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Thats why its so mich fun knowing a million Legacy decks and how metagame. In my match vs GerryT he never cast a counter, only Hymn and Thoughtseize and Ghastly Demise. I missboarded by bringing in Cabal Therapy that was next to dead. In hindsight i should have brought in Scavenging Ooze to counter his Deathrite and get bigger than 2/2 vs Shardless Agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Makes me wonder if him and Anderson cut FoW from their 75?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I saw one video of one of his plays, he does use FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
How do you guys feel about merging this thread with the BUG-control thread.
I never liked the split, since they are basically decks with the same gamplan and a majority of cards similar with Shardless beeing a possible engine. Now there are decks showing a mixture and also TCdecks is counting shardless as BUG control. Also both decks can profit from each others discussion and the activity is way beyond not beeing able to handle in one thread.
If noone has an objection I would ask the mods to merge the threads; I can add the primer to the front page (have to update the primer anyway covering the latest developments and the different routes BUG control can take).
I'm not opposed to thread/deck strategy merge by any means, though I'm not sure the BUG Midrange peeps will agree.
I really think the singleton ponder needs to be replaced by Sylvan Library.
Anyone try out Natural Order in here? It allows you to just go "I win" vs some people. And that is quite a clock. Ive been testing a Shardless BUG deck to some success with NO.
Can't say that It'll work on this deck, the only things you'll catch are goyf and deathrite shaman(paying 4 mana for that doesn't worth it). Also mana cost of this card is too high for this deck, considering its benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Or splash a dryad arbor.Quote:
Originally Posted by EviLDemon
I mean Natural Order + Progenitus...Quote:
Originally Posted by EviLDemon
For example here is the list I have been testing: (its very rough I threw in a few things at the end of the building process just so I could test it)
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Wall of Blossoms
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
I used to love NO RUG back in the days as a powerful aggro/control deck with an awesome 4 mana creature, but with Canadian (+Team America) & Terminus (+Supreme Verdict) around, I don't want to know what kind of green monster has to be printed to make Natural Order viable again. NO also competes with the blue unfair brother Show&Tell. If heavy disruption delver decks are on the decline and something green with a very powerful come into play effect is printed this strategy could be revived I guess.
Also - shardless is the wrong shell: It is clunky enough and trying to do unfair stuff with cascade. The right shell for this deck surely run's more mana acceleration (GSZ) + Vendiliion Clique - like NO RUG used to.
My thoughts were (other than the fact that NO is a sweet card) it is a card disadvantage spell and if in this shell you can still win without needing to go off with NO. It gets to play deathrite which is a mana dorm that can sacrifice to NO and then you get just the basic Shardless out card advantage your opponent win con. Im going to continue testing it. I do see what you are saying though.
I'd rather simply play 4 jace, the mind sculptor before touching natural order. At least when jace is countered it isn't a 2 for 1. And when jace resolves, you should generally win anyways.
I'm currently tinkering with this archetype and run the following maindeck, the SB I currently have is just a random assortment of good cards.
Lands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (probably getting cut for a fetchland)
1 Mishra's Factory (Should probably be the 2nd creeping tar pit, although the 1 mana activation is relevant sometimes as I tap out a lot with my list.)
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold (Probably another fetchland to strengthen deathrite shaman not to mention volrath's stronghold is terrible against opposing deathrites. It's occasionally really powerful in conjunction with getting back baleful strix or shardless agent for value though and getting around jace fatesealing.)
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Misty rainforest
Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
Discard
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (Should be thoughtseize and the 4th hymn probably, lots of 4 and 5 drops that you want to discard and abrupt decay handles the rest with ease.)
3 Hymn to Tourach
Countermagic
3 Force of Will
Good Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Random SB of good cards:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Force of Will
1 Damnation
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach
Looking to have no dead cards to cascade into. Cascading into hymn is usually what I want to hit if I don't hit ancestral visions. I run the full playset of jace because jace is typically the win con unless I deathrite them out and the card is actually just game when it resolves usually. Really good in the control mirror as well, which is a grindfest.
Other possible additions include vendilion clique, engineered explosives potentially, snapcaster mage, and like I said the inquisitions should probably be thoughtseize especially considering abrupt decay answers everything inquisition does usually while inquisition doesn't answer opposing jace's, batterskull in hand, force if I really need to grab theirs, etc. etc. Might want to strengthen the manabase as well potentially with basics and/or more fetchable lands.
The damnation maindeck is a concession to the goblins matchup.
But I like this archetype a lot overall, it has a lot of power behind it. Cascade is incredibly powerful.
The playset of jace also locks up the game when you set up agent into visions as the opponent is then buried in card advantage typically. I also like the interaction with brainstorm and being able to act as a pseudo shuffle via putting your cascade target below a land and cascading into it then putting the land or some dead card on the bottom. The above list is simply trying to play an attrition based game of magic by 2 for 1'ing the opponent as much as possible via strix, agent, hymn, jace, damnation, and deathrite's virtual card advantage in terms of shutting down loam or other graveyard based cards.
After a break from this deck I have revisited it. It's nuts with Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Ancestral Vision, and Baleful Strix.
It rips RUG to shreds (mostly because of the Abrupt Decay), but now RUG has so many more things it HAS TO ANSWER to come out on top. I'm running a 2-of of Pernicious Deed and find it's very necessary and can be drawn into really easily with Ancestral Visions. I have to say, Ancestral Vision is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.
I've seen a few versions of BUG Cascade now and in my opinion, Tarmogoyf is a complete necessity too. He's constantly 6/7 and angry.
Here's what I'm running now, and I've been amazed by how fun and effective it is:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Polluted Delta
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
3 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Is Deed really necessary MD? You've already got Abrupt Decay + Goyf as a huge blocker + Baleful Strix as a deathtouch dude. I think you could play 2 Clique instead and moves the Deeds to the SB. Without any Forces, your G1 vs unfair decks looks reliant on Hymns, although I suppose you can side in half your SB post-board.
In my past matches I found that Force of Will was not being drawn into enough and was being used 10% or less of the time, so it was taking 4 spots I'd rather use for more utility, e.g. Deathrite Shaman. I'm going to do a lot more testing over the next few days to keep on refinin', but I've been really happy with the results so far and overall resilience without the FoWs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
Anyone have any recent success with this style of BUG?
I played the deck on two small tournaments with some succes. It's a nice deck to play and not very common, but i'm not satisfied with it's performance. It can often win games versus other midrange/control decks, but when you would count the cards that are drawn in the end it's often 35 vs 25 or something like that. You really need to overwhelm your opponent and game 1 can last a long time while trying to deal with Batterskull or something. Against Uwb Blade I need an active Jace for a couple of turns to win a match, while Uwb Blade can win without it. Another downside is that my result vs combo (Sneaky Show, Ant etc.) is 80% of the time a 1 - 2 loss. With my list game 1 will be a loss most of the time, game 2 and 3 I'm well prepared (enough discard, some counters and hate) but even then game 2 ends up in a close win and the 3th game will be lost because the combo player has the advantage of starting (and thus has more time and can pierce your early discard or hide his combo pieces). My current list is as follows:
Maindeck
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
4x Force of Will
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Extirpate
2x Engineered Plague
1x Krosan Grip
1x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Life From the Loam
1x Liliana of the Veil
Btw: Most people don't play Liliana, but I love her!
The deck made it to the SCG finals yet again! So why is this thread still dead :P?
Aquestion I have to ask: In the list I post above, i'm using 1 Liliana main and 1 side. It really is an extra out in some Sneaky Show matchups or when facing a Geist of Seint Traft.. But I'm not seeing anyone else playing the card, does Liliana have no home in Shardless BUG?
I've already discussed that with Esper3k in this thread. There's the problem of you generating too much card advantage with this deck and end up don't using the +1 Liliana because you don't want to discard. It's kinda bad, but after some time you see that does happen more often than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans89