Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
This is Timo's old Manaless-list -1 Elesh Norn, -1 Woodfall Primus, +1 Angel +1 Flayer. Quite innovative. :tongue:
I think it's a very bad idea to lose spped for constance nowadays. Combo wrecks you, Ooze wrecks you, Enlightened Tutor for Wheel wrecks you [at least in Manaless]. It's by no way a good idea to be slow and constant these days. Hell, even UR Delver can pull out 18 damage on turn 3 without doing unfair things, these days.
Nevertheless... I think Wizards killed Manaless with the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, which is so sad, because it was my favorite deck. :cry: I wouldn't run it because you basically lose against anyone who brings it in against you. It's still meta-dependant, but it's impossible in my meta. =(
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MadManMax
I'm pretty confused and can't decide what should I bring to local tourney this Saturday: currently I'm playing LEDless version(new to Dredge and still unable to get the playset of LEDs).
Do you think that Faithless Looting is worth md space in LEDless version or should I got for Tireless Tribe in that place?
The list is: 14 lands, 3 ichs, 4 cabal therapies, 4 breakthroughs, 4 imps, 12 dredgers, 4 studies, bridges, narcos, 2 dr's, one spot for dr target(Flamekin,Iona, Titan- haven't decided yet, may go for Sphinx as well).
Thx in advance
Faithless Looting is not worth it.
As best as I can tell, you run LED Dredge if the hate you're concerned about is Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction: you simply need to overwhelm these cards. They are constrained by mana and time so you just want to win ASAP.
You run LEDless Dredge is you have to fight Crypts and Relics. These cards you want to fight slowly by being careful.
I would not run Faithless Looting in LEDless Dredge because I would rather have Tireless Tribe because it is so incredibly valuable at fighting Crypt.
Your suggested list looks fine except -1 DR target +1 land.
The real question: which is better at fighting Leyline, Cage and Wheel? My instinct is that LEDless is better at fighting these cards because it has more mana and therefore more likely to have a playable hand that can also beat these cards. I am not 100% on that. LEDless is certainly better at being able to Therapy away Leyline if they don't have it in their opening hand, but most of the time Wheel is going to be set up with a topdeck tutor, and I'm not sure about Cage.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
This is Timo's old Manaless-list -1 Elesh Norn, -1 Woodfall Primus, +1 Angel +1 Flayer. Quite innovative. :tongue:
I think it's a very bad idea to lose spped for constance nowadays. Combo wrecks you, Ooze wrecks you, Enlightened Tutor for Wheel wrecks you [at least in Manaless]. It's by no way a good idea to be slow and constant these days. Hell, even UR Delver can pull out 18 damage on turn 3 without doing unfair things, these days.
Nevertheless... I think Wizards killed Manaless with the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, which is so sad, because it was my favorite deck. :cry: I wouldn't run it because you basically lose against anyone who brings it in against you. It's still meta-dependant, but it's impossible in my meta. =(
I've had some nice skirmishes with Ooze due to Phantasmo and Sw :-) So its possible. But I dunno know how reliable it actually is :-(
Cage was equally a reason to undust my LEDs as Looting was at first...but then....I've never seen the Grafdigger ^^
I don't know who this Timo is. I build my List with Youmelia Gay's Manaless (GP Amsterdam) and Ando's Devil List (GP Indy) in mind.
Whats your Meta for it to be impossible?
My Problem is: I like Manaless a lot (like you it seems), even if I play LED Dredge at bigger Events :-/ I've tried to think about a solution....and less perma-hate + Flayer may be a chance...I just won't give up on this Incarnation of Dredge ;)
But you maybe right...maybe its not the time for Manaless now.
Anyways...I am pretty interested in a Dredge Version with Bloodghasts.
In Vintage it's an easy thing to happen due to Bazaar in combination with Serum and Titan.
There has to be a way in Legacy too. :-)
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Faithless Looting is not worth it.
As best as I can tell, you run LED Dredge if the hate you're concerned about is Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction: you simply need to overwhelm these cards. They are constrained by mana and time so you just want to win ASAP.
You run LEDless Dredge is you have to fight Crypts and Relics. These cards you want to fight slowly by being careful.
I would not run Faithless Looting in LEDless Dredge because I would rather have Tireless Tribe because it is so incredibly valuable at fighting Crypt.
I'd disagree with you here, as MadManMax has cleary stated that he has no acces to a playset of LED's, so the question is not which version is better at fighting what kind of hate, but rather which card is better in the last remaining slots of his LEDless deck ( i.e. Tribe or Looting).
In the current meta I'd allways play Looting over Tribe because Relic or Crypt don't see much play anymore thus a permanent discardoutled loses much of its value, compared to a one shot discard outled / drawspell.
Placed 2nd in my local tourney today with LED Dredge:
R1: TES (2-0)
R2: Combo ELves ( 2-1)
R3: Punishing Maverick ( 2-0)
R4: Canadian Thresh ( I.D. / 1-2 due to one of the best Brainstorms I've ever witnessed)
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
The real question: which is better at fighting Leyline, Cage and Wheel? My instinct is that LEDless is better at fighting these cards because it has more mana and therefore more likely to have a playable hand that can also beat these cards. I am not 100% on that. LEDless is certainly better at being able to Therapy away Leyline if they don't have it in their opening hand, but most of the time Wheel is going to be set up with a topdeck tutor, and I'm not sure about Cage.
How is LEDless better at cabal therapy?
Also, LED dredge can win before a player gets a wheel of sun and moon down.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
How is LEDless better at cabal therapy?
Also, LED dredge can win before a player gets a wheel of sun and moon down.
I think that LEDless could possibly be better at hard-casting Cabal Therapy because of the presence of more Gold Lands, but I got confused by the part saying "if they done have it in their opening hand". I think that what was meant by this is "if they don't have Leyline of the Void in their opening hand".
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
Faithless Looting is not worth it.
As best as I can tell, you run LED Dredge if the hate you're concerned about is Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction: you simply need to overwhelm these cards. They are constrained by mana and time so you just want to win ASAP.
You run LEDless Dredge is you have to fight Crypts and Relics. These cards you want to fight slowly by being careful.
I would not run Faithless Looting in LEDless Dredge because I would rather have Tireless Tribe because it is so incredibly valuable at fighting Crypt.
In my experience, I've found that I have been able to successfully play around Crypts and Relics without using Tireless Tribe. I would say that it was a bit more difficult without it, but it was certainly doable. Having said that, I personally don't find it necessary to use Tireless Tribes to combat Crypts and/or Relics, so I find that the choice between Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribe isn't a question of whether or not you want to combat these cards, but rather, a question of which card gives more value to what you're trying to achieve in the deck.
With the primary necessities of the deck being Draw, Discard, and Dredge, I feel that having access to a card that is able to provide two of these three necessities is much more valuable than having a reliable and recurring discard outlet (addressing one of the three necessities) via a 1/1 creature that can have varied uses while in play (DR and Cabal Therapy fodder, blocker, attacker, etc).
You may refer to the following link for reference:
Kindly note that the following cards are in the list of hate cards that are referenced in the link above:
I hope that helps.
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fr_Apo
The list felt really good all day.
I don't know how can you play with no DR main against deck like esperblade. Sure when they can't stop you from going off and lost dice roll you will just crush them but during testing and tournaments I won numerous game where I would have just been dead to batterskull nor jitte, my first esperblade opponent did stack 4 counters on his jitte but could'nt steal g1 where a simple aggro plan would have missed (he goes t1 thoughtseize + fow on my turn1, then wasteland t2...).
Also, DR is really mvp in MU where the opponent can remove your bridges pretty easily.
I definitely got to do more testing with your quadlaser to figure out good it is but I felt like you are trying to maximise the chance you have to get a perfect hand via chosing to lose to any complicate situation you can face.
What does your metagame look like?
In France, most people are running stoneblade(esper or not) / maverick and rug, and being sure to be faster than a turn two ooze on the draw seems really key to me while getting answers to fast batterskull snapped into play, rug MU in g1 seems not to change drastically no matter which list you run.
I wish you good luck on top8ing the BoM, hopping you won't be the only dredge deck getting in : )
Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.
This is my exact same experience with the deck. Some games I would NEVER have won if I didn't play Dread Return.
This game vs Enchantress for instance. I get a sloppy start after mull to 5, but am still able to Terastadon their (Enchanted)lands and Moat.
I will agree though that often it is winmore, but there really are a ton of situations you are happy you can dig up an answer to whatever your opponent is trying to take the game with.
I know you should be faster to begin with, but "should be" is nothing to lean on.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
Should this one thread discuss LED, LED-less AND special variants all at once? Wouldn't it be better if we seperate the Dredge thread in LED & LEDless? :eyebrow:
I believe that these variants of Dredge are all essentially the same deck, but vary in the "packages" that are being used. Kindly refer to the following link for a short discussion on "packages":
As a side note, Manaless Dredge is a variant that is distinctly different because it does not run one of the basic necessities (Land, Draw, Discard, Dredge) of the other dredge variants. I believe, though, that it's still under the "Dredge Family", but requires a separate thread for discussion because of the distinct difference in how it is played.
Cheers,
jares
p.s. Would it be beneficial for us to have a section for "Packages" in the primer? This might save us some time in going through this again in the future.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Manaless just isn't very good right now. It's just too taxing to pass the turn DDD'ing, forcing you game two to basically start the game off Time Walking your opponent and giving them a free mulligan basically if they choose so.
The deck can't fight hate and is cold to fast Combo. It's just not good right now.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
Manaless just isn't very good right now. It's just too taxing to pass the turn DDD'ing, forcing you game two to basically start the game off Time Walking your opponent and giving them a free mulligan basically if they choose so.
The deck can't fight hate and is cold to fast Combo. It's just not good right now.
I think that the only meta where Manaless Dredge will be able to compete in is a control-heavy meta. Otherwise, its drawbacks become too exposed. I'm happy that Mental Misstep got printed, though, because this variant wouldn't otherwise have been discovered.
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
Sweet looking list. I'm going to have to goldfish some hands!
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
I don't know who this Timo is. I build my List with Youmelia Gay's Manaless (GP Amsterdam) and Ando's Devil List (GP Indy) in mind.
Whats your Meta for it to be impossible?
Timo is the german refernce for dredge. If you want to know anything about the deck, ask him. =P
My Meta is much gravehate. :tongue: Additionally I hate it to be cold against combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
Faithless Looting is not worth it.
How can you say this? Like... seriously... Careful Study was THE swiss army-knife in Dredge. I was a nay-sayer for a long time, but CS is what the deck wants. It's carddraw & discardoutlet in one card. If you use it as a discardoutlet it also helps you to find more draw. Study also helps you to recover after a Crypt. Now we have 8!!! Studies and you say it isn't worth it? Sry man, but I highly disagree with you here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TraxDaMax
This is my exact same experience with the deck. Some games I would NEVER have won if I didn't play Dread Return.
The real question here is: How many games do you win because you play DR? The amount of games you win with DR & targets, discounting these where you would win anyways without it, has to be higher than the amount of games you would win for having the extra card in your hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NewDredgePlayer
Sweet looking list. I'm going to have to goldfish some hands!
It's the latest Quadlazerlist & Board afaik.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
Careful Study was THE swiss army-knife in Dredge. I was a nay-sayer for a long time, but CS is what the deck wants. It's carddraw & discardoutlet in one card. If you use it as a discardoutlet it also helps you to find more draw.
I keep on forgetting to mention this whenever applicable, but I do like that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1, with the intention to use it as a discard outlet, essentially puts you in a situation where you had a 9-card opening hand!
I get confused whenever people say that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1 is not a good play, when in my experience, it has always been very rewarding: draw two extra cards, discard 2 cards that I want in the graveyard, all for one mana. In comparison, while Tireless Tribe is able to provide unlimited discard capability on Turn-1, having a 1/1 Creature seems less desirable when compared to having 2 extra cards that can potentially be extra enablers.
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jares
having 2 extra cards that can potentially be extra enablers.
this!
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TraxDaMax
This is my exact same experience with the deck. Some games I would NEVER have won if I didn't play Dread Return.
This game vs Enchantress for instance. I get a sloppy start after mull to 5, but am still able to Terastadon their (Enchanted)lands and Moat.
I will agree though that often it is winmore, but there really are a ton of situations you are happy you can dig up an answer to whatever your opponent is trying to take the game with.
I know you should be faster to begin with, but "should be" is nothing to lean on.
You also have to ask yourself how many games you lose because of DR. It is a very underwhelming feeling to lose because that DR you dredged wasn't an Ichorid.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HokusSchmokus
You also have to ask yourself how many games you lose because of DR. It is a very underwhelming feeling to lose because that DR you dredged wasn't an Ichorid.
... or if the DR that you drew in your opening hand was an enabler instead. :tongue:
Generally speaking, are there more games that can only be won using Dread Return when compared to the games that can be won without it? I expect the answer to this to be 'No'. I believe that, because of this, Dread Return does not fit the qualification of being a "core" card. This is not to say that it's not a good card, because it has proven time and again that it truly is very powerful.
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
I still like dread return. It is a minimal investment of cards for a powerful payoff. It also adds diversity to the deck.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Dread Return is staying in my build. Im also looking at Flayer over Sun Titan at this point, too.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
Dread Return is staying in my build. Im also looking at Flayer over Sun Titan at this point, too.
This.
Although it seems that we have to run a 4-card package of 3 DR + Flayer for a higher probability of dredging the two of them needed into the yard.
Ando said so as well in his report:
Quote:
Originally by Ando Ferguson
To make maximal use of the Flayer of the Hatebound, you must have two Dread Returns in the graveyard. Running only two Dread Returns decreases your chances of finding the second in a timely manner.
I goldfished a variation of his list (4 Careful Study, 2 DR) quite a bit during the last week and it occured more often than not that I only found one of the DRs after going through about half the deck and therefore switched back to 3 DR.
