Saito stalling at GP

I just wish people would remember the difference between slow play and stalling.

Slow play is unintentional. 90% of magic players are guilty of slow play. What Saito is being accused of is stalling, deliberate cheating.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

It's not so much he didn't know what Jace, the Mind Sculptor does; he read the card an inexplicable amount of times over the course of two or three turns and milked the clock for every second that he could.

Either way, with the heat that has been brought down upon him (winning the event or not), he will be the subject of close scrutiny and close watch from judges who are aware of his play-style. If for nothing else: To maintain the integrity of the game.

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I was obviously implying that he DOES know what Jace TMS does, he runs a card shop and plays Standard all the time. It's ridiculous to suggest that he doesn't know what it does. I can't imagine how anyone could think that was not stalling.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I was obviously implying that he DOES know what Jace TMS does, he runs a card shop and plays Standard all the time. It's ridiculous to suggest that he doesn't know what it does. I can't imagine how anyone could think that was not stalling.

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I agree with the stalling thing. I mean, Jace2 is the figure head in STD and the pros play STD heavily, so it is not like he did not know what Jace2 does, becasue if he hadn't known then he hasn't played STD and If he hasn't played STD then I'm completely wrong and smoke 2 packs of dik a day. Either way, wether someone plays STD or not-though more reason if they do play- I have a hard time believing that a player ranked as high as Saitou is, wouldn't know what the best card printed in a while does. Another issue was Saitou took 2 minutes to act while a Tsabo's Decree smackdown was on stack naming Merf, where he had 2 Merfs in hand and no way to get the spell off the stack.

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Originally Posted by johanessen

It's not Saito's fault. It's judges fault. Congrats Saiton on wining the GP

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I wouldn't say it was Saitos fault, or the judges, i think it was the opponents fault for not calling a judge over. I think next tournament he plays in he'll have to step up the speed cause most people are aware of his play style now. Will be interesting to see how he does.

At PT Amsterdam, he had a personal judge watching him for pretty much the entire saturday...

It's a sad day. Apparently, Saito made it into the Hall of Fame.

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Originally Posted by Solaran_X

It's a sad day. Apparently, Saito made it into the Hall of Fame.

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I hate to break it to you, but- he's been in for a week and it isn't exactly as though the other members of the HoF have unblemished records.

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Originally Posted by dschalter

I hate to break it to you, but- he's been in for a week and it isn't exactly as though the other members of the HoF have unblemished records.

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Well it's nice to see that blatant cheaters can get into the Magic HoL. Granted, when Magic finally dies I doubt anyone will remember the Magic HoL, but that's not a reason to treat it like the way it's being treated and letting people in just because they're "pros", regardless of whether or not they cheat.

I would guess that 90-100% of the people in the hall of fame have done something during their professional career that people on these boards would call cheating.

I’m not excusing his behavior, but the standards were set for this HoF a long time ago. He disserves his spot.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf

I would guess that 90-100% of the people in the hall of fame have done something during their professional career that people on these boards would call cheating.

I’m not excusing his behavior, but the standards were set for this HoF a long time ago. He disserves his spot.

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90-100% of people that are successful in ANY arena, not just magic.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf

I would guess that 90-100% of the people in the hall of fame have done something during their professional career that people on these boards would call cheating.

I’m not excusing his behavior, but the standards were set for this HoF a long time ago. He disserves his spot.

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When it comes to the stalling incident, yes. That kind of behavior is extremely common, both among pros (even those who talk about integrity) and PTQ level players. When it comes to what he did previously... no, that kind of behavior isn't common at all. I still think he should be in the HoF, as he was only 17 when he did the dumbness that got him a 1.5 year suspension and also because he hasn't gotten in real trouble since then (well, and he is the best deckbuilder of the last five years and one of the top 5 deckbuilders of the last decade).

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I was obviously implying that he DOES know what Jace TMS does, he runs a card shop and plays Standard all the time. It's ridiculous to suggest that he doesn't know what it does. I can't imagine how anyone could think that was not stalling.

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I was referencing the fact that he did know what it does while being sarcastic about the whole thing. Be realistic.

It may be ridiculous to suggest that he doesn't know what it does, but he obviously needed to check the card several times for some reason. And whatever the reason is (or however absurd it may be), that doesn't excuse him for stalling the game to preserve the victory. That's exactly what he did, and he (technically) got away with it.

He (Saito) had no right doing what he did to undermine the integrity of the game. He knew exactly what he was doing and whether or not he got caught doesn't excuse him from abusing strict rules enforcement in such a high-profile event.

So basically, (almost) everyone is saying is that we (as a collective community) are fine and accepting of a certain degree of cheating among our "professional" players because they all do it, and as such shouldn't bother holding them to the standards of professional players of other games?

That seems a little ridiculous. Maybe I'm just old fashioned (or just old), but I think the pro players should be held to a level of professionalism above that of your average amateur player.

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Originally Posted by Solaran_X

So basically, (almost) everyone is saying is that we (as a collective community) are fine and accepting of a certain degree of cheating among our "professional" players because they all do it, and as such shouldn't bother holding them to the standards of professional players of other games?

That seems a little ridiculous. Maybe I'm just old fashioned (or just old), but I think the pro players should be held to a level of professionalism above that of your average amateur player.

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Well, the HoFs of professional sports (which are what the MTG HoF is modeled on), aren't exactly free of shitheads and cheaters. They are about stars and most stars will get in, unless they have cheated repeatedly and in a particularly egregious way (Rose, Mike Long, etc;).

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Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm not excusing his behavior, but the standards were set for this HoF a long time ago. He disserves his spot.

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I'm guessing you meant "deserves" and not "disserves", but I think it is much apt as "disserves".

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Originally Posted by Solaran_X

So basically, everyone is saying is that we (as a collective community) are fine and accepting of a certain degree of cheating among our "professional" players because they all do it, and as such shouldn't bother holding them to the standards of professional players of other games?

That seems a little ridiculous. Maybe I'm just old fashioned (or just old), but I think the pro players should be held to a level of professionalism above that of your average amateur player.

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Calling someone a "professional" Magic is analagous to calling someone a "professional" poker player; it's just absurd. Both are predicated largely on bankrolling your own investment and accepting a potential loss without necessarily earning anything.

You aren't guaranteed to earn anything.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Calling someone a "professional" Magic is analagous to calling someone a "professional" poker player; it's just absurd. Both are predicated largely on bankrolling your own investment and accepting a potential loss without necessarily earning anything.

You aren't guaranteed to earn anything.

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So you attack my calling of them "professional" players (don't we call them pro players? Pretty sure we do...), but you still don't respond to the main point of my post.

Judging by your previous post, you condone and accept cheating by the professional players because they all do it, and apparently you don't feel that they should be held to a higher level of professionalism than amateur players.

I'm with hollywood, i'd argue that magic isn't a profession. Therefore we are all on the same playing field. This isn't like the NBA where there is a magic draft, since no border of professionalism exists, how can you advocate a higher standard? Unemployed people could be called "professionals"

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Calling someone a "professional" Magic is analagous to calling someone a "professional" poker player; it's just absurd. Both are predicated largely on bankrolling your own investment and accepting a potential loss without necessarily earning anything.

You aren't guaranteed to earn anything.

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Yea, calling people that regularly play on the Pro Tour "Pros" is definitely absurd. Also consider that if you are a high enough Pro Level you are guaranteed money for appearing at GPs and PTs.

So if we're all on the same playing field, why are some players called "pro players" and the rest of us aren't?

If we're all on the same playing field, then why can't some kid who just bought a precon beat Saitou or Nassif in Standard?

Clearly we are not on the same playing field.