Food Chain Combo

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Originally Posted by metamet

Is there any neat interaction with evoke and Food Chain?

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Yes specifically:

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Playing a creature by paying its evoke cost will result in two comes-into-play abilities: The sacrifice ability from evoke, and whatever other ability the creature has. The creature's controller chooses in what order to put them on the stack. Both abilities can be responded to as normal.

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In fact, I've added a splash of black in my previous builds of food chain combo to add in Shriekmaw. It sometimes forces you to sac your own guy to food chain based off of the CitP ability, but much more frequently helps me a great deal.

I usually also run 1 target for Fierce Empath in case I already have Emrakul (Krosan Tusker is the best I've come up with, but would like something better than that).

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Is there any other use for Manipulate Fate other than to tutor for Griffins? Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything else...

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Originally Posted by metamet

It can also pull out excess Manipulate Fates or any other dead draws later in the game, which isn't terrible since it cantrips.

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I've removed anywhere between 1-3 Griffins with Manipulate Fate; usually 2. This deck does not want Misthollow Griffin to enter the graveyard from a counterspell. When playing against a deck with no counterspells, e.g., MUD, Goblins, ANT, TES, you can usually get away with only taking one Griffin and a couple of dead cards, but against other, decks, you may have to fight over resolving a Griffin. Also, you only need one Griffin to go off, so any extra ones are practically dead cards to begin with, so I'd never be too troubled about removing more than I think I'd need.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I usually also run 1 target for Fierce Empath in case I already have Emrakul (Krosan Tusker is the best I've come up with, but would like something better than that).

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There's always AEthersnipe. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Yes specifically: In fact, I've added a splash of black in my previous builds of food chain combo to add in Shriekmaw. It sometimes forces you to sac your own guy to food chain based off of the CitP ability, but much more frequently helps me a great deal.

I usually also run 1 target for Fierce Empath in case I already have Emrakul (Krosan Tusker is the best I've come up with, but would like something better than that).

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There's more than that: there's Cloudthresher, Conquering Manticore, Duplicant (which, I might add, keeps its CMC), Morselhoarder, Spitebellows, and Faultgrinder, just to name a few utility cards.

ETA: Manticore even boosts your Food Chain comedy by stealing a creature.

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

There's more than that: there's Cloudthresher, Conquering Manticore, Duplicant (which, I might add, keeps its CMC), Morselhoarder, Spitebellows, and Faultgrinder, just to name a few utility cards.

ETA: Manticore even boosts your Food Chain comedy by stealing a creature.

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Wow. I really want to play Duplicant now. :)

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Originally Posted by Skogre

I've removed anywhere between 1-3 Griffins with Manipulate Fate; usually 2. This deck does not want Misthollow Griffin to enter the graveyard from a counterspell. When playing against a deck with no counterspells, e.g., MUD, Goblins, ANT, TES, you can usually get away with only taking one Griffin and a couple of dead cards, but against other, decks, you may have to fight over resolving a Griffin. Also, you only need one Griffin to go off, so any extra ones are practically dead cards to begin with, so I'd never be too troubled about removing more than I think I'd need.

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Removing 3 Griffins also gives you the alt win con of just swinging in with Griffins, which has won me a fair share of games.

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Originally Posted by Skogre

There's always AEthersnipe. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

There's more than that: there's Cloudthresher, Conquering Manticore, Duplicant (which, I might add, keeps its CMC), Morselhoarder, Spitebellows, and Faultgrinder, just to name a few utility cards.

ETA: Manticore even boosts your Food Chain comedy by stealing a creature.

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Sorry, I meant I haven't found any good ones that you should grab when you don't have Emrakul and you also don't have Food Chain. Without food chain my problem was the deck just turns into awkward bad aggro, which wins some games, but I liked Tusker because he'd at least give you some draw, a land, and hopefully a better chance of getting Food Chain back.

I should start testing the deck again though. I tried it last when emrakul was released and kept getting killed by well timed Krosan Grips (remember those days?!?). Now the deck has more going for it, with misthollow and just the lack of Enchantment hate in general.

If you add black, you can tutor for rune-scarred demon to get food chain. Lots of mana though. The build I posted last has been testing very well. Primeval titan could be another target if you just want value and deck thinning.

The playset of spell pierces in the side has been worth the loss of living wish. Manipulate fate has remained strong as griffins 5 and 6 and a big source of card advantage. Feels alot like squadron hawk on steroids in this deck. Good find!

Decided that Coiling Oracle isn't worth a slot. At best, it's a rampant growth, at worst it cantrips and sits around with a useless 1/1 body. I'd either play Wall of Roots of Wall of Blossoms in its place, as it gives us a bit more consistency and a body that can actually do something.

I still prefer Roots, as it allows the following play:

T1 land, Hierarch
T2 land, Food chain --> sack hierarch, play Roots --> sack Roots, play Griffin

Although not really all that impressive (and rarely applicable), it does allow for instances like that to happen.

I've been really pleased with Drift of Phantasms. 2 of right now. Considering going up... but likely not. :)

I went back to 3 Manipulate Fates. I want them every single game, and two just wasn't consistent enough. Drawing doubles of it, although not great, isn't as bad as you'd assume, seeing that they pull our the other Man Fates and cantrip.

Seriously. Shouldn't be overlooked, as it's essentially a draw-four for two.

Playing U/G is nice, as it makes the land incredibly consistent. Haven't considered splashing yet, but I'm hesitant to since the deck seems to do everything it needs so far.

Griffining into a hardcasted Aethersnape isn't too bad of a tempo beat path as well, especially if you don't have a way to play Em at the time. :)

Still fun and enjoyable to play. I have been rocking 4 Tarmogoyf in the side to help with aggro matchups, particularly RUG Delver. Been happy with them, especially since you can transform into a mediocre aggro deck after your opponent sides out their Snares and brings in enchantment removal. :)

Played this last night at a local Legacy event again. Moneyed, losing only to Maverick and Ethersworn Cannonist. (Note: Transmuting is okay around Cannonist)

Got there one game with three Griffins and Food Chain fogging until I got Fierce Empath. Used Drift of Phantasms to block and buy enough time another game. And don't forget Wall of Roots has haste mana.


3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots
3 Drift of Phantasms
2 Fierce Empath
2 Emrakul
1 Aethersnipe

4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Show and Tell
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb

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Originally Posted by metamet

Played this last night at a local Legacy event again. Moneyed, losing only to Maverick and Ethersworn Cannonist. (Note: Transmuting is okay around Cannonist)

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Maybe a one of AEther Adept main deck or two side-board and bringing one in post-sideboard (assuming you'd be playing Living Wish, as well) would be a good idea versus decks with Ethersworn Canonist.

Aside from not being a creature (and therefore not fodder for Food Chain or a legal target for some spells, like Living Wish), Wipe Away seems like the superior option, as it can still be found by Transmuting a Drift of Phantasms.

Also, as nice as Manipulate Fate is, it's still not clear whether it's actually better than just running Intuition.

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Originally Posted by Skogre

Maybe a one of AEther Adept main deck or two side-board and bringing one in post-sideboard (assuming you'd be playing Living Wish, as well) would be a good idea versus decks with Ethersworn Canonist.

Aside from not being a creature (and therefore not fodder for Food Chain or a legal target for some spells, like Living Wish), Wipe Away seems like the superior option, as it can still be found by Transmuting a Drift of Phantasms.

Also, as nice as Manipulate Fate is, it's still not clear whether it's actually better than just running Intuition.

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Stern Proctor

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Originally Posted by metamet

Played this last night at a local Legacy event again. Moneyed...

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I really like your list. It looks like it's coming together well. Congratulations.

@skogre: The biggest advantage of manipulate fate over intuition is that it is a four for one for two mana. Intuition is a one for one for three mana, albeit at instant speed. Intuition is a tutor that really shines in decks where you want things in the grave. We do not want griffins in the grave. If there was a sorcery for 1U that read draw four cards, then every deck that could make blue mana would run it. In this deck, the first manipulate fate you cast basically reads draw four cards (with upside because it is getting a combo piece). It is almost never countered because the text on the card is pretty innoccuous and most people think you are just thinning your deck and cycling. The downside of manipulate fate is that it has diminishing returns and works best as a two of.

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Originally Posted by cb4

@skogre: The biggest advantage of manipulate fate over intuition is that it is a four for one for two mana. Intuition is a one for one for three mana, albeit at instant speed. Intuition is a tutor that really shines in decks where you want things in the grave. We do not want griffins in the grave. If there was a sorcery for 1U that read draw four cards, then every deck that could make blue mana would run it. In this deck, the first manipulate fate you cast basically reads draw four cards (with upside because it is getting a combo piece). It is almost never countered because the text on the card is pretty innoccuous and most people think you are just thinning your deck and cycling. The downside of manipulate fate is that it has diminishing returns and works best as a two of.

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My biggest issue with Manipulate Fate is that it's very narrow. It gets Misthollow Griffin and thins the deck of dead cards. Intuition, however, can get a Misthollow Griffin; a Food Chain; an Emrakul, Maga, and Fierce Empath, or some other similar win-condition combination; or even Force of Will.

It's hard to weigh which this deck really wants more; a cheaper narrower tutor at Sorcery speed or a more expensive, wider tutor at instant speed.

Could Ancestral Knowledge be a usable card for filtering purposes? I'm thinking about the combined Exile-selection and rearrange clause. The CU on it is a pain, though.

The point of maniplate fate is that it isn't just a tutor. It is big time card advantage. I have found that 6 copies of food chain (2 drifts) and misthollow (2 manipulates) have been the right amount to get those regularly with the 6 draw spells.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

I really like your list. It looks like it's coming together well. Congratulations.

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Thank you! It's been a really fun pet deck. I got pretty tired of those top tiered decks that are either linear to pilot or plagued with endless mirror matches, and this one has found a happy line of being competitive, unexpected and fun. I'm sure I'll be tweaking it for a while, but the main deck is getting ever closer to feeling where it ought.

Regarding Intuition, although it's one of my favorite cards ever (Intiution for Raven's Crime, Worm Harvest and Loam being my favorite play), it doesn't fit well in this deck. Not only does is cost 3 over MF's 2, it also doesn't net you any card advantage. Unless your deck plays with the graveyard or runs a bunch of four-ofs you just sometimes need (see: Sneak & Show), it's not a great tutor. A bit too slow to curve and doesn't interact favorably with Griffin's.

While MF is narrow, we're playing a Griffin deck... which is why can get away with a narrow card. :) Rarely is it dead, and usually it sets us up for some bonkers while cantripping. Can't beat that.

@cb4

I have been running 7 Food Chains and 6 Griffins (4 Chain/3 Drifts, 3 Griffins/3 Fates) and I have been pretty happy with it. The 3 drifts are good if you have a handful of three drops you want to snag, such as Fierce Empath, Show and Tell or Food Chain. Sometimes I worry three is too much, but I have found that it's never bad to have the ability to get another Empath or Food Chain if things don't go as planned.

I'll play with the numbers more, as it seems you're happy with just the two Drifts. Are you running maindeck Show and Tells?

I am not running any show and tells. My current list is on the previous page. Our manabases are identical. How have you been liking ancient tombs? Some games I love them and others, I hate them. I have been wanting to test alchemist's refuge, but haven't yet.

Hmm. I really like Ancient Tomb. It can provide for some busted turn twos, which is nice. I don't think the flash land would help my build much, as it doesn't help a ton to go off on their turn over mine, plus it requires two additional mana.

How do you like Maga? I've found that Emrakul always seals the deal.

And what's your alt win condition if your Food Chains don't land? Have you gotten in for the beat down?