[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I think everyone's in agreement that there are several avenues we can explore as far as the main-deck is considered. There's the stock list Rausch played in Cincinnati, and there's also the Bauble list 4eak has mentioned. Either way, the deck can still explode very fast and I'm sure its Game One win percentages are through the roof.

I think our focus should shift to the sideboard here. The fact is the deck has virtually no mana, so we should ask ourselves if packing it in to relegated hate is the way to go or taking advantage of the opportunity to blend a well thought-out strategy to beat cards like Leyline, Crypt, etc. is worth considering.

Remember, it is very likely we'll be setup to play Game Two, which in turn can generate an advantage for us by giving us the opportunity to play something relevant.

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The most powerful thing I can think of to board in Game 2 on the play is Lion's Eye Diamond, especially if your list has a lot of cantrips. Plopping some zombie tokens into play Turn 1 will steal the game against most decks if you can manage it, and LED flat-out beats Relic of Progenitus unless they have fast mana to play and activate it Turn 1.

The Leylines are also enticing, obviously, as is Chancellor of the Annex. Unmask seems bad, Bojuka Bog seems good (in my opinion the best GY hate except against other Manaless decks), and Mindbreak Trap seems workable.

The thing is, all this we know. I think it's hard to discuss a sideboard without discussing the main-deck.

Alternately (and here we're getting into stupid bad stuff land) you could load up on free guys with Memnite, Basking Rootwalla, and Chancellor of the Forge, and hope to just bash your Leyline-weilding opponent to death.

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

The most powerful thing I can think of to board in Game 2 on the play is Lion's Eye Diamond, especially if your list has a lot of cantrips. Plopping some zombie tokens into play Turn 1 will steal the game against most decks if you can manage it, and LED flat-out beats Relic of Progenitus unless they have fast mana to play and activate it Turn 1.

Alternately (and here we're getting into stupid bad stuff land) you could load up on free guys with Memnite, Basking Rootwalla, and Chancellor of the Forge, and hope to just bash your Leyline-weilding opponent to death.

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Agreed about LED. I also agree about bashing with dorks. It has worked with old dredge strategies...

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Originally Posted by jin

Although I feel that Unmasking yourself isn't that great of an idea, I do feel that the deck needs a bit more disrupt. Without being cast, people often readily counters my Cabal Therapy allowing 1 or 2 in late game which has little to no affect on their hand. It might as well be a Gritixian Probe. For this reason, I feel that Unmask might be important to fill in a gap that used to be filled by a hardcasted Cabal Therapy. Either that or I'm playing Cabal Therapy wrong....



You have interesting ideas. Also, I agree with your comment about baubles. I myself choose to stick pretty closely to Rausch's main deck. I guess to most people, it feels like Rausch preboarded..



I concur.. Anti-hate seems like it requires too many of the 75 to change warping the entire deck..

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I have 1 more fresh idea:


-3 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Woodfall Primus
-1 Dread Return
- Other stuff

//Add:
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lava Dart
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
1 Sun Titan

(+1 Savannah in sideboard, to gain access to Angel's Grace)

You trade Dakmor Salvage for Chandra's Phoenix with Lava Dart. This means you can run Taiga instead of Dakmor Salvage. If you drop a fetch, you can decide later whether you want to get Dryad Arbor or Taiga. Dryad Arbor is good with Reverent Silence and Cabal Therapy/Dread Return.

You don't need Woodfall Primus anymore, since you can fly over Moat with Chandra's Phoenix, or shoot a Peacekeeper with Lava Dart. Sun Titan gives you access to your lands, triggering both landfall and returning Taiga for Lava Dart so you can swarm with ghasts and phoenixes. Lava Dart can get countered, but I still think it's worth looking into. The reason to run this is to support a sideboard that can fight through hate. This mana base gives you great sideboard options:

1 Savannah + Angel's Grace - Hive Mind and other combo
Ancient Grudge - Tormod's Crypt and Relics
Reverent Silence - Leyline of the Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon
Nature's Claim - Best disenchant

Lava Dart can also take care of Yixlid Jailer.

The deck would probably be a lot worse against the decks where you should be winning anyway, but it would be a lot stronger against the decks you have troubles against. (Combo, Burn, excessive GY hate). The reason for this is the lower threat density due to more lands, and Chandra's Phoenix requiring some setup with a land / Lava Dart or Dread Return / Sun Titan. I'm not sure if I can find the right configuration without cutting too many dredgers though, and Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog is still a problem.

So, what are you planning to do with all Chandra's Phoenixes in your hand?

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Originally Posted by Ziilot

So, what are you planning to do with all Chandra's Phoenixes in your hand?

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Phantasmagorian

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I have 1 more fresh idea:


-3 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Woodfall Primus
-1 Dread Return
- Other stuff

//Add:
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lava Dart
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
1 Sun Titan

(+1 Savannah in sideboard, to gain access to Angel's Grace)

You trade Dakmor Salvage for Chandra's Phoenix with Lava Dart. This means you can run Taiga instead of Dakmor Salvage. If you drop a fetch, you can decide later whether you want to get Dryad Arbor or Taiga. Dryad Arbor is good with Reverent Silence and Cabal Therapy/Dread Return.

You don't need Woodfall Primus anymore, since you can fly over Moat with Chandra's Phoenix, or shoot a Peacekeeper with Lava Dart. Sun Titan gives you access to your lands, triggering both landfall and returning Taiga for Lava Dart so you can swarm with ghasts and phoenixes. Lava Dart can get countered, but I still think it's worth looking into. The reason to run this is to support a sideboard that can fight through hate. This mana base gives you great sideboard options:

1 Savannah + Angel's Grace - Hive Mind and other combo
Ancient Grudge - Tormod's Crypt and Relics
Reverent Silence - Leyline of the Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon
Nature's Claim - Best disenchant

Lava Dart can also take care of Yixlid Jailer.

The deck would probably be a lot worse against the decks where you should be winning anyway, but it would be a lot stronger against the decks you have troubles against. (Combo, Burn, excessive GY hate). The reason for this is the lower threat density due to more lands, and Chandra's Phoenix requiring some setup with a land / Lava Dart or Dread Return / Sun Titan. I'm not sure if I can find the right configuration without cutting too many dredgers though, and Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog is still a problem.

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I see no reason why you would run this package. Lava Dart is exiled whenever it would leave the stack via flashback (so you've included 2 points of burn damage in the deck for basically no reason), and cannot be flashed back to deal with Yixlid Jailer. Perhaps you were thinking Flame Jab (which also cannot deal with Jailer from the GY)? Personally, I think stuffing Raven's Crime into a Dakmor Salvage list makes a lot more sense than either.

Also, Chandra's Phoenix itself seems terrible. It only recurs itself to your hand, and only then off of a flashback'ed 2-of. You can only ever cast the thing if you've already Dread Return'ed Sun Titan, in which case you'd probably just recur the Phoenix to begin with. In short, in this deck the card reads: 1RR: Flying, Haste 2/2, not some actually-worth-considering recursive creature. Finally, why would you Dread Return Sun Titan in this deck? Winning on the spot seems a lot better than jumping through a bunch of hoops for the win. There's a reason we're not running 4 Mimeoplasm, 4 Lord of Extinction, 4 Murderous Redcap to go alongside our Dread Returns (and that's probably a better package than the one you're proposing!)

Finally, I see no reason at all why your list would be better against Combo, Burn, or any other fast, non-interactive deck.

As to the utility of Woodfall Primus: He could never kill Peacekeeper to begin with. He could, however, kill Ensnaring Bridge and Propaganda and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Glacial Chasm, to name a few.

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

I see no reason why you would run this package. Lava Dart is exiled whenever it would leave the stack via flashback (so you've included 2 points of burn damage in the deck for basically no reason), and cannot be flashed back to deal with Yixlid Jailer. Perhaps you were thinking Flame Jab (which also cannot deal with Jailer from the GY)? Personally, I think stuffing Raven's Crime into a Dakmor Salvage list makes a lot more sense than either.

Also, Chandra's Phoenix itself seems terrible. It only recurs itself to your hand, and only then off of a flashback'ed 2-of. You can only ever cast the thing if you've already Dread Return'ed Sun Titan, in which case you'd probably just recur the Phoenix to begin with. In short, in this deck the card reads: 1RR: Flying, Haste 2/2, not some actually-worth-considering recursive creature. Finally, why would you Dread Return Sun Titan in this deck? Winning on the spot seems a lot better than jumping through a bunch of hoops for the win. There's a reason we're not running 4 Mimeoplasm, 4 Lord of Extinction, 4 Murderous Redcap to go alongside our Dread Returns (and that's probably a better package than the one you're proposing!)

Finally, I see no reason at all why your list would be better against Combo, Burn, or any other fast, non-interactive deck.

As to the utility of Woodfall Primus: He could never kill Peacekeeper to begin with. He could, however, kill Ensnaring Bridge and Propaganda and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Glacial Chasm, to name a few.

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I completely misread phoenix. Disregard post. As for primus, i dont like the slot too mich. I know peacekeeper is a sb card but that means you have to run other cards to deal with that, lava dart couldve been an answer if drawn into but the point is moot.

The entire reason was to afford running fetch, arbor and taiga/savannah, which give you rev silence, a. Grace, ancient grudge and natures claim, all of which are extremely good game 2/3 cards.

What I want is green and white mana, so I can afford Nature's Claim and Angel's Grace. Once you go down that path, you want to be able to fetch up Dryad Arbor. Riftstone Portal doesn't really work when there is a Leyline out, but it is the most synergistic land to get that kind of mana into play (dredge Dakmor Salvage, and cast Angel's Grace from that) but I'm pretty sure that's too slow against combo. Right now, I'm still trying Horizon Canopy and Dryad Arbor, but that makes Angel's Grace unreliable (You will hit your Dryad Arbor when you needed a Horizon Canopy) and it also makes Reverent Silence unreliable (You will have a Horizon Canopy when you needed a Dryad Arbor...). The Horizon Canopy's ability to dredge is really sweet though.In the end, these postboard shenanigans are probably best left for mana'd ichorid, and were the reason why Rausche played 15 robots in the sideboard. You could try to speed up the list against combo and resolve a Dread Return on Iona. Perhaps that's the best option, but I'm not even sure if thats good enough.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I completely misread phoenix. Disregard post. As for primus, i dont like the slot too mich. I know peacekeeper is a sb card but that means you have to run other cards to deal with that, lava dart couldve been an answer if drawn into but the point is moot.

The entire reason was to afford running fetch, arbor and taiga/savannah, which give you rev silence, a. Grace, ancient grudge and natures claim, all of which are extremely good game 2/3 cards.

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Angel's Grace is an extremely okay sideboard card. It doesn't stop any combo decks except Belcher and Hive Mind (as Tendrils of Agony causes loss of life). Against aggro decks, they'll bash you to 1, then either bash again to kill you or just burn you out on your turn.

Ancient Grudge is great. It's also completely unnecessary. What does it actually do anything against? Relic of Progenitus seems like the only card where you'd really need it, but then you're talking about missing two turns to pop the relic, at which point why not just run something else that lets you play through the tap ability?

Reverent Silence defeats Leyline of the Void, maybe, and Enchantress, probably. Doesn't seem worth it. If there's Leyline of the Void floating around, you're probably better off hoping to miss them than running Reverent Silence. Sad, but true.

Nature's Claim is the same as the others, only rolled into one card in an attempt to fool you. Don't be fooled. Against artifacts, you only really need it against Relic (assuming you've got a wise mix of DR targets in your 75), and it's not really worth it against Leyline, so why bother running it?

Hot tech/idea: If you're in a winning position Game 3 (or 2!) of Round 1 of a sufficiently large tournament, offer your opponent a draw. You lose a little bit of points but the draw bracket is going to be almost all control decks. I'd definitely run Child of Alara if you're thinking of doing this (SB or Main) as you'll probably see a lot of prison as well.

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

Hot tech/idea: If you're in a winning position Game 3 (or 2!) of Round 1 of a sufficiently large tournament, offer your opponent a draw. You lose a little bit of points but the draw bracket is going to be almost all control decks. I'd definitely run Child of Alara if you're thinking of doing this (SB or Main) as you'll probably see a lot of prison as well.

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I was considering Child of Alara as well since there are a few Enchantress players where I live, and double Sterling Grove+Elephant Grass would be quite awkward. I don't think it has wide enough applications to be seriously considered, but it's certainly something to keep in your back pocket.

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

I was considering Child of Alara as well since there are a few Enchantress players where I live, and double Sterling Grove+Elephant Grass would be quite awkward. I don't think it has wide enough applications to be seriously considered, but it's certainly something to keep in your back pocket.

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Wide enough applications? I've found it to be easily the best Angel of Despair you can run. It plays havoc on any prison deck, and blows up any defense not based on lands. He's also awesome against aggro, while similar options are merely okay (Angel of Despair) or downright ineffective (Terastodon). If it hasn't been awesome for you, you're probably using it wrong.

Here's how I use Child of Alara: Dread Return Child of Alara, nothing happens. Sacrifice Child of Alara to Dread Return. Before Dread Return resolves, Child of Alara triggers and wipes the game. Then Dread Return resolves. You now have a giant guy and they have a manabase. Ideally, that giant guy is Realm Razer (or Sundering Titan, but he's a little narrow for my tastes). In tandem, this allows you to answer basically any board position. (Iona on Black and Trinisphere being the only obvious exceptions). If they didn't have any creatures, you actually get a giant guy and a horde of zombies.

The nice thing about Realm Razer in particular is that he can answer a lot of decks and locks by himself. Most locks requires mana to sustain themselves, including Solitary Confinement and Peacekeeper (and even Ensnaring Bridge to some degree), so removing the opposing manabase is often lethal, with a few turns' delay.

Obviously, the whole chain requires 2 Dread Return to function, but even if you use Cabal Therapy to sacrifice Child of Alara, you have Ichorid to give you a quick victory.

What I like best about the spectral baby is how wide his applications really are. Child of Alara can hit everything except lands, which is (imo) what you hit the least with your other targets.

What I meant to say was, "wide enough applications where it would be better than Angel of Despair or Terastodon/Woodfall Primus." But yeah, I definitely wasn't thinking about it correctly when I thought of it as a way around problem permanents, I was thinking about it alone instead of in tandem with another Return target; the 1-2 punch that Child of Alara and Realm Razer throw is mighty devastating against prison and lock decks, really just slow decks in general. It has a downside in that your Bridges will likely get removed, but that really won't matter because of Ichorid and Nether Shadow recursion, and the Zombie tokens you'll have likely receiveed. Also, because of Cabal Therapy, an opponent's comeback would be quite unlikely (although, there are several small outs an opponent could have, like Tundra->topdecked StP, but that's really not going to cut it against the rest of your army of Zombies). I like it, and will for sure test it out. Definitely seems like it could potentially replace Angel/The Rasta Don/Primus altogether in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

What I meant to say was, "wide enough applications where it would be better than Angel of Despair or Terastodon/Woodfall Primus." But yeah, I definitely wasn't thinking about it correctly when I thought of it as a way around problem permanents, I was thinking about it alone instead of in tandem with another Return target; the 1-2 punch that Child of Alara and Realm Razer throw is mighty devastating against prison and lock decks, really just slow decks in general. It has a downside in that your Bridges will likely get removed, but that really won't matter because of Ichorid and Nether Shadow recursion, and the Zombie tokens you'll have likely receiveed. Also, because of Cabal Therapy, an opponent's comeback would be quite unlikely (although, there are several small outs an opponent could have, like Tundra->topdecked StP, but that's really not going to cut it against the rest of your army of Zombies). I like it, and will for sure test it out. Definitely seems like it could potentially replace Angel/The Rasta Don/Primus altogether in the sideboard.

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If Child of Alara going to the graveyard triggers and destroys everything, you only wind up with zombie tokens if your Bridge from Below are safe in the graveyard.

Here's how it works:
Stack - First to resolve
Child of Alara's death trigger
Bridge from Below Trigger
Bridge from Below Trigger
Stack - Last to resolve

so first the world blows up then you get tokens. Any other ordering obviously destroys some or all of your tokens with Child of Alara's effect.

If they have creatures, though, it looks like this:
Stack - First to resolve
Child of Alara's death trigger => Exile Bridges
Bridge from Below Trigger
Bridge from Below Trigger
Stack - Last to resolve

Obviously, if you stack it any other way, you're still exiling Bridge from Below's and winding up with 0 zombie tokens.

Right, you won't get any tokens from Child itself if the opponent has creatures, but you will if you stack it properly via all Narcomoebas/Ichorids/Nether Shadows that would have been in play when "Destroy all nonland permanents" resolves (of course, if your opponent has no creatures in play, Bridges stay safe and sound). Meaning, you should try to sac creature tokens to Dread Return if possible before any creatures in this scenario, since any tokens made before the "Destroy all nonland permanents" trigger will be dead and gone.

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

The Leylines are also enticing, obviously, as is Chancellor of the Annex. Unmask seems bad, Bojuka Bog seems good (in my opinion the best GY hate except against other Manaless decks), and Mindbreak Trap seems workable.

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I fail to see how being forced to pass the turn and allowing your opponent to draw a card, play a land, and more than likely run out some form of relegated hate adversely affects the power of Unmask out of the sideboard. I think you're underestimating its utility in a deck using very little mana, especially when it has the ability to run the deck out of the gates a turn faster than usual.

I could see it as one of the most powerful cards out of the sideboard to speed the deck up a full turn. Your opponent is not going to keep a card like Force of Will in their deck as the only necessary spell it hits is Dread Return, which becomes moot anyways as you should already be in position to run them over with multiple threats on board and Cabal Therapy at the ready. Unmask is the only spell in existence that allows you to proactively discard a card for free from your hand - without necessitating a land-drop - as that kind of utility in a deck like this seems far too good to dismiss without proper testing.

Unmask on the forced play will dodge cards like Daze and Spell Pierce, and it obviously gets around Mental Misstep. It punishes an opponent for forcing you to be on the play. Giving an opponent the chance to get that far ahead without having any action before your third turn seems relatively bad without some way of actually doing something.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I fail to see how being forced to pass the turn and allowing your opponent to draw a card, play a land, and more than likely run out some form of relegated hate adversely affects the power of Unmask out of the sideboard. I think you're underestimating its utility in a deck using very little mana, especially when it has the ability to run the deck out of the gates a turn faster than usual.

I could see it as one of the most powerful cards out of the sideboard to speed the deck up a full turn. Your opponent is not going to keep a card like Force of Will in their deck as the only necessary spell it hits is Dread Return, which becomes moot anyways as you should already be in position to run them over with multiple threats on board and Cabal Therapy at the ready. Unmask is the only spell in existence that allows you to proactively discard a card for free from your hand - without necessitating a land-drop - as that kind of utility in a deck like this seems far too good to dismiss without proper testing.

Unmask on the forced play will dodge cards like Daze and Spell Pierce, and it obviously gets around Mental Misstep. It punishes an opponent for forcing you to be on the play. Giving an opponent the chance to get that far ahead without having any action before your third turn seems relatively bad without some way of actually doing something.

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Lion's Eye Diamond seems orders of magnitude better, when you're talking about making yourself discard.

As a disruptive tool, Unmask is generally too little too late.

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

Lion's Eye Diamond seems orders of magnitude better, when you're talking about making yourself discard.

As a disruptive tool, Unmask is generally too little too late.

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You're using Unmask as a discard outlet for yourself on the play Games Two and Three; you put yourself at even greater risk with L.E.D. as it forces you to immediately fold to Leyline or Crypt. Unmask provides you a way of slow-Dredging without over-committing to one card. Unmask should intentionally be used as a discard outlet for yourself, or if you're on the play and discard a card your second turn, you can Dredge and use Unmask as an aversion against cards like Relic of Progenitus. In this instance, you have given yourself the flexibility to work around the card you've manually discarded with the extra-added ability of discarding another card with the outlet Unmask provides. It's solid bait for an opponent to bite on.

Also, supposing you're relegated to being on the play Game Two and you have a Leyline of the Void in your opening grip (if you opt to run them); you drop Leyline and go down to six. You now have to wait three turns before you do anything, and even then, you need to wait until the fourth for it to be relevant. Unmask at least gives you an out to discarding on the first or second turn as opposed to the third. That seems quite effective.

It's basically two-fold, with its primary utility as a free out on the first turn or targeted at an opponent turn three. At worst, it's a free discard spell that doesn't require any lands. Lion's Eye Diamond requires a full commitment, something this deck doesn't seem to enjoy partaking in as it only really requires a single outlet to do the most damage (Gigapede and/or Phantasmagorian). The key part of all of this discussion again rests on the shoulders of thought that the deck just sucks it up and takes a loss when relegated hate hits the table, which is wrong. If there is a way around that, we should be tackling it post-board. It might require changing the deck schematically, but if we can find the right configuration, it's flat-out better than losing.

On a side-note: I have pretty much been happy at three Phantasmagorian; it seems like the right number. I am just really interested at what everyone's take on the sideboard is.

Eh, I'd say ditching three cards via Unmask (a minimum of two) is already overcommitting enough, you might as well go all out and play LED (risks a minimum of one card, doesn't an exile a black card to cast which can actually be somewhat important, and has higher gains).

I'm kind of liking LED (or Unmask, if you prefer to play it) conceptually out of the board game two after you win game one- it means you can now mulligan and not be completely screwed, and as Hollywood pointed out, it has exceptional synergy with Leylines (specifically Leyline of Sanctity, which I consider to be the only playable one in this deck). Since I have absolutely nothing set in stone for the sideboard, especially now that Child of Alara/Realm Razer could feasibly take the place of Angel/Rasta Don/Primus, this could be a good starting point to test with.

I like the idea of LED against combo and aggro, especially since it allows you to run Deep Analysis as well ... but it also opens up more vulnerabilities to hate cards. I would agree with Hollywood since Unmask does not make you overcommit. LED just makes u go balls and, and if u got nothing to follow it up with, u just flat out lose. Unmask sets u back but avoids this. It really depends on what you want to do with the deck and each players' particular playstyle. I have and always will hate LED in dredge because of the all-in factor, but thats me.

I am not sure I am getting where u are wanting to go with Child of Alara. Ur goal is to clear the board, remove ur Bridges, reset the board, then start beating face with Ichorids and Shadows again? If so, does this lose to StP. I mean, if u have no DR or Therapy in the yard, its 100% worthless, but if u do, does the opponent ever get priority to remove it? I don't think they do but ... this could be a serious problem if so. Also, where would this be better than Angel of Despair ... maybe against Enchantress, but they usually rebuild ungodly fast and lock us out of the game with Wheel of Sun and Moon anyway, seems like a horrid match to work on. But I can't really see where it would be than Angel/Terrastodon/Primus.

Also, some interesting food for thought, Edge of Autumn. If u run 4x Bloodghast, 4x Salvage, this could be another powerful uncounterable draw spell that has the added benefit of being super explosive w Bloodghast. Downside is that it is 100% reliant on the Salvage, but if can't get countered like my very disliked Probe. This is something I really like in theory but is totally untested, may have potential.

I have added Greater Mossdog and totally cut Bloodghast/Salvage from my list and really like it. I am only running 4x Bauble, 4x Wraith with 4x DR, 2x Sphinx, 1x FKZ main and it really is enough. I really like the consistency of having more 3+ dredgers and its in there over Darkblast since it is a creature in the yard to bring back more Shadows. Bloodghast is still solid but he feels really unneeded. I never, ever want to dredge back Salvage, but when I do, it seems like I am always winning and this is just win-more. There just seems to be no situation that this deck can get itself into that dredge 2, reanimate Bloodghast would be ... needed. Does anyone feel the same about it?

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

I like the idea of LED against combo and aggro, especially since it allows you to run Deep Analysis as well ... but it also opens up more vulnerabilities to hate cards. I would agree with Hollywood since Unmask does not make you overcommit. LED just makes u go balls and, and if u got nothing to follow it up with, u just flat out lose. Unmask sets u back but avoids this. It really depends on what you want to do with the deck and each players' particular playstyle. I have and always will hate LED in dredge because of the all-in factor, but thats me.

I am not sure I am getting where u are wanting to go with Child of Alara. Ur goal is to clear the board, remove ur Bridges, reset the board, then start beating face with Ichorids and Shadows again? If so, does this lose to StP. I mean, if u have no DR or Therapy in the yard, its 100% worthless, but if u do, does the opponent ever get priority to remove it? I don't think they do but ... this could be a serious problem if so. Also, where would this be better than Angel of Despair ... maybe against Enchantress, but they usually rebuild ungodly fast and lock us out of the game with Wheel of Sun and Moon anyway, seems like a horrid match to work on. But I can't really see where it would be than Angel/Terrastodon/Primus.

Also, some interesting food for thought, Edge of Autumn. If u run 4x Bloodghast, 4x Salvage, this could be another powerful uncounterable draw spell that has the added benefit of being super explosive w Bloodghast. Downside is that it is 100% reliant on the Salvage, but if can't get countered like my very disliked Probe. This is something I really like in theory but is totally untested, may have potential.

I have added Greater Mossdog and totally cut Bloodghast/Salvage from my list and really like it. I am only running 4x Bauble, 4x Wraith with 4x DR, 2x Sphinx, 1x FKZ main and it really is enough. I really like the consistency of having more 3+ dredgers and its in there over Darkblast since it is a creature in the yard to bring back more Shadows. Bloodghast is still solid but he feels really unneeded. I never, ever want to dredge back Salvage, but when I do, it seems like I am always winning and this is just win-more. There just seems to be no situation that this deck can get itself into that dredge 2, reanimate Bloodghast would be ... needed. Does anyone feel the same about it?

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You only bring in LED against the decks that are fast enough to disregard GY hate. With a bunch of cantrips (and ideally, playing first) you can race basically any deck.

Child of Alara is really, really good. Try it, and if you don't like it run something else. You can maintain priority as Child enters and cast another spell, such as a flashback'ed Cabal Therapy or Dread Return. Beating down on an empty board only loses to Swords to Plowshares if they have enough for all your attackers, which is unlikely. Even if they drew the full playset, even the 2-Nether Shadow lists I favor tend to recur more than 4 creatures in a game, not to mention zombie tokens.

I agree that Bloodghast just isn't necessary for the deck, although he does help somewhat against GY hate as he sticks around (and has 2, rather than 1, power).

I don't like Edge of Autumn (it tends to be the butt of my manaless/bloodghast jokes), but if you're already on 4x Dakmor Salvage, some number of Edges couldn't hurt... too much.

Greater Mossdog is probably the wrong choice. Darkblast (with Dakmor Salvage) helps deal with random guys that need dealing with (mostly Peacekeeper, but Yixlid Jailer if you're un/lucky), and Golgari Brownscale gains life. Necroplasm only has Dredge 2 but can be fed to Ichorid. I would say recurring Ichorid is more important than recurring Nether Shadow (and more likely to happen on its own, as GY order doesn't matter), but the insurance provided by Darkblast seems more important than either.

Every game you lose with LED vs Tormod's Crypt you lose with Unmask vs Tormod's Crypt, you are not comming back at -3 cards.

If you guys want to play LED, I recommend playing the original Manaless Dredge deck I posted on the first page and then SBing into something more consistent. I still think that deck has ton a ton of promise conceptually speaking.

Salvage/Ghast is only for game 2 and 3, you want every recursion mechanic you can get your hands on to fight thru' hate post-board.