[Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant

Hi anyone tried alternate wincon as enchantmens?

I think the best's are:

- Puca's Mischief + Illusions of Grandeur (Very good)
- Helix pinnacle (take a lot of time, 2 or 3 turns)
- Luminarch Ascension
- Sacred Mesa
- Sigil of the Empty Throne (Very good)


My current test list is:

// Lands

7 Forest
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum

// Creatures

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells

4 Spreading Seas
4 Energy Field
4 Sea's Claim
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Elephant Grass
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Puca's Mischief
1 Illusions of Grandeur
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Choke

Hi all,

I have some suggestions:

- Stony Silence in side ?
- Cursed Totem in side for Elf/Maverick ?
- Crop Rotation ? To
-- Get more faster Orchad,sanctuary or Karakas
-- Double Orchad or sanctuary effect (tap it, then crop on it, the go get another (or the same if there is Wheel of sun and moon), then tap it again)
- Iona + Emrakul instead of 2 Emrakul ?

Dihensoeur & novatinhu, thank you for your input. I have been spending a fair amount of my time revisiting and discussing in the Established Solitare (Enchantress) thread here.

I have been doing so to see if there is a good enough reason to be so very different from the traditional lists. ...and at this point I'd have to say I'm unsure.

This list does a two main things better than traditional enchantress:

* It accelerates much faster [It is almost as if this list exponentially produces mana]
* It can win without landing an enchantress [This has been useful on a fair amount of occasions]

This is offset however by it doing the following:

*More deck slots are dedicated to the kill
*The deck does accidentally kill the pilot from time to time.
*the deck does have some synergy issues [Island enchants with annihilator and E. Field]

So in short. When it works it's very fun and fast, when it doesn't it not so much.

So maybe there is something to learn from Standard Enchantress's consistency, and look to make a hybrid list.

While on a flight today I jotted the very rough 61 card list down:

Mana (18)
11 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Savannah

Instants (4)
Fixers
4 Manamorphose

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Sorceries (2)
2 Green Sun's Zenith - More shuffles for the guiles

Enchantments (33)

acceleration
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sea's Claim
3 Enchantress's Presence


The Stall
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Energy Field
4 Elephant Grass
2 Back to Basics - We don't have to work nearly as hard against Maverick anymore.

Fixers
3 Mirri's Guile

The Wins (2)
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne -& draw out

I proxied it up on Cockatrice and it still plays the same. It explodes very fast. It does have trouble winning after a quick lock out (searching for the win con) I love how the deck revolves around Back to Basics and basic lands. It gives the deck a much stronger footing (less of a glass cannon) and still hoses a lot of decks with greater ease.

The list certainly needs some tweaking, but there is a ton of potential here.

FYI - It should be noted that island enchants do not change lands supter type (basic or non-basic.) So if you were to enchant Karakas with Sea's Claim for example Back to Basics would still tap it down.

You could replace Mirri's Guile with Sensei's Divining Top and run a singleton Words of Wind as a backup win condition. Those would have good synergy with Energy Field.

@Freggle : I would like your opinion on my suggestions.

Energy Field can be played without Wheel of sun and moon.
Because :
- Enchantress doesn't play many non-basic land.
- Only creatures with shroud.
- Play enchantment and so few instant/sorcery spells.
- Energy Field is to gain time and not to be invincible (Energy Field can't make us invincible even with Wheel).

And so you get slots from Wheel.

Puca's Mischief can be played without Illusions of Grandeur and can "kill" (get creatures/planeswalker/... from opponent).

Energy Field without Wheel is susceptible to Wasteland (because we DO have nonbasics), discard, counter, and us overdrawing (likely to happen and likely to be significant with 1-2 kill conditions and no tutoring). One of these things is likely to happen against most decks. Burn may be the only exception...

You would need Time Warps to make Puca's Mischief actually work unless you could give the creature Shroud. They will just take it right back. It also doesn't play nice with Sterling Grove (requires targeting).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waSP

You would need Time Warps to make Puca's Mischief actually work unless you could give the creature Shroud. They will just take it right back. It also doesn't play nice with Sterling Grove (requires targeting).

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Puca's Mischief does not switch controllers, and only works for it's controller. on top of that it is a 'may' ability. It works as the original poster intends.

So I took the weekend to test all sorts of enchantress variants. I ran the gambit from straight-up traditional, to traditional variants, and variants of this list.

Over the weekend I had experimented with the following kills:

Words of Wind
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sigil of the Empty Throne
White Sun's Zenith

Very strangely hard casting Emrakul in this build seems to be the easiest and the best.

Sigil required too much action post sigil and didn't offer the extra turn to "just win"

Words of Wind required too much set-up and not enough win, and does not work well with Island enchantments.

White Sun's was the second runner up, but just seemed inferior in the slot.

As mentioned above the original version of the deck was difficult to pilot and lost games due to the damage that was inflicted upon one self. Since this was tied to the mana base & win condition booth had to be altered.

This list below is explosive, and goes off faster than the original version, and can ramp out Emrakul somewhere after turn 5.

Please bear in mind this is not a fully tuned list, but is a basis for discussion.


Maindeck:

Creatures (9)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Cloud of Faeries - A somewhat risky play unless on the go off turn or have WoSaM in play
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Artifact (1)
1 Pithing Needle - This should be upped.

Enchantments (31)

The Lock
2 Choke

The Stall
4 Elephant Grass
4 Energy Field
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The Ramp
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Utopia Sprawl

Disruption / Ramp
2 Spreading Seas
4 Sea's claim

Draw
4 Enchantress's Presence

Mana (19)
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Misty Rainforest
10 Forest
2 Island
1 Karakas

Things to note:

-This list does require an enchantress effect to win.
-Cloud of Faeries is an excellent ramp card untapping Serra's Sanctum or a Utopia Sprawled forest... or both.
-Pithing Needle - Although not an enchantment it cheaply deals with Sneak Attack, Deed, EE, Jace....
-I will try seeing if Daze is good in the board or main.
-I can see Gitaxian Probe or Surgical Extraction being good to name Needle targets

That's where I'm at. I'll keep you posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freggle

-I can see Gitaxian Probe or Surgical Extraction being good to name Needle targets

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I don't understand what needle would do to those.

neither I can see what Gitaxian Probe and Surgical Extraction have in common...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rufus

I don't understand what needle would do to those.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

neither I can see what Gitaxian Probe and Surgical Extraction have in common...

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My apologies. I typed in short last night to write the adjustments in the time I had, something I try to not do.

I feel there is a loose synergy between Surgical Extraction or Gitaxian Probe & Pithing Needle in that probe or extraction will allow you to gather more game information to name the proper card.

Typically if enchantress faces down an Engineered Explosives (EE) or Pernicious Deed (deed) good players will drop it and pop it on the same turn not giving the enchantress player the time to react.

Gitaxian Probe (see their hand) and more so Surgical Extraction (See their hand & library) will allow the pilot to gather the game information to correctly name the correct card proactively, and cheaply to keep the engine rolling.

Also, as discussed in the Solitaire thread Surgical Extraction also has the added benefit that it can be an excellent weapon in fighting many fast combo decks that Enchantress typically has problems with. ex. Reanimator, Past in Flames, Dredge, High Tide, anything Intuition based...

Please let me know if any more explanations are needed.

It should also be noted that Pithing Needle if nothing else can further cut opponents off their mana by naming any fetch, and help protect our lands by naming Wasteland

Suggests:

- 2 Cloud of Faeries
+ 2 Crop Rotation

Have you already try Entreat the Angels ? It's better than White Sun's Zenith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dihensoeur

Suggests:

- 2 Cloud of Faeries
+ 2 Crop Rotation

Have you already try Entreat the Angels ? It's better than White Sun's Zenith.

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I did think of Entreat the Angels however it is (in this build) inferior to Decree of Justice because you will never miracle it given how much we should be drawing, and Decree gives an instant speed out if needed. The single extra mana is marginal when considering all angles.

I like White Sun's Zenith the most because it auto shuffled in (no WoSaM needed), and was also instant speed for surprises. The problem was it would loose to a lot more situations. One of which I keep in mind is the enchantress mirror. WSZ would just suck, where as Emrakul would tear it up. There are plenty of other scenarios to paint, but you get the point.

The other thing was there is a HUGE difference between sinking 15 mana (or there abouts) into a WSZ vs. an Emrakul because WSZ could be countered, and rendered useless. I guess that would be an area where decree's cycling would shine.

The right call when ramping this kind of mana is no doubt Emrakul hands down.

For the record I also tried and abandoned other fringe ideas. My personal favorite was:

Intruder Alarm + Forbidden Orchard + Wind Zendikon for infinite mana to fuel a Helix Pinnacle.

This however ate up too many slots, and didn't really improve any of the decks weaknesses. I guess I'm just typing this out for completeness.

Lastly, I'm open to reducing the Cloud of Faeries but I have to ask have you tried the list? Honestly, in here they are pretty broken on some turns they can net you positive 7-15 mana. Other times you just cycle them to keep the deck rolling. They are good at what they are in here to do.

I do think that the list may want a Crop Rotation for deck flexibility reasons, but it's not needed for the engine. ...so then it becomes a question for what purpose?

Since this list leans heavy on an enchantress effect I might be more inclined to try a Enlightened Tutor (to get presence) more though.

I find myself wondering about Puca's Mischief+Embargo as a way to finish. Clearly Embargo can help keep you alive, and you don't have any problems trading away control of the auras. Though neither of those really help vs. combo.

You right about Decree of Justice (I have forgotten this card).

I didn't tried the list.

For Crop Rotation :
- Get more faster Orchad,sanctuary or Karakas.
- Double Orchad or sanctuary effect (tap it, then crop on it, then go get another (or the same if there is Wheel of sun and moon), then tap it again).
- Cost only one green mana.

If you're leaning on Enchantresses it would make sense to run additional Argothians in the form of GSZ rather than lose an early draw to Enlightened Tutor. It also eases the White requirement of the deck. ET should be thought of more as a way to get your lock set up (or your kill if you're going that route) rather than part of the Enchantress engine. GSZ also interacts better with Energy Field than ET.

Ditto Cloud of Faeries vs. Crop Rotation. Cloud of Faeries is an excellent wall more often than you'd expect.

What is the fundamental turn of this build? Without Confinement/Grove, you're a lot more susceptible to disruption. And with no Replenish, you don't have any out of nowhere comeback ability. The best you can hope for is to disrupt their manabase, really or win 'fair' games with Energy Field/Elephant Grass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waSP

If you're leaning on Enchantresses it would make sense to run additional Argothians in the form of GSZ rather than lose an early draw to Enlightened Tutor. It also eases the White requirement of the deck. ET should be thought of more as a way to get your lock set up (or your kill if you're going that route) rather than part of the Enchantress engine. GSZ also interacts better with Energy Field than ET.

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I see your point, and tend to agree. I might experiment with GSZ more if control does pose a problem in testing, but in actuality the 1st GSZ should be the 3rd Choke since they would be in the deck for the same reasons (counter magic), and Choke handles that and then some all in one card.

After reading most of the enchantress thread on MTG Salvation I may try (1) Worldly Tutor This still nets us an Argothian t2, but can also fish up a Cloud of Faeries or Emrakul.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waSP

Ditto Cloud of Faeries vs. Crop Rotation. Cloud of Faeries is an excellent wall more often than you'd expect.

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Agreed, Cloud of Faeries also puts this decks turns from absurd to WTF just happened. Untapping a Serra's Sanctum & a Utopia Sprawled forest after dumping a bunch of Carpet of Flowers and subsequently more island enchants off of carpet mana is just insane. Hard casting Emrakuls out of nowhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waSP

What is the fundamental turn of this build? Without Confinement/Grove, you're a lot more susceptible to disruption. And with no Replenish, you don't have any out of nowhere comeback ability. The best you can hope for is to disrupt their manabase, really or win 'fair' games with Energy Field/Elephant Grass.

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It's somewhere between turns 4-6. By that point you should have out multiple WoSaM's and Energy Fields or Grasses, plus mana enchants and island enchants an be hard casting Emrakul, and possibly bouncing him for infinite turns. Even through counter magic. ...but if they hit all the enchantress effects that obviously slows us down.

Instead of grove we run cheap mana accelerents in Carpet of Flowers that produce more than the cost usually in the same turn you play it. It's like a Black Lotus every turn. That is what makes this build so much more explosive.

This allows us to zurg the board with our cheap hate enchantments: grass, E. Field, WoSaM, Counterbalance (currently testing again to improve combo MU)...

So decks can not go one for one with the enchantment production. They will be unable to keep pace by a long shot. The only thing we have to fear is mass removal. In most cases that is an activated ability. EE, and Deed. I fear EE far more than deed because we can usually keep Deed players off of B & G mana, but an EE for 1 would hurt. That is why I would up the Pithing Needles and possibly consider a few Stony Silences in the board.

I would argue that this deck has all the come back ability that Replenish would offer. Not as flashy but could easily come back. If an enchantress effect lasts a board wipe our recovery would be within 2-3 turns of Emrakul mana, and still be pumping out the stalls in between. Very little goes to the grave as a result of WoSaM, so it's all in the deck to just be recast as we do the pre combat / post combat main phase tricks with Carpet of Flowers

I'm also looking into Dovescape as a wincon / piece of disruption to improve combo out of the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freggle

I'm also looking into Dovescape as a wincon / piece of disruption to improve combo out of the board.

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I don't like Dovescape as a kill because:
- VS blue, It can played FoW for free + Daze => 7 tokens for free.
- VS Equipment (sword, batterskull) you will never win (lifelink on batterskull).
- Opponent can still put creature like StoneForge to get Equip, Snapcaster to make more token, Tarmo, ...

What do you think about:
+ Sneak Attack x4
+ Emrakul x2

With the explosive mana from Carpet of flowers and enchantress drawing, that can be interesting no ?

Cloud of Faeries can blocked (can kill Vendilion clique, Snapcaster and Dark confidant).
Crop Rotation can get Serra's sanctum or other and cost 1 less.

Hi Freggle,

Have you tried the new Avacyn Restored enchantment to fix upur manabase and the lack of blue mana : Abundant growth

It'll make you draw a card and you'll have :u: instead of :g: when needed.

What do you think of it ?

Now we have the combo Rest in peace + Helm of Obedience = kill turn 3 (I did it many times).
What do you think about it ?