Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

I definitely like Ingot Chewer. Making W to cast Wispmare seems tricky, but the opportunity cost is so low that you might as well throw it in the board too.

Regarding Leyline of Anticipation - it seems awesome...but not really needed. Unlike Vintage, there's very few Prison decks or decks with quad Leyline of the Void. I suspect that Unmask, Pact of Negation, and Nature's Claim are better board cards.



I tested both configurations of which man to have in the board, and I found Informer to be vastly better maindeck. Think about it this way. The vast majority of our mana sources are +1s, so the additional mana upfront (i.e. before LED, which is just a ridiculous card) is much more than 33% more mana. It's more like 75% more mana because of issues with having all the cards in hand. Therefore, you want to maximize the configuration that allows you to only need 3 mana.

Your reservations about Summoner's Pact are reasonable. The deck does reload quite well. I'm just very nervous about consistancy with 4 fewer IMSs and a color-fixer. The deck seems to be all-in, so maybe it's a reasonable risk to be all-in like that. SI does it somehow.

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This deck plays like dredge, its all in the first game and only really a force will or discard stop will stop it . I almost always have an extra spirit guide to pay for taxing counters. Daze or spell pierce are mute game one and even more so on the play. A single un cracked LED pays for just about any soft counter. You only need to win one out of the two sideboard games. They will board in more counters or graveyard hate. Just take out some of the tutors and put in the pacts of negation and unmasks. You will steal a game most of the time by doing this if you mulligan aggressively. This deck mulligans very well unlike belcher, since the magic mana count is only four and does not need mana bridges. Its super easy to top deck more mana sources after a mulligan once you have a win condition and a sideboard card in hand. I have won many games going down to four or five cards. This deck hands down feels faster then the Spanish Inquisition or Belcher. Also show and tell is a funny match up. They will put your win condition into play for you sometimes.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Regarding Leyline of Anticipation - it seems awesome...but not really needed. Unlike Vintage, there's very few Prison decks or decks with quad Leyline of the Void. I suspect that Unmask, Pact of Negation, and Nature's Claim are better board cards.

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No the way it works is you run a second dread return. Post board they try to tormod's crypt, surgical extract, ravenous trap (etc) you, and you dread return in response. The only hate you care about is leyline of the void and jailer.

As far as names are concerned, I really like "Black Jack." That's what this deck reminds me of more than playing magic.

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Originally Posted by John Cox

No the way it works is you run a second dread return. Post board they try to tormod's crypt, surgical extract, ravenous trap (etc) you, and you dread return in response. The only hate you care about is leyline of the void and jailer.

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Interesting find. Assuming all players play appropriately, what if they Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb you with Bridge triggers on the stack?

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Originally Posted by whienot

Interesting find. Assuming all players play appropriately, what if they Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb you with Bridge triggers on the stack?

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That is something I didn't think about, you can play around it by making tokens with cabal therapy, if you had two bridges you could slow play it with cabal therapy to out play that issue. But a second bridge makes this a bit bloated.

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Originally Posted by John Cox

That is something I didn't think about, you can play around it by making tokens with cabal therapy, if you had two bridges you could slow play it with cabal therapy to out play that issue. But a second bridge makes this a bit bloated.

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I think a smart player will find ways to combat us, no matter what. They still have to draw the cards, though. The clear criterion is minimizing interactivity while maximizing speed. I think mulliganning to a Leyline + a kill + having more bloat in the deck is not the way to go, but definitely could be wrong.


Updated the OP to more accurately reflect current lists. If you have any criticisms, please let me know!

If counterspells like FoW are a problem, what about Leyline of Lifeforce?. Unlike belcher this combo is harder to stop countering mana ramp than the kill and our kill is a creature. While comboing out Therapy could clear the way for the Dread Return. The problem is that it does nothing against graveyard hate and for protecting Living Wish/Infernal Tutor (but neither do Pact of Negation if LED is involved).

I think it has been mentioned before, but I would consider Tomb of Urami in the sideboard, either for a transformational sideboard but more as a Living Wish target that can be used instead of the Swamp for black mana or for an alternate wincon.

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Originally Posted by Opaco

If counterspells like FoW are a problem, what about Leyline of Lifeforce?. Unlike belcher this combo is harder to stop countering mana ramp than the kill and our kill is a creature. While comboing out Therapy could clear the way for the Dread Return. The problem is that it does nothing against graveyard hate and for protecting Living Wish/Infernal Tutor (but neither do Pact of Negation if LED is involved).

I think it has been mentioned before, but I would consider Tomb of Urami in the sideboard, either for a transformational sideboard but more as a Living Wish target that can be used instead of the Swamp for black mana or for an alternate wincon.

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Leyline of Lifeforce does not add to much to the deck. We already doge spell pierce and daze very well due to spirit guides and LEDs. Last Time I played against RUG it took two FOW and a Daze to stop the combo. Pact of negation is what this deck needs since you can draw into it. Leylines are just a trap since they are completely dead draws for this deck. I have been happy with my Abrupt Decays in my board to fight chalice of the voids, the natures Claims to fight random artifact hate and Leylines. Pact of Negation also works very well against surgical extraction.

I also Love deathrite shaman in place of wild cantor. You can imprint him on chrome mox for black and green. His is searchable via pacts. Finally you can hard cast him. I have played him turn one off a spirit guide. You then can feed off your opponents fetch lands for the rest of the game for an extra additional black source. It also will force them to keep in creature removal since he can win the game via the attack step.

I'm with Grad Student Guy about Leyline of Lifeforce, but for a slightly different reason. Even if we stick a Leyline, players will just counter our mana sources. It's for that reason that, although I have only goldfished this scenario, I believe that when you are going for cavern of souls from the wish board, you should cast enough rituals to cast your win con once cavern is in hand, because if you don't that force of will will just take out your mana instead.

That being said, I still think leyline of Sanctity might have a place in this deck. Targeted Discard is a big game against us, and pact of Negation doesn't do anything against it, while Leyline just shuts it down.

Out of curiosity grad Student guy, how hard has it been for you to cast abrupt decay? I ask because in goldfishing with the deck, getting two spare mana that aren't being used for going off can be a bit of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

I think a smart player will find ways to combat us, no matter what. They still have to draw the cards, though. The clear criterion is minimizing interactivity while maximizing speed. I think mulliganning to a Leyline + a kill + having more bloat in the deck is not the way to go, but definitely could be wrong.


Updated the OP to more accurately reflect current lists. If you have any criticisms, please let me know!

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Phazonmuant, your MD looks a lot like mine now. The only difference is +2 unmask, +1 inferno tutor, -2 cabal therapy, -1 narcomoeba. I haven't worked on the deck last two days but I'll see what I can do with it today. I'm actually leaning towards 4 cabal therapy too because the scenario of having chrome mox turn 0 and cabal therapy in hand is quite common. Unmask isn't great because it's card disadvantage. My 4th inferno tutor is kind of a filler for the time being because I'm not sure what else to put in. I don't think the 4th narcomoeba is necessary but I can see use for it. Have you tested your SB? How do the belchers work for you?

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Originally Posted by Upstate Jimmy

I'm with Grad Student Guy about Leyline of Lifeforce, but for a slightly different reason. Even if we stick a Leyline, players will just counter our mana sources. It's for that reason that, although I have only goldfished this scenario, I believe that when you are going for cavern of souls from the wish board, you should cast enough rituals to cast your win con once cavern is in hand, because if you don't that force of will will just take out your mana instead.

That being said, I still think leyline of Sanctity might have a place in this deck. Targeted Discard is a big game against us, and pact of Negation doesn't do anything against it, while Leyline just shuts it down.

Out of curiosity grad Student guy, how hard has it been for you to cast abrupt decay? I ask because in goldfishing with the deck, getting two spare mana that aren't being used for going off can be a bit of a challenge.

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If you opponent has chalice at 0 or 1 you need to take care of the card before the combo. So it does not matter how much mana you spend. It also is a nice answer to crypt or relict when blue decks sideboard them in. Game one it fine to go the all in turn one combo. The next two games especially on the draw you do not want to do this against any blue deck. Waiting for the pact of negation or the extra spirit guide or two is almost always worth it. In these game you should bait counters by casting your lotus petals and chrome moxes early as if they where just land. This leaves space in you hand to draw more mana to fight through the non hard counters. This method also plays around fluster storm and mind break trap. Between 3x Unmasks and 4x Pacts most of the time you can force through against any counter magic as long as it before turn four.

Why is Spy in the board rather than Informer? Isn't Informer strictly better in our deck (barring weird scenarios like needing Spy as a Dread Return body if you draw two Narco's)?

Here's my latest list after some tweaking:

http://deckstats.net/deck-1878948-b1...e2f946b6e.html

Post board in general: -2 infernal tutor, -1 angel of glory's rise, -1 azami, lady of scrolls, -1 summoner's pact, +2 thoughtseize, +2 unmask, +1 goblin charbelcher
- Your opponent will be boarding out all their removal spells so I think it's safe to depend on your maniac by himself
- The nature's claim come in if you know they are running leyline of the void
- The rest of the deck are generic wish targets

Let me know if you guys have suggestions.

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Originally Posted by ManyCookies

Why is Spy in the board rather than Informer? Isn't Informer strictly better in our deck?

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Both require 4 mana to cast after living wish (you don't want to leave informer hanging around for removal) but spy can be sacrificed to cabal therapy.

Did you already find real reasons (except for freaking funny) to play it over belcher?
To me belcher looks a lot more consistent (not dead cards), therefore better T1 & T2 win% and also able to recover with a couple of draw steps due to not drawing shit. Also belcher is less hurt by disruption (countermagic & Gy hate).

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Originally Posted by catmint

Did you already find real reasons (except for freaking funny) to play it over belcher?
To me belcher looks a lot more consistent (not dead cards), therefore better T1 & T2 win% and also able to recover with a couple of draw steps due to not drawing shit. Also belcher is less hurt by disruption (countermagic & Gy hate).

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This deck wins without targeting your opponent or an attack step which are huge pros . Sometime empty the warrens does not win the game. With this deck if the opponent lets you finish the combo you always win. This deck feels faster at least to me then Belcher and yes you do have to mulligan more with this deck.

Maybe add to sideboard leyline of void And helm of obedence only need 5 Mana for helm

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Originally Posted by darkice

Maybe add to sideboard leyline of void And helm of obedence only need 5 Mana for helm

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I actually tried this in one of my earlier builds and it doesn't work well because it's a two-card combo. Goblin charbelcher or anything else that only requires mana is probably the way to go.

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Originally Posted by nudon

Phazonmuant, your MD looks a lot like mine now. The only difference is +2 unmask, +1 inferno tutor, -2 cabal therapy, -1 narcomoeba. I haven't worked on the deck last two days but I'll see what I can do with it today. I'm actually leaning towards 4 cabal therapy too because the scenario of having chrome mox turn 0 and cabal therapy in hand is quite common. Unmask isn't great because it's card disadvantage. My 4th inferno tutor is kind of a filler for the time being because I'm not sure what else to put in. I don't think the 4th narcomoeba is necessary but I can see use for it. Have you tested your SB? How do the belchers work for you?

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I haven't tested the sideboard at all, it's purely theory. Once the set comes out, we should be able to get some real tournament data on the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by nudon

Both require 4 mana to cast after living wish (you don't want to leave informer hanging around for removal) but spy can be sacrificed to cabal therapy.

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That's a good reason. Another is that LED is powerful enough to want to include in the deck (especially for its interaction with Infernal Tutor), and having 4 Informers main maximizes LED. It's come up pretty often.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Did you already find real reasons (except for freaking funny) to play it over belcher?
To me belcher looks a lot more consistent (not dead cards), therefore better T1 & T2 win% and also able to recover with a couple of draw steps due to not drawing shit. Also belcher is less hurt by disruption (countermagic & Gy hate).

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Excellent question. I'm not a Belcher expert by any means, but I think that this deck is a bit faster but reloads slightly worse, as you point out. Hopefully that's mitigated because this deck has more business, but maybe that's just incorrect.
I think people are excited by the potential for the deck as much as its actual numbers right now. Right now we have turn win percentages about on par if not better than Belcher and the deck has existed for a week. Belcher took a long time to get consistent, and this deck is enough different that its unique lessons need to be learned. If we can solve the issues, it seems reasonable to suppose that this deck can incorporate more disruption or be consistently faster or both, even postboard.

I haven't been testing the Deck yet, but from a more or less mathematical point this Deck looks superior to belcher in a variety of points.
1. You play "real" Tutors which find the win. Not like Burning Wish on EtW.
2. Four mana to kill someone looks very much like an improvement, although it is 6 with a tutor to find any of the rogues. Burning Wish in Belcher finds EtW most of the time, which most likely gets there, but sometimes just does not.
3. Black Rituals are superior to the red ones. Period. With more mana generated Tutors get better.
4. Disruption in form of Discard. Might seem a little odd considering the Rogue/Tutor could get countered and 4 therapys doesn't mean they will end up in your first seven all to often, but if they do the blue matchup looks significantly better on paper.

I personally think this Deck looks great and it hopefully is worth spending time. I know many of you - like myself - own a variety of legacy staples, but not everyone does. Finding a cost-efficient Deck is a great thing to introduce new players to the Format. And to be honest, who doesn't like killing someone on turn 1? It just seems logical to try and push the Deck for the sake of us all :P