[Deck] U/R Delver

So I went to a 30 man tournament today, my list wasn't particularly amazing, but it wasn't particularly awful either.

//Creatures:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer

//Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Price of Progress
4x Rift Bolt
3x Preordain
3x Spell Pierce
3x Lava Spike
2x Fireblast

//Lands:
1x Volcanic Island
3x Mountain
2x Island
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard:
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Submerge
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Pyroblast

So, I did terribly in any event. For one, I feel the deck needs Snapcaster mage--decks these days are too good at not dying to die to our shit. I could have won many, many more games had I had snapcasters in the deck (which I fortunately traded for +3 Snapcaster's and +1 Volcanic Island at that very tournament, I'll be posting what my new decklist is going to be afterwards).

I'll briefly describe the games since most of them were somewhat linear in nature..

Match 1: UWR(?) Patriot control thing..
This was probably UW tempo, he dropped Volcanics, but in both games I never saw a red card..I can only imagine VI's were in play for some reason, so I'm fairly certain it was some Patriot variant.

Jitte hit the table, I got wrecked, I boarded for Jitte, it got countered, Jitte wrecked me. Fetched mostly basics, PoP never hit for more than 2.

Match 2: UWG(?) Bant control thing..
Again, green there, never saw green cards, after the games he let me know that it's for the 2x Sylvan Library's he ran..

Jitte hit the table, I got wrecked, I boarded for Jitte, I killed Jitte early, Jace + Elspeth beat me while he fetched basics / spell snared what worthless PoP's I could cast.

Match 3: Deadguy Ale
I really should have won this, game 1 I just didn't make it there before (Guess what!) Jitte hit the board and wrecked me. Game 2, I keep a one-land hand with a brainstorm, otherwise solid, land is a basic island, bad call. Brainstorm, nothing. Somehow I go through 26 cards before finding...another basic island. This was the only game in the entire tournament where 18 lands hurt me, they were all clumped up (after stack shuffling) on the bottom of my library. I took him to 2 life with 2 delver's before he stabilized, got a jitte(!!) and killed me. I was kind of disappointed and frustrated at this point that 5 games in a row jitte just absolutely dominated my shit and wasn't thinking terribly clearly. A mulligan to six and I would have won the series, I'm rather confidant of it--we played like 3 or 4 more games because the guy was very nice and I won most of them.

Match 4: Super jank mono red burn

I won, he cheated a lot (frequently wouldn't take damage from being hit, was adding buffs to Kiln Fiend off of creatures, didn't tap to play things) but I didn't really care because it was like a 100 card super casual burn deck. He asked if it would be cool if we played 3 games no matter what, because we're here to play magic, and I'm like yeah whatever, so I win 2-0, we play again, I keep some dumb hand because I don't really care, he wins and reports the score as 2-1--he was a really nice guy, this kinda bothered me though. Overall, I didn't really care because I was clearly not in top8 and I don't really give a shit, but in retrospect if he wants to play in more tournaments I probably should have called him out (in a nice way obvi) on everything..

Match 5: GW Maverick

Narrowly lost game 1, game 2 I got blown out. Game one he had 4 non basics in play, I PoP > Fireblast > Lightning bolt for 15, he's at 14, he STP's his own thrun and lives, stabilizes, beats me to death with an arbor carrying a sword. Game two he plays around PoP (at one point even just burning his own lands with wasteland) and I lose..

It's true, Snapcaster Mage is a card for decks that want to see the mid to late game, but more importantly, it's a card that operates in the mid to late game very well. Just because this deck can win fast on a goldfish, doesn't mean it'll ever happen. In every game I played, my creatures were removed, my PoP's were countered, people hardcore played around PoP with surprising numbers of basics (UWR had 4 islands and 2 plains out at one point).

Mana was never really an issue except for that one flukey game, I frequently had 2-3 mana in hand each game, but not a single game went quickly. People run counters, lots of them, oddly enough I was never hit with a force once--just spell snares and pierces and dazes. Getting my VI wasted was literally never relevant, it happened a lot but it didn't really impact the game. The only remotely fast game was against Maverick and it was because he didn't play around PoP and it blew him up hard, and then he lived, I didn't top deck a bolt and lost.

Here's the new list I'll be running:

//Creatures:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Price of Progress
3x Ponder
3x Lava Spike
3x Spell Pierce

//Lands:
2x Volcanic Island
2x Mountain
2x Island
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard:
3x Submerge
2x Fireblast
1x Price of Progress
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Pyroblast

I've been to about three tournaments now, none of them particularly large--between 30-40 people--and I've only ever seen 0 people playing combo so, mindbreak traps are out. Eventually, Submerge will be some more useful artifact hate. I really hate Jitte. I might even just board some Jitte's...to kill Jitte's.

Since Jitte and Batterscull see so much play together with SFM, why not play 2 Sulfuric Vortex main? It totally goes along with the burn plan, setting every opponent on a clock and also prevents life gain.

Spell Snare and Smash to Smithereens (4x) are excellent answers to SFM/Jitte/Batterskull. Shattering Spree is also good against a counterwall. Try them out if you haven't already.


peace,
4eak

At 3cc, Vortex is hitting the table only a single turn before you should be winning the game in many cases. That's one expensive Shock.

Also, your entire deck answers SFM, so the only way your opponent is ever likely to get a Batterskull into play is by hardcasting it, which, unless they want to walk into Daze, means it won't hit play until turn 6, and won't be able to attack until turn 7. That's way, way too slow. If you haven't won the game by turn 7, you've probably lost anyway.

At best, Vortex is a sideboard card against decks with life gain, but against Batterskull/Jitte, Smash to Smithereens and Spell Snare are better answers.

Yeah, batterskull wasn't much of a problem, just Jitte. 4eak is correct though, I should be packing spell snares over spell pierces as the only problematic cards for this deck reside in the 2cc area--Jitte, SFM, etc.

Turn 4 wins feel like a difficult claim to make however, even at it's fastest I never won a game by turn 4, my creatures would be killed, price of progress would be snared. Gold fishing turn 4 wins all day, but when player interactions come up and people STP their own creatures / wasteland their own land to avoid huge damage, counterspells, things that can block things, it just rarely works out that way unless they have no protection and no removal.

Snapcaster I think will help a lot there. However, people playing around PoP felt like it hurt the most. I've never seen so many tri-color decks repping out -that- many basics. Also, twelve fetches felt like a -lot-. I would have been fine with 8, most of the time I wished they were just mountains or islands so I wouldn't hit myself so hard getting land out.

@Kich: So I guess you're running Spike over Chain Lightning for budget?

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

@Kich: So I guess you're running Spike over Chain Lightning for budget?

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Kinda-sorta? I already have enough things that kill creatures..Chain Lightning can be turned on delver / guide / etc. They're both sorceries, they're both going to be aimed at the player..

Well, I don't always have a Spell Snare on hand when Jitte hits the table and with all this counter backup I usually don't win at turn 4. So Vortex is great lategame card, especially when you're in topdecking mode. I also made a couple of bad experiences when I cast Fireblast and it get's FoW. Left with an island is huge drawback, so Vortex could be run in its spot...?

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

Well, I don't always have a Spell Snare on hand when Jitte hits the table and with all this counter backup I usually don't win at turn 4. So Vortex is great lategame card, especially when you're in topdecking mode. I also made a couple of bad experiences when I cast Fireblast and it get's FoW. Left with an island is huge drawback, so Vortex could be run in its spot...?

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I wouldn't really cast fireblast for it's alternate cost unless you're absolutely positive you will win the game or it's drawback destroys superfluous mountains.

I frequently hit 5-6 lands throughout play if the game drags on and saccing the mountains is rarely an issue. I wouldn't do it if it leaves you with just an island unless you're absolutely going to win, unless you're going to die that turn. Granted, I removed fireblasts from the main but I kind of want to bring them back for the explosiveness of them, and people having 4 health left has been oddly consistent for me..

Speaking of which, I don't know what the hell it is with this deck, but I run 18 lands, and in a 5 round tournament of which I played 10 rounds + 6-10 casual games, I had 4 land opening hands in almost every game but 3, one of which I distinctly recall keeping a one-lander and not hitting a land for 26 cards (I still almost won with a basic island and delver's, that game was dumb, we were both mana screwed and delvers + the guy's bob almost killed him) and the other two were very nice 2 land hands. Even in playtesting, I nail like 3-4 land hands almost every time with the very, very rare no-land hand (happened twice in about 40 games so far).

It's almost frustrating how often I run into 4 land hands as they're nearly unable to be kept unless I have like, a delver and ponder/brainstorm to ditch that shit.

I cast Fireblast with one mana in pool and faced a daze witch I payed and then he cast a brainstorm and found force... I don't remember if I was going to die the next turn, but I definetly don't get mana flooded. I usually play 3 lands and keep a fetch in hand together with the ones I draw until I see a brainstorm and shuffle them away for other cards. I've never seen a game with 5 lands. And I only keep four for Snapcaster into Price.

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Kinda-sorta? I already have enough things that kill creatures..Chain Lightning can be turned on delver / guide / etc. They're both sorceries, they're both going to be aimed at the player..

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Lava Spike and Chain Lightning are in different leagues. Chain Lightning is almost strictly better than Lava Spike. I can count on one hand how many times Chain Lightning's drawback mattered in my experience. I cannot recommend highly enough playing burn which targets creatures (with ease, thus not Fireblast).

It sounds like you play a blitzkrieg strategy, and perhaps it is uncommon for you to play an aggro-control role with your burn spells. It should be very common to play burn as removal; it should be commmon enough that you readily admit that Lava Spike is far worse than Chain Lightning. If the blitzkrieg 'combo' route is really what you are after, Mono Red Burn/Sligh is better at this role, by miles (as is Zoo). If you can't see why Chain Lightning is head and shoulders better than Lava Spike in this deck, then I believe you've misunderstood the deck in general.

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I frequently hit 5-6 lands throughout play if the game drags...I run 18 lands, and in a 5 round tournament of which I played 10 rounds + 6-10 casual games, I had 4 land opening hands in almost every game but 3, one of which I distinctly recall keeping a one-lander and not hitting a land for 26 cards

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You are either unlucky (which is highly possible given that you are looking at a sample of 35 games, which is very small) or you are doing something wrong if this happens frequently. You are saving your extra lands for Brainstorm, right?



peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by 4eak

Lava Spike and Chain Lightning are in different leagues. Chain Lightning is almost strictly better than Lava Spike. I can count on one hand how many times Chain Lightning's drawback mattered in my experience. I cannot recommend highly enough playing burn which targets creatures (with ease, thus not Fireblast).

It sounds like you play a blitzkrieg strategy, and perhaps it is uncommon for you to play an aggro-control role with your burn spells. It should be very common to play burn as removal; it should be commmon enough that you readily admit that Lava Spike is far worse than Chain Lightning. If the blitzkrieg 'combo' route is really what you are after, Mono Red Burn/Sligh is better at this role, by miles (as is Zoo). If you can't see why Chain Lightning is head and shoulders better than Lava Spike in this deck, then I believe you've misunderstood the deck in general.



You are either unlucky (which is highly possible given that you are looking at a sample of 35 games, which is very small) or you are doing something wrong if this happens frequently. You are saving your extra lands for Brainstorm, right?



peace,
4eak

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Part 1: I'll be grabbing chain lightnings and spell snares soon. Whether I should be burning creatures was somewhat confusing for me with people explaining how they would aim to win on turns 3 or 4.

Part 2: My tournament experience probably isn't the best to look at in regards to the land drops, most games a jitte resolved and I had no answer until game two. However, on top of that, I'm absolutely far from being the best player or probably even a mediocre player. Nor do I have much experience playing blue competitively as I've been playing combo elves almost exclusively for the last 8 or 9 months.

Few things:

1. With regards to Sulfuric Vortex, I would almost never maindeck it, unless your metagame just has a TON of decks running Jitte. Batterskull isn't a reason to run it maindeck at all.


2. I think Fireblast is a phenomenal finisher in a lot of matchups, particularly in games where you need to race. I frequently side them out against control decks, because they are indeed a liability.


3. Price of Progress steals a lot of game 1s. If I know my opponent can play around them, I frequently side them out in games 2 and 3. Knowing your opponent is limiting their mana flexibility because of cards that aren't in your deck feels really good.


4. Agree with 4eak about Lava Spike vs. Chain Lightning. This deck is aggro control. Don't be afraid to aim your burn at your opponent's creatures, particularly when you're clearing blockers for your own creatures. If your opponent is running Mountains, it's typically not that difficult to either wait until he's tapped out to cast Chain Lightning, or cast it when you have multiple untapped Mountains, meaning you can just send it back at them if they choose to send it at you. To be honest, a lot of players seem to forget that Chain Lightning can even be copied in the first place.


5. I've said that this deck typically wins on turn 4, and that's a bit misleading. It goldfishes consistently at turn 4. In real games, your fundamental turn is typically turn 4. In other words, the game state will be clearly in your favor and you only need a few more points to win, or your opponent will be stabilizing, you'll be in topdeck mode, and you've basically lost. You can usually tell by turn 4 who's going to win the game, with not many exceptions, in my experience.

This does not mean that you're doing something wrong if your games go to turn 5. Sometimes you need to slow roll a bit more and play a little more control and a little less aggro.

The thing that appeals to me about Vortex is the inevitability. Against any Maverick or Stoneblade deck, you're going to be at a higher life total, so it's basically GG. Smash to Smithereens can GET Snared, and if you're tapped out you can't Snare them. It seems very strong against Landstill and CB-Top as well. It just relieves alot of pressure to get the job done against Blue. If they're slowing you down with Vortex in hand, it's really not a big deal.


Also... I keep loving this deck. Goblin Guide doesn't have a trigger anymore, so say GO quickly! Hope they draw a land xD

I can see Vortex in the side, I guess. The more combo-oriented the deck, the more I'm willing to accept Vortex (because the more combo-oriented the deck, the more it plays like Burn/Mono Red Sligh, decks where Vortex makes sense). The inevitability issue doesn't really come up often for me though. My creatures usually provide me with that -- I have to play against a removal heavy deck which somehow isn't afraid of burn (perhaps because of lifegain) to really want Vortex. Punishing Fires Maverick is a matchup where Vortex makes sense.

Every card is going to have vulnerabilities. The 3 damage from Smash to Smithereens has been outstanding for me. If you are really worried about counterwalls, I suggest Shattering Spree instead (not instant, but it gets the job done, even through Chalice, 3Sphere, CB, etc.). Honestly, I feel comfortable on the stack with this deck. I tend to put so much pressure on my opponents that they are usually tapping out to survive - getting Smash to Smithereens to resolve has not been a problem for me. Game 2 and 3, they often side out Spell Snares as well, since there are few targets (they will play around PoP).

As to casting your own Spell Snare, I look at this as one of the skill tests for the deck. U(X)r Thresh decks (we don't use the Threshold mechanic, but the deck still maintains the archetypes core tempo-based aggro-control strategy) have always had difficult lines of play, such as those presented by Spell Snare, where skill and experience are necessary and rewarding. Knowing when to tap out to play which function is not always an easy task. Sometimes it is better to hold back and wait to SSnare, and sometimes it is better to tap out even when you know that your opponent very well might play a 2cc spell that you could have countered. Being wrong can easily cost you the game.

Are you sure Goblin Guide is optional now? I'm pretty sure it is still mandatory. Assuming it is, if I understand the changes, your opponent won't get in trouble for missing the mandatory trigger, but you can.


peace,
4eak

I've totally come around to Guide. Being a shock turns 3-On sells him for sure. I was just joshing at how he's better, now thattriggers can be skipped. As far as I understand it, If I say GuideSwing18Go in one big word, and they proceed to draw a card I'm in the clear. They've skipped the trigger, and it could have benefitted me to see their top card. Am I wrong in this?

what trigger are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

what trigger are you talking about?

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Goblin Guide's trigger. It shouldn't be optional since it's not on the list they supplied.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Goblin Guide's trigger. It shouldn't be optional since it's not on the list they supplied.

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It is not skippable as it would be beneficial to your opponent(drawing a card).

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Originally Posted by Beatusnox

It is not skippable as it would be beneficial to your opponent(drawing a card).

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Not always. They could reveal the top card, have it be Ad Nauseam, and all the sudden I know their 75.

There's no guarantee it's good for them, and it could be bad, so they SHOULD be allowed to skip it.