Interesting tactic. Is there anything in the rules prohibiting spectators from "stalking" a single player to catch and report his/her mistakes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey
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Interesting tactic. Is there anything in the rules prohibiting spectators from "stalking" a single player to catch and report his/her mistakes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey
I'm looking forward to the next Wesconomics.
Step 1: punch someone in the face
Step 2: run off with his deck and ebay it
Here's the bottom line:
a. The match was over.
b. One guy said something stupid.
The other guy spent the last two days, driving or flying from God knows where, spending God knows how much money, on who knows how little sleep, getting so far in the biggest tournament of his life, and seeing a faint glimmer of hope after the door was shut on his opportunity to win an absurd amount of money on a card game (granted, he had already made money, but he was also looking to be "immortalized").
He acted on impulse and made a decision. Whether or not he meant it is irrelevant; what is done is done and I'm sure people will understand that at that level in a tournament of that magnitude, you act professional and with a high level of class towards your opponents whether you win or you lose. When you make it that far, you've already outlasted over one-thousand minds to get where you are; that's pretty impressive.
I've seen Magic players and spectators alike and observed how they watch and react to a big game in progress, and I've got to tell you:
Magic players are some of the most cold-hearted sons-a-bitches you will ever come across when money is on the line. What happened is a lesson that should be learned by all players from all different formats of play, and that lessons is: Be polite, professional, and know when to keep your mouth shut.
Or open, depending on the circumstances.
Just to add more fuel to the fire here, some top names have taken an issue with this DQ.
Another link: http://thestarkingtonpost.com/articl...GP_Columbus_DQ
What Ziv has done here is put them in a situation where to stay on policy they will have to DQ him. If they do, he will claim it was a joke, and they will have to stay with the DQ which is what happened at the GP. If they do this, they will also have to DQ Wescoe, as they are saying they believe a bet took place. At least, that is the idea behind this as I see it.
Also, apparently there is no love lost between Ziv and Wescoe…
This guy needs a million high fives.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf
I really don't think it means that much. Zvi (not Ziv) had earlier tweeted:Quote:
Rules are rules but DQing a player for betting on himself is beyond lame. Unless it means he loses the bet. Then it's hilarious!
Ha, it's funny. I also made a $10 bet against Wescoe that I would top8 at the U.S. Nationals. For I am Spartacus.
What Zvi said opens a lot of doors. For example, Wescoe called the judge over after the ended right? Well, the match is still over. Anyone can now say they made a bet with anyone who played in that tournament and the DCI needs to at least investigate each acusation, lest they not be consistent and lose face.
Hell anyone can now say they made a bet with anyone in any tournament ever. Okay, that's a little extreme. But say the guy who lost the final match (2nd place holder) is mad he lost. Can he say he overheard the winner (1st place holder) saying he made a bet with someone? Where does the absurdity stop?
If it was just Wescoe's word that Drew Lavin said he made a bet, then you might have a point. But the Judges were able to verify that Drew had made the statement about making a bet. If it's merely one persons word and the judges can't corroborate it in any way, there won't be action on it.
To that end, you can always just claim that you opponent cheated at any point. This is the flawed part of magic. The betting thing has nothing to do with it.
Yup, props to Zvi for doing the right thing.
If FB chatter is any indication a decent chunk of the pro community has firmly come down on the side of 'Wescoe is a douchebag, have fun with your shortsighted decision'.
That is complete bullshit. Some dumb motherfucker loses a round then looks to exploit some tiny technicality and turn it into a win. Thats not competetition, thats just being a dick-less piece of shit. But then again thats how I feel about all of the people who try to expolit the rules like this. I don't give a shit how technically accurate it is, thats not winning, thats just fucking pathetic, pure and simple.
Also, its ridiculous that they would DQ him for something they couldn't even prove! How can they prove or disprove that he wasn't betting on himself (I know I would if I went to a big event and someone gave me fucking 50/1 odds). But that is all irrelevant since it does not in any way effect the outcome of the tournament. The dude is more motivated to win ... awesome .... and ...
Wescoe needs to stay home and play WoW or something, clearly he can't act like a decent human being in environments where you have face-to-face social interactions.
And to any idiot who thinks he is right, would u really call a judge if your opponent made some small comment like that? Its so fucked up, any moron who wants to win dirty like that shouldn't play.
So hearsay counts as no less than plenty of evidence now? I mean, where are the wager slips or any other physical evidence that an actual bet took place instead of just mentioning one did? What if Levin had said that he bet two chicks that if he made top8 they'd have to sleep with him? Or he bet his friend dinner after the event if he made top8? What if you saw your now currently opponent playing earlier and said you "bet" you know what deck hes playing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Let's assume two friends are driving to the event that morning. There are no other people in the car, and no devices that could record their conversation. At one point during the trip, Friend A turns to Friend B and says, "Bet you $10 I make top 8."Quote:
Originally Posted by WIREWOOD PRIDE
"Bullshit!" says Friend B, "You're terrible at this game. I'll take you up on it."
Sixteen rounds later, Friend A is locked into the top 8. He turns to Friend C in the audience and says, "Man, I'm so glad I bet Friend B $10 that I'd make top 8." His opponent, one Mr. Wescoe, hears this and reports it to a judge.
How are you supposed to prove in this situation that the bet actually took place? The only two parties involved will deny it (especially if they know what the consequences are), and there's no physical evidence to actually show betting took place even though it did in this example. The judge can assume that both Friend A and B are telling the truth, rule that there was no bet, and be wrong, or assume a bet did take place and DQ Friend A. Either way, Friends A and B will continue to protest their innocence, a shitstorm will develop on the intarwebs, and Wescoe will continue to be an asshole.
Basically, Drew put himself in a situation where he could potentially end up in toruble if his opponent was a dick. His opponent was a dick, and he ended up in trouble. Had Drew kept quiet, he would have made top 8 and gotten prize, and Wescoe would have been done. Drew isn't completely blameless here because he gave his opponent an opening, and Wescoe is at fault for being unscrupulous enough to blow it out of proportion and exploit it.
The only thing the judge had to make a decision with was what Drew said, and what the audience heard him say. Drew did not dispute that he said he'd made a bet, but instead argued that he was joking - the same sort of argument a guilty person would make, so you still have no way to tell. However, a ruling has to be made, and the judge chose a strict interpretation of DCI policy. It's terrible to get booted for that, but now Drew knows to not say stupid shit at the top tables, and Wescoe has been exposed as a cunt.
There's no overwhelming imperative for judges to enforce a difficult to enforce rule. That's why IDs are legal in the first place. If the judges didn't know, or at least have pretty reasonable certainty, they shouldn't have acted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
A small amount of common sense from the judges should have resulted in no DQ.
I bet Levin did say to his friend, "50-1 that I'll make Top 8?"
And his college buddy smiled and said, "Sure"
Since Top8ing at an 1,800-person tournament is close to impossible, it's the equivalent of someone saying, "Bet you $500 I can make this half-court basketball shot."
When said player actually makes the shot, he may say, "Pay up" but only in a joking, buddies kind of way.
So when Levin did make it, he probably thought it was fairly incredible and funny that he and his friend made the "bet." Thus, he blurted it out.
Also, if you and your friend are poor college students, and you just won $1,000 playing Magic, would you make your poor friend pay up on a joke bet? Of course not! If anything you're sharing the wealth a bit, maybe buying your friend a box or two, buying him drinks, dinner, etc.
The whole scenario does not make any sense at all, and the judges should have realized that and not played into the hands of a manipulator.
The judges at Magic tourneys act as the police and the judge. First they have to decide if it's reasonable that someone receive a ticket, in this case a DQ. If someone is going 2 mph over the speed limit, yes, technically, you could get charged with speeding. But nearly no police officers will cite you for speeding, due to the fact that it's unreasonable to expect someone to watch his speed that closely. A small hill or a gust of wind could cause you to speed.
The judges should have realized it was highly unlikely that it was a serious bet, based upon simple common sense. It shouldn't have even gotten to the point where they were trying to weigh evidence, apply the rules, etc.
A complete failure by the judges in this case. The DCI should give this guy a retroactive Top 8, DQ reversed, and at least $500 for his troubles.
There's a reason why I don't play in large tournaments. Never mind that i suck, but I have a big mouth and like to make jokes. I'd likely get a lifetime ban if someone pulled this sort of unsportsmanlike conduct on me.
Hope public apologies mean something to people these days.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/19811.html
Not at all, its to little to late. While kind, he only wrote this to prevent the backlash his actions instill and will turn readers off from his articles (this idiot is hopefully trying to keep what little readers/followers he has left). The fact that he even called a judge over for a simple comment like that is insulting and shows what kind of person he is. Most rational human beings would have laughed and shaken his hand saying good bet, even if it wasn't a real bet to begin with because it has no effect on the outcome of the tournament.
Its shit like this that shows who is a good person and who is a piece of shit looking to exceed at any cost. Poker is different than Magic because no real money is ever at stake but its still competition and gambling on a draft (which is betting on yourself to win) is no different than betting on yourself to win a tournament. I'm still in awe that this idiot even called a judge, who cares!!!