The price of dual lands really isn't very on-topic to the main discussion going on in this thread, imho.
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The price of dual lands really isn't very on-topic to the main discussion going on in this thread, imho.
I think the real reason people are annoyed is that WotC had years to fix this, instead they go and print ... Ponder, Jace, Preordain, Spell pierce, all the merfolks in Lorwyn , etc... (less recently, Gift, Desire)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
Mental misstep is the latest offender. You know what was the red equivalent in the cicle? ONE damage to any target. The white or green ones? They both sucks. WotC always talk about how they have to "resize" blue, but in truth it's the color that has gotten the most bombs over the years even now, and the other colors follow. The planeswalkers are the latest demonstration of this. Aside from Elspeth, all the Walker that see play or have seen play in eternal are blue (Jace, Big Jace, Tezzeret, Corrupt Tezzeret).
Shit is gettin' old.
Selective Memory? Alara and Lorwyn set complete new standards for creatures and Legacy while giving Vintage a weaker brainstorm/ponder aka preordain, a "improved" Force Spike and a 1-2of jace to replace fact or fiction. White and Green got pushed since Lorwyn and broke Legacy with gw survival.
Seriously ... Mental misstep doesn't break Legacy right now or pushes Blue over the edge, neither can I understand that people want brainstorm banned while the most played decks (meerfolk, zoo) runs none?! You simply want to discuss for discussions sake or trolling aren't ya?
If your Decks too relying on vial or nacatl your should do your homework first before hulk-up in IMPS. (->signature)
I agree with this. Blue's getting the best or second best of every cycle, and Red's getting the worst. Red isn't even a color in Legacy right now. Red decks don't exist. Some decks splash Red, and most of them that do are actually still Blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Ask yourself this:
1. What's the best Planeswalker in Legacy/any Format?
2. What's the best single-colored 3-CMC creature in Legacy?
3. What's the best tutor in Legacy?
4. What's the best card filtration spell in Legacy?
5. What's the best disruption package in Legacy?
6. What are the two best creatures in Legacy?
The answer to 1-5 are all Blue: Jace, Vendilion Clique, Intuition, Brainstorm, and a combination of Force/Daze/Mental Misstep/Pierce/Snare. The answer to 6 -should- be Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic, but if you want to stick Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf in there, the point still remains that splashing these creatures into a Blue deck isn't all that hard.
A shock from that cycle would at least have been nice. A bolt would be even better.
Yeah, selective memory. The only great aggro creature that was printed was Nacatl. Confidant is debatable as it's great more in grinding mid-range weenie decks (or control mirrors) than in real aggro (that's a reason it was never used in any sui-black variant and fell out of grace in zoo). The other two-three great creatures that have been printed in those years are KotR, Goyf, SFM and are all extremely defensive in nature (slow, can tutor for answers, big butts). Or are merfolks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Power creep forgot red along the way. Red's best creature is from TORMENT (goblin are great only with heavy sinergy, taken alone are mediocre creatures, so i'm not counting any of those). February 2002, 9 years ago. That was when Psychatog was the best creature ever printed and green best creature was... wild mongrel?
Mind you, i'm not complaining about the format. I think it's great. And i'm not even complaining particularly about blue, i'd like to be able to play more red that's not goblin, sure, but nothing's ever perfect.
But to deny that blue was and still is the most loved color by WotC is just a biased opinion. "Selective memory" my ass, sorry.
@ Tacosnape: Those questions seem a little arbitrary. The second one looks unnecessarily specfic, why 3cc? And how does the fourth one not get a blue card as an answer? Following that logic, you could ask for the best creature removal spell, the best artifact/enchantment removal spell, the best direct damage spell, or the best discard spell.
Anyway, I think all those free and 1-mana counterspells are what people actually see as the real offenders. Let them play against a deck with all the tutors, card draw and cute creatures they want, but no counterspells, and I'm sure they won't complain that much.
Yeah, seems like the traditional countermagic-related "blue is too good" whining is back the moment true control becomes a tier 1 archetype. Has to be the popularity of the format... This is eternal. The only place fast combo, countermagic and manadenial haven't been phased out by WotC because (half-)casual players hate playing against things that don't focus on turning creatures sideways or killing creatures. That's why Legacy is great - almost every reasonable strategy ever invented for the game is a viable choice.
Sure, blue is the best color in the format but that's because blue is the color of library manipulation which leads to you drawing your best cards more often. With dual-fetch manabases, playing blue has a comparatively low cost and you therefore need a good reason not to do so while using the manafixing to still get solid removal/wincons.
That being said, having all the colors be balanced power-levelwise is a pipe-dream anyway in a format this large (they don't even manage to do that in Standard, like ever) so one color will always be best. Blue happens to be that in Eternal (also due to the nature of Eternal-formats - powerful spells, etc - making countermagic the most versatile kind of answer across the board) but that doesn't mean its somehow unbeatable. Heck, you can probably even build a monocolor deck for everything but green (afaik) that's viable. Be aware blue is good and build your decks accordingly. If we ever end up with a) 2-3 blue decks being the only viable decks or b) everybody maindecking Choke, REB or other blue-hate, there might be a problem. Until that happens, adjust or bust.
At the moment the format is extremely diverse (if blue-heavy), fun and skill-testing. People also haven't figured out how to adapt to Misstep yet (remember when CB-Top was "too good" and Top "needed to be banned" because the format couldn't deal with it? Yeah, that's clearly what happened) and any cries about "blue is br0kenZ0rz" come far too early.
Some of the most proficient Legacy-players (the Hatfields - Jesse even managed to 9-0 day one) chose to run Zoo, of all things, for this GP. If they don't think blue is too good to pass up, maybe you should reconsider your own opinions? I'm 99% sure they have more experience and are better at this format than any two people complaining about blue right now put together.
As to banning Brainstorm, be careful what you wish for. Remember how they killed Vintage by doing that? Now, it won't necessarily have the same effect on Legacy but I think the hit in both entertainment value and player support would be much more significant than anything gains in colorbalance would provide.
@Taco:
1.) Duh. There are 21 different Planeswalkers. Jace is very good in Legacy - aka a Legacy-power level card - and in return broken in half in Standard. That's why he's by far the best Planeswalker, R&D screwed up (as they admitted). It was bound to happen at some point and might have happened in any color but it's just much harder for them to evaluate library-manipulation abilities than anything else, I suspect, as their impact on the game is comparatively subtle. So, sure, blue has the best Planeswalker. That's because they didn't screw up more than 5% of the time.
2.) Peacekeeper, Kira and Reejery probably give you a run for your money, so does Mirran Crusader. Clique just happens to be the best against control or in combo-ish decks like NO. The real answer over everything else is probably just GSZ, though.
Also, yeah, why are we discussing single-colored 3 cc creatures instead of, at least, general cc3 creatures? Or, even more reasonable, 1-, 2-, 3- and 4- drop creatures?
3.) I'd argue for Infernal Tutor all day long.
4.) Biased question. Blue is the color of library-manipulation. Sylvan Lirbrary and SDT give you quite solid options even outside of blue, though. If you ask this question, we also need best removal (for each cardtype) best burn spell (yes, that is as open-minded as asking for the best filter spell seeing as blue is, as just mentioned, the color of library manipulation) best discard-spell, etc.
5.) Another biased question. Obviously the answer is something in UB - the philosophies of Red and Green just don't swing that way, which means they don't get much of it. I agree that they could be doing more with Whites "rules-setting" part of the color-pie (though they've gotten better in the last years). As long as every color has its own identity, some of them will be worse at certain jobs than others, and in an Eternal format that means getting the shaft against the strategies that try to do something unfair if you don't happen to be a disruption-color. Sucks if you refuse to play one of them but there's always hate and preying on the interactive decks. In return I think the game is a million times better this way than it would be if every color could do everything.
6.) Clearly something non-blue but the effect of dual-fetch manabases makes a lot of them easy to abuse in decks that do in fact play blue, as you said. That can't really be helped without changing the basic structure of the format in ways I assume nobody really wants to see happen.
/edit: wow, I forgot Magus! Nice find.
Also, to collect the answers in easily readable form instead of arguing:
1.) Jace, obv.
2.) Magus might be right. Should probably be GSZ, though, and Crusader is much closer than most people think.
3.) Yep Infernal. /edit edit: Wow, I forgot ETutor exists. This is pretty close but I might have to change my answer. Definitely not Intuition over either, though.
4.) Brainstorm. Sorry Drago, BS is just miles better than anything that only manipulates the top of library instead of your whole hand.
5.) FoW, Misstep, Hymn most likely.
6.) Bob, than pretty close between Goyf and SFM. GSZ and NO make Goyf the winner, I guess.
I'll play along since Tacosnape is hell bent on making blue to be an evil color.
Jace, the Mind SculptorQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Magus of the MoonQuote:
2. What's the best single-colored 3-CMC creature in Legacy?
Infernal TutorQuote:
3. What's the best tutor in Legacy?
Sensi's Divining TopQuote:
4. What's the best card filtration spell in Legacy?
Force of Will, Mental Misstep, 3rd counter spell of your choice or discard (like Duress).Quote:
5. What's the best disruption package in Legacy?
Tarmogoyf and Dark ConfidantQuote:
6. What are the two best creatures in Legacy?
Sorry, I didn't get your answers. Vendilion is cool but not nearly as powerful as Magus in this format. He warps it far more than the fairy.Quote:
The answer to 1-5 are all Blue: Jace, Vendilion Clique, Intuition, Brainstorm, and a combination of Force/Daze/Mental Misstep/Pierce/Snare. The answer to 6 -should- be Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic, but if you want to stick Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf in there, the point still remains that splashing these creatures into a Blue deck isn't all that hard.
1. JaceQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
2. Terravore and Goblin Warchief are fine answers here. I have no idea why you made this a single-colored card; otherwise, at 3cc, Knight of the Reliquary is probably the answer. Oh, and for 1cc and 2cc, blue doesn't even come close to green and white's creatures.
3. Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, and Enlightened Tutor all see more play than Intuition.
4. Sensei's Divining Top, as DragoFireheart said.
5. Force of Will + Mental Misstep + Daze or Counterspell or Thoughtseize.
6. Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf
Question 5 is obviously going to be blue cards; disruption packages is what blue is all about.
One thing I really like about this thread is the abundance of thought and lack of overwhelmingly huge generalizations and hand waving that has to do with an abstract idea called the "color pie". /sarcasm
Seriously, stfu. Blue is a good color, yes, and it has a ton of viable threats and spells. But that does not mean it has to be played in every deck. We all play the cards that are most likely to win (or we are scrubs), and we play them in combination. I don't think that this scenario happens very often
Somebody#1: What's your deck?
Somebody#2: oh, you know... blue. I probably won't side out my FOWs.
Somebody#1: Darn. I'm playing a deck that has red in it. Time to lose.
How about some creative thought here? I've got a suggestion that would kill 2 birds with 1 stone (for all the people who are angry at the state of legacy right now). You've got the format figured out, you have x amount of money, and the meta can be summarized in one word for you (blue). The trick in this scenario is to NOT play the obvious. Try a psuedo X-card deck by running Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe and see if you can abuse the size of your GY to your advantage. How about running MD Seedtime or Eyes of the Wisent.
Now your response to me is predictable. Even though I am hitting the majority of the meta with my suggestions, Zoo, Goblins, & Combo will overrun me when I get to them and you'd rather just play "roulette" with a blue deck. Well, here's where YOU come in. It's obvious that you can make a deck to beat blue, and you know that the rest of the format is EASILY trumped by what blue has to offer. So why not just try and replicate that trumping.
I'm still going to play pox with MM.
Let's just face it- many legacy players think a top 8 or top 16 with 75% blue decks is just "normal" and "diverse". FoW+MM showing up in droves all over the place is just how it's "supposed to be".
More power to you if you enjoy this type of environment, but for Chrissakes let's not put on a big show and dance about how this is "balanced". Call a pig a pig, don't put lipstick on it and pretend it's Angelina Jolie. Let's just admit that blue sees more play than nearly the other colors combined (across all sorts of decks), that it's ridiculously dominant and leave it at that.
Edit: Did someone just say Magus of the Moon was the best 3cmc monocolor creature? And that it warps the format more than Clique? Let's face it- neither warp the format, but at least Clique is relevant.
1. What difference does it make? All 21 are too slow. Jace Beleren is probably the best, since 3cc and answer to that other overrated blue PW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
2. This one is easy - Stinkweed Imp
3. Breakthrough, into 24chain card dredging.
4. Careful Study, the swiss army knife!
5. A full set of Cabal Therapies
6. Zombie Token and Golgari Grave Troll, obviously.
ban blue!!!11Quote:
Originally Posted by gui
Interesting. I agree with Tacosnape, I think Clique is better than Magus, but only because he is blue. If moon-on-a-stick was blue, I think it'd be alot better and played more for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Other options would be Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Garruk Wildspeaker, Karn Liberated, and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Eternal Witness or Gatekeeper of Malakir. Other options; Magus of the Moon, Vendilion clique, Merrow Reejerey, Elvish Archdruid, and Goblin Warchief. Oh, and Tombstalker.Quote:
2. What's the best single-colored 3-CMC creature in Legacy?
Goblin Matron. Or Stoneforge Mystic. Maybe Burning, Cunning, or Living Wish, or Green Sun's Zenith, or Enlightened Tutor actually. Trinket Mage isn't bad though.Quote:
3. What's the best tutor in Legacy?
eta: Actually, no, the best tutor is clearly Natural Order.
Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. See also Brainstorm andJace, the Mind Sculptor, Life From the Loam and Magma Jet, as well as Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweed Imp. Of course, if this was just "card drawing", other options would be Glimpse of Nature, Thoughtcast, Goblin Ringleader, Standstill, Breakthrough, Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow.Quote:
4. What's the best card filtration spell in Legacy?
Hymn to Tourach + Pernicious Deed, or Qasali Pridemage and Path to Exile. Or Wasteland and Vindicate or Rishadan Port. Or Stifle and Daze. Or Swords to Plowshares and any of the above. Or Tangle Wire and Smokestack, or Maze of Ith and Chalice of the Void, or Devastating Dreams and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.Quote:
5. What's the best disruption package in Legacy?
It depends on what you want to disrupt, really.
Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf. Close contenders include Goblin Lackey, Goblin Welder, Goblin Lackey, Wild Nacatl, Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Priest of Titania, Lord of Atlantis, Bitterblossom, Student of Warfare, Figure of Destiny, Gigapede, Rhox War Monk, Sower of Temptation, Shriekmaw, Fauna Shaman, Noble Hierarch and a few dozen others in addition to ones listed previously.Quote:
6. What are the two best creatures in Legacy?
[Citation Needed]Quote:
The answer to 1-5 are all Blue: Jace, Vendilion Clique, Intuition, Brainstorm, and a combination of Force/Daze/Mental Misstep/Pierce/Snare. The answer to 6 -should- be Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic, but if you want to stick Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf in there, the point still remains that splashing these creatures into a Blue deck isn't all that hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
So if I play Countertop, I can reveal a Firespout to counter your Tombstalker?
No, you can't, that's part of why it's such a good three drop. It also dodges Deed and Smother!Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
You know I was thinking about this too. The cards to print are:Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
Red Sinkhole
RR1
Split Second
Destroy two target Islands
or
New Choke
GG1
Split Second
Tap two target Islands, they do not untap during their controllers untap phase (I'm sure the wording is wrong here)
Not saying this would fix all the problems but it would certainly force blue to fight for the game. Blue is pretty good at biding it's time so I'm not even sure that this boost in tempo would allow the R/G decks to monopolize.
Um, dude, Tombstalker is a two drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin