Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

I say no:

If brainstorm is banned:
1) Blue becomes neutered, true, but I think blue's dominance is largely consistent because of brainstorm but banning brainstorm still will not neuter blue (just run Ponder/Preordain and change your playouts a little on when to cantrip and not cantrip etc).

2) Blue has received way more good cards that simply banning brainstorm will weaken it. It's true that non-blue decks could be more viable with Brainstorm gone, but that is not true once again because combo will start preying on the format with brainstorm gone. Combo NEEDS brainstorm to truly shine, but control/blue also NEEDS brainstorm to fight combo etc. Brainstorm gone means that faster combo that win with raw power e.g. Belcher/TES (to some extent) would see a big power-increase. These are exactly the combo decks that non-blue aggro decks are weak against i.e. combo with potential of turn 1 kills.

3) Brainstorm gone means that many cards will be at risk on getting banned or at least monitored closely. This is because blue is a defining pillar and glue that holds or dominates (whatever word you choose to use here) the format. Once blue is weakened, a lot of changes will occur (could be good or bad but don't bet your balls that nothing else will get banned). It should be really format re-defining is brainstorm is banned and blue is neutered slightly.

4) Brainstorm banned, just expect Sensei's Top to be played EVERYWHERE. Top is slower than Brainstorm but once resolved and if you can maintain a slower game against your opponent, Top single-handedly beats Brainstorm for its value througout the game. Then Top will get banned, and we lose many more archetypes. Eventually Legacy is just going to end up like a better version of Modern. Sad, really not looking forward to it.

My predictions: Brainstorm gets banned, blue is still good, nothing gets solved except Legacy lost a sea of players who are disappointed that the format simply becomes one where people refuse to adapt and a format where the DCI appeals to the crowd mentality.

On the Survival issue: I was always saddened by Survival's ban. It had 6 years of history backing it up that it was a fair strategy. Vengevine and a lack of answers in the past pushed Vengevival to being one of the strongest and more resilient archetypes in Legacy. Given that today we have Surgical Extractions (including Snapcasters), I really feel that they printed extraction a little too late, or the Survival ban didn't take into consideration that the format can adjust and adapt to itself.

My only MAIN concern with people bitching for a brainstorm ban:

If you feel Brainstorm is THAT powerful and you're not playing Brainstorm, then why do you not play hate cards that really destroy brainstorm.dec? e.g. Chains of Mephistopheles, Extirpate (This is really LOL on Brainstorm BTW). It's not like you fear Brainstorm enough to hate on it v.s. fearing the 4 Survival, 1 ANT (boarding in 8 hate-cards e.g. MBTrap, Chants) or 4 Flash back in those metagames.

If you then argue that I do play a Brainstorm deck because decks with brainstorms are the best decks in Legacy, then why do we still consistently see non-blue decks that destroy said such blue decks? e.g. Goblins/Maverick?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

That was some amazing side-stepping you did there. Lets try again:

Tell me CorpT, why should I play an aggro deck that beats up on blue decks but auto-loses to combo when I could play a blue deck or a combo deck that doesn't auto-lose to anything?

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You're arguments are pretty bad.

This phrase means nothing. Go play blue. Thats what CorpT was saying all along. You either play blue or go home.

Thats why we want a ban on brainstorm to encourage other decks to have a chance at top 8. Right now, the top 8s are all tempo, U/W blade, and blue decks with brainstorms.

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

Goblins/Maverick?

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Goblins - show me a single top 8 at big torney after Jim Davis at SCG Invitational ?!?! If they unban recruiter with the same style like they did with Time Spiral, we can see some goblin decks.

Again we are stuck to one viable non - blue tier 1 deck.

Why does everyone keep touting answers to brainstorm, like Chains of Mephistopheles?

They're hard to find, they're expensive, and if they become "necessary" to compete against brainstorm deck then they become even more expensive and hard to find ala Moat...

Chains isn't an answer unless you already have them, and for most people trying to get into the format they are simply not an option.

Play Mono Black. Some thing like:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dismember
4 Dark Confidant

20 Other Spells

20 Swamp

Beats Combo, control and aggro. Pretty soon this thread will become the "Ban Hymn" campaign.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Play Mono Black. Some thing like:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dismember
4 Dark Confidant

20 Other Spells

20 Swamp

Beats Combo, control and aggro. Pretty soon this thread will become the "Ban Hymn" campaign.

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But why wouldn't you play blue in a deck like this? In those 20 empty slots, wouldn't you want to play the best card in the format, Brainstorm? And Force of Will, at that point? Aren't both of those cards simply better than anything in black?

It's not like playing two colors is particularly hard in this format.

Any time I see a deck with twenty basic anything I wonder why it's not playing blue. And if it's twenty Islands, I wonder why it's not playing any two of white, black, red, or green.

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Originally Posted by Roman Candle

But why wouldn't you play blue in a deck like this? In those 20 empty slots, wouldn't you want to play the best card in the format, Brainstorm? And Force of Will, at that point? Aren't both of those cards simply better than anything in black?

It's not like playing two colors is particularly hard in this format.

Any time I see a deck with twenty basic anything I wonder why it's not playing blue. And if it's twenty Islands, I wonder why it's not playing any two of white, black, red, or green.

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Is that conducive (I probably spelled that wrong) to a healthy format?

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Originally Posted by Sims

Is that conducive (I probably spelled that wrong) to a healthy format?

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Not at all, that's the point.

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Originally Posted by Roman Candle

But why wouldn't you play blue in a deck like this? In those 20 empty slots, wouldn't you want to play the best card in the format, Brainstorm? And Force of Will, at that point? Aren't both of those cards simply better than anything in black?

It's not like playing two colors is particularly hard in this format.

Any time I see a deck with twenty basic anything I wonder why it's not playing blue. And if it's twenty Islands, I wonder why it's not playing any two of white, black, red, or green.

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Price of Progress
Wasteland
Back to Basics
Surgical Extraction


I think the fact that Legacy is so mulitcolored is largely why the anti-brainstorm comments exist. Dual lands are first and foremost what define Legacy. Saying that 80% of decks include a land that counts as an Island is no different than saying 80% include Plains. A more accurate approach here would be to say how many include Brainstorm. This, still, is not a good argument for banning. With that logic than Swords to Plowshares should be under the micsroscope too. Or wait, what about Wasteland? More decks can splash a colorless land than those that can find room for Brainstorm AND the U needed to cast it.

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Originally Posted by Sims

Why does everyone keep touting answers to brainstorm, like Chains of Mephistopheles?

They're hard to find, they're expensive, and if they become "necessary" to compete against brainstorm deck then they become even more expensive and hard to find ala Moat...

Chains isn't an answer unless you already have them, and for most people trying to get into the format they are simply not an option.

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If chains where instant it would be much better. No one in their right mind will ever cast a brainstorm into a chain... If a new chain was made but instant it would be possible to surpice someone with it.

I hear many voices saing about color inbalance in top decks, but since when this game is about playing colors? Just play cards, not colors!

Comparing Survival ban to current Brainstorm state is not in place, those cards have completely different story behind them.
SotF was tier 1,5 at best, and got too powerful with Vengevine release, completely changing the format, while Brainstorm is tier 1 since the beginning, and Snapcaster release didn't changed the format that much. SM is just nice addition in certain deck types, while he is really poor in other, just people have to realize the card is not so great and basically overhyped.

Legacy without Brainstorm would change dramatically, possibly leading to next problems and ban-wishes, but it is to hard to predict what would happen, and I don't believe anybody will take the risk of banning it.

Instead of supporting restrictions, Legacy players should be more inventive, developing wide range of new archetypes instead of jumping onto bandwagons.

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Originally Posted by Shtchepahn

Instead of supporting restrictions, Legacy players should be more inventive, developing wide range of new archetypes instead of jumping onto BANwagons.

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Fixed.

Just kidding. I agree, this game is about inventive deck building and winning in creative ways. There are many viable achetypes, even ones that include Isalnds but not Brainstorm. This sort of "problem" that arises (I don't think it's a problem) should be met by a deck that can beat the metagame. That's why we call them Decks To Beat. Not so we can all look at the list and say we need 4x of one particular card. But so we can look at what strategies are prevalent and how we can beat them.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Price of Progress
Wasteland
Back to Basics
Surgical Extraction

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I really don't think any of these are a good argument not to play two colors. Four Underground Seas is pretty negligible in the face of Price or Progress, Wasteland, and Back to Basics, especially when you can Polluted Delta for a basic Island.

And I really really doubt people are bringing in Surgical Extraction against your UB control deck. And if they are, you're going to win because they're playing terrible terrible cards like Surgical Extraction instead of good cards.

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With that logic than Swords to Plowshares should be under the micsroscope too.

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Swords to Plowshares is a Swords to Plowshares. Brainstorm can be anything. It can even be a Swords to Plowshares.

The argument to ban Brainstorm isn't that its too popular, its that its too good -- its popularity is simply one of many indicators of this. If the argument was simply that "popularity = banworthiness," we wouldn't even be having this discussion. We're having this discussion because Jesus Christ have you played with Brainstorm? It's head and shoulders above any other card in the format. And while there are certainly arguments not to play Swords to Plowshares in a deck, not playing Brainstorm in a Legacy deck is legitimately a bad strategic choice.

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Originally Posted by Roman Candle

The argument to ban Brainstorm isn't that its too popular, its that its too good

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That isn't a useful argument. There will always be some best legal cards. You can't just ban each card that is the best. Banned cards are the ones like Survival or Misstep that completely polarize the format. Brainstorm doesn't do that, no matter how much you might hate the color blue.

Its funny because both Survival of the Fittest/Vengevine and Brainstorm/Snapcaster Mage issue can be resolved by using graveyard hate as a deck building standard.

I mean if decks can put creature removal on the main, why not graveyard hate?

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Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy

That isn't a useful argument. There will always be some best legal cards. You can't just ban each card that is the best. Banned cards are the ones like Survival or Misstep that completely polarize the format. Brainstorm doesn't do that, no matter how much you might hate the color blue.

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I'm not arguing to ban it because its the best card, i'm arguing for a ban because its too good. The two concepts are wholly different.

And if you don't think that Brainstorm is polarizing, I have some Taigas to sell you for the price of any blue dual.

NOPE

I am honestly very, very surprised to see people talking about banning SCM and Delver. We have only had the cards for a handful of weeks... Give the format some time to adjust, seriously, this was faster than people started crying about Mental Misstep.

This is supposed to be one of the better Legacy communities, but there does seem to be a lack of wanting to innovate... There are decks that beat t1 Delver people

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Originally Posted by Roman Candle

Swords to Plowshares is a Swords to Plowshares. Brainstorm can be anything. It can even be a Swords to Plowshares.

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Brainstorm can only be whatever you find in the top 3. The rest of your 60 can only dictate what you find. DCI has removed virtually every "tutor" from the format, now one that says "search 5% of your deck, put some of those in your hand, don't shuffle afterward and put 2 dead cards in it's place"? Yes, it is good, especially with Fetchlands. I have played it too. And Dark Confidant. And Jace. And Sylvan Library. Wait, remember Sylvan or Brainstorm/Abundance? Talk about broken.

Typical that a blue hater like CorpT would bow out once challenged. Either that or he's busy.

Riddle me this: if Brainstorm is so powerful for blue decks, then why does the only competitive mono-blue deck (Merfolk) not use Brainstorm in more than 19 top eight decks in the past 4 years?

I' am voting for No because:

-I don't see how Snapcaster broke Brainstorm. I almost never flashbacked Brainstorm with it and almost never got it flashbacked against me. (maybe I just didn't get the title right)
-The impact of Banning Brainstorm is unpredictable and I personally think that the Meta will become less diverse. The Meta will definitely change but what makes people so sure that the Meta will become more diverse or better in general?
-Brainstorm is not broken in a way, let's say Flash was. In general I have the opinion that Banning should only happen if absolutely necessary (e.g. a Combo dominating everything, no answers or not enough answers exist, invalidating a large number of deck-types,..).