggro decks?
And what do you take out.
Again thanks :)
I’m planning to play this deck in a GP. So need all the help that I can get.
Mainboard:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Seismic Assault
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Tranquil thicket
1 Forest
# 60
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the void
2 Firespout
1 Worm Harvest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life from the Loam
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chainer’s edict
2 Choke
# 15
You can manage with 26 lands, but I prefer to play with 27. At some point of my magic "career" I just realized that it's better to have too many rather than too few lands. I would never go down to 25 lands.
To be honest, I don't know anything about builds with burning wish, but I like to have 2 maelstrom pulses and 2 engineered explosives MD. They are pretty much always useful, and against storm combo, they are the cards I take out.
Sideboarding is also kind of different with wishless builds such as mine. Anyway, against storm combo, -2 pulse -1 EE +2 gaddock teeg +1 ethersworn canonist. Against merfolk & goblin, -4 chalice +4 firespout. Against zoo, -4 confidant +4 firespout. Against "Countertop decks", -1 loam -1 knight -1 crusher -1 seismic (-1 pulse -1 EE) +some combination of krosan grip, gaddock teeg and perish. Leylines come in against lands, dredge and reanimator. Against enchantress I have only 2 krosan grips.
I can't really give you any advice how to sideboard with a build with burning wishes. You're list looks weaker against storm combo since you don't have any of the hatebears. Devastating Dreams is also pretty risky against "blue" opponents, but the list you posted might be better against aggro decks (-merfolk) than mine. However, my record against aggro decks is still pretty good with 4 firespouts from sideboard and 3 MD seismic assaults.
Burning wishes and devastating dreams are pretty much a simple matter of preference. I just can't think of good enough reason to include them in my aggro loam. :)
Ps. I still play with the exact list I posted earlier. It works like a charm.
So I've recently put this deck together and settled on the following list. I'm unsure of the ability for 2 Bojuka Bog to sufficiently hate the graveyard. Knight of the Reliquary can at best fetch it out on turn 3, while most graveyard based decks are very fast such as Reanimator and Ichorid. I would like to fit Leyline of the Void in the sideboard but I'm not sure what to remove.
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Perish
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Firespout
1 Shattering Spree
3 Zuran Orb
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nomad Stadium
So I've recently started putting Aggro Loam together, and I've been having a little trouble how to fit everything in.
This is the build I'm currently at:
Aggro Loam
MD
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Seismic Assault
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold*
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
If I were to try a Wish Build, I'd probably go -2 Explosives, -1 Witness, -1 Loam, + 4 Wish. I'd rather not cut Devastating Dreams from the main as it has been so good against anything aggro. Jayzonius (or anyone), do you ever feel that Burning Wish into Dreams would be too slow against faster aggro decks? Wouldn't you prefer to have them in the main? Also, is Explosives necessary?
If your meta is infested with non-blue aggro decks, Wish into a sweeper can be quite slow, especially if the sweepers you're using are Dreams. You're better off running Firespout in the main and Wishing for Dreams as a way to break through. Firespout costs more mana total, but is better against a deck like Zoo because you have a better shot at killing their team without putting yourself in awkward situations where you have to Mind Twist yourself to get anywhere.
In case you haven't noticed, I really don't like Dreams. It's dead weight in the blue matchups, which is most of an expected SCG-type field right now.
Wish is the place where tempo goes to die. In a format as tempo-oriented as Legacy, I would stay away from it and instead focus on flexibility and redundancy in the main.
Well yeah Burning Wish is alot slower, but I still run it for several reasons. It can really make a big impact on a game.
I agree with Aggro Zombies on DD, It's an insanely powerful card but it is very situational. It's a dead draw vs. blue. You NEVER want to risk having it countered. My single DD on my wishboard has worked perfectly.
With Knight of the Reliquary is Glacial Chasm a reasonable 1x to grab, or is that not necessary? It seems like it could really be very difficult for a lot of decks to deal with, and be an easy way to stabilize the game. Sorry if this was brought up already, I just had it on my mind. By the way, unlike Maze of Ith, it does stop Progenitus ;)