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I kinda dig Soorani's idea of Luminarch Ascension for the control mirror. Has anyone tested it?
Also, can we safely say that this is a dtb now? It has been strong in the format consistently. In this forum only jund has gotten that designation, and it isn't even tier 1 anymore.
I've never tested Luminarch, but that seems really, really good for the UWx Control mirror.
I remember it was really solid back when it was played in Quin lists in Legacy for grindy mirrors. I see no reason why the same wouldn't hold true in the current Modern format.
I think the real question becomes what to cut from the board to fit it in.
Current sideboard:
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Negate
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Stony Silence
2x Luminarch Ascension
2x Sower of Temptation
Sower was for tron, so those could be flex slots. I kind of want a 4th relic too. Timely has been aces against zoo and burn (hilarious with snapcaster).
Feedback? Remember that I am playing only u/w.
Man, why did I forget about Timely Reinforcements? I've been having some trouble with burn in my local meta, so I might have to give those a spin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I'm also really liking the Anger of the Gods "tech" that came out of the pro-tour...but I'm not sure I want to go all-in on replacing my Verdicts with them.
Pertaining to Anger of the Gods... I think there are two points to consider when looking at it.
First, how prevalent are 4+ toughness destructable creatures in your metagame, if it is low then Anger is may be better. You also need to consider the threat of counters and pro-red dudes. To cover all my bases, I suppose you should consider the amount of electrolyze you also run to manipulate the 3 vs 4 toughness question.
Second, also consider if you really need access to more 3 damage spells. My list gives me access to 4 bolts and 3 helix currently plus 4 paths.
For me, the relevant portion of Anger of the Gods is the exile, which gives it the edge over Verdict vs. Pod and Zoo. However, I do agree that there are plenty of potential threats that Anger of the Gods doesn't necessarily answer (Mistbind Clique, Restoration Angel, Batterskull, Etched Champion and Tarmogoyf to name a few).Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
Maybe the "right" play is to stick with Verdict in the main and find some room for Anger in the sideboard? Then again, there are better tools vs. Pod out of the board...so maybe that's not really worth it after all. It's a tough nut to crack for sure.
I really think it depends on the meta.
I could easily see cutting Verdict for Anger in my metagame due to a serious lack of 4+ toughness threats running around. My beef with it is that I have a harder time casting Anger due to the double red requirement.
Even if it is turn 3 Verdict is alot easier on the mana. Perhaps adjusting the manabase is the correct solution.
I actually find hitting 1WWU harder than 1RR...but that could be because I tend to fetch out red pretty early to represent (or actually cast) bolts. I suppose Anger also has the benefit of being castable through Blood Moon, whereas Verdict is 100% dead with my current mana base.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
My meta is pretty variable - lots of aggro decks and generally a couple of people on some version of this deck. Overall, in the matches where I have to think about counters (Twin, the Mirror etc.) Verdict and/or Anger aren't exactly at their best, so I'm not sure how much of a consideration that really is.
Verdict is a million times better in the mirror or pseudo mirror for that matter. Anger can never kill the blink angel, and thankfully Verdict can. Additionally your anger will likely never resolve if it would actually matter.
In the UWR and Tarmotwin, Verdict can be very strong actually because most lists go for the combo as a strong plan B rather then a primary goal.
Dickman strongly supports the combo kill as a plan B and when the best Twin player says something people tend to listen if they are a good player in the first place.
My adjusted mana base = no red. It is my opinion that red is unnecessary. I don't see bolt, ajani, and helix as worth the manabase trouble. Sideboarded anger doesn't really make sense either. I think playing a full set of path, then snapping it back as a better plan. I would play a 4th snap before i played one anger. I want my wipers to wipe in all circumstances. Anger doesn't kill etched champion or goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
My reasons for avoiding red (in a nutshell):
1) manabase stability, tecedge doesn't bother as much, blood moon is mitigated with 8 basics
2) all of the best cards are white and blue
3) I like the gameplan of stalling into a wiper/pw/cryptic rather than relying (mostly) on 1for1's the whole game
4) I feel that the focused sideboard is easier to manage than a more flexible sideboard that invites mana issues. It may force me into specific options, but I'm ok with that.
Electrolyze is one of the best Spells in Modern, alongside Counterflux. Helix and Bolt are incredible against all kinds of aggro decks. UW just doesn't have the raw power. Being able to just threaten a swift 9 on people forces them into corners, and Helix means you don't just lose the burn mirror. When you stop playing it you lose out on a way to kill the much more resilient decks (resolved Pod in topdeck mode, or Bob decks) and simply ways of removing early threats. You can't ever Bolt the Bird in UW. That's a horrific place to be in Control. If you're UW you need either R or B to deal with that.
Of course it's a skill deck so you can play basically any configuration you want and take down any given event, but whatever.
I have used sunlance, which is fine for mana dorks. I just noticed that birds didn't matter if I was going to mana leak their first relevant spell anyways. Bolting the bird is fine tactics, but rote. If all I have is bolts against pod I'm sunk anyways. Making sure pod doesn't resolve is the first step to beating them. If they go into the long game as a midrange aggro deck that can be dealt with.
I am not trying to trivialize the matchup, just driving to the root of how it gets lost. I can see bolts being good but not fundamental to beating pod. If they're on the play and hit a turn 2 pod, that's the nuts for sure. At that point Path is the relevant answer to finks/voice/podded up dudes.
Being able to burn out planeswalkers (or your opponent) is a pretty real upside to running red, in my opinion. Bolt is great tempo, Helix is great tempo/stall, and Electrolyze is pure value. Red also makes snapcaster much easier/better to use. And additionally I really think Ajani Vengeant is by far better than any other win-cons this deck could run in simply UW. i really think you underestimate the power of red here.
Given that it's modern, I also don't really see that large of an issue with "fiddling around with the mana-base" to make red work. It's pretty easy to make this happen. Tec edge is not a huge issue, since by the time you're on 4 mana you should have double of most colors, and the only issue is if for some reason you have two non-blue duals and can't find the third for cryptic. Seems somewhat like a corner-case. The only real issue I see is against blood moon, since to support red you will be running more non-basics and this can be an issue.
The deck I play is Blue, with Red, splashing White if you want to really drive it down. That's why Inplay Mystic Gate over anything else. I don't want much White on my board, but Verdict becomes awkward to cast, and Colonnade activations eat up White diring your turn, but it's entirely build dependant and it's purely because of he cards I play. Moving towards Anger definetly pushes me towards Cascade Bluffs to make that easier.
Sunlance was excellent when I played it in my Junk sideboard.
[QUOTE=nodahero;795459]I really think it depends on the meta.
I could easily see cutting Verdict for Anger in my metagame due to a serious lack of 4+ toughness threats running around. My beef with it is that I have a harder time casting Anger due to the double red requirement.
I can see it being cut in a local meta scene, but for big events I think Verdict is supreme (ha ha:laugh:)
Anger of the Gods does destroy pods and small zoo though. I love it.
Played in a GP Minneapolis Trial this past weekend at Nomad Game Center in Eau Claire, WI. Due to a number of factors (same day as Magic Gameday, horrible weather the evening before, etc), we only had EIGHT people show. Despite the low attendance for what was a 8-hour roundtrip drive and an overnight, non-refundable motel room booked, the store owner was super nice and sold tons of awesome singles for value prices, so the trip wasn't a complete waste. Oh yeah, about that tourney...
Main
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Think Twice
2 Sphinx’s Revelation
2 Lightning Helix
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
Side
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
3 Wear//Tear
2 Counterflux
2 Dispel
4 Negate
This is the exact 75 I've been rolling with at FNM forever. Notice that I've cut the 3 Electrolyze completely from my list and replaced it with the 4th Path to Exile and 2 Vendilion Clique. I don't like Electrolyze right now, and for 3 mana at Instant speed, Clique has a higher impact on the game in the combo/control matchups, while being admittedly worse (but not by that much) in the fast aggro matchups.
Round 1 - Affinity
Game 1 sees my opponent on the play and open with a land (clearly on Affinity), some */1 dudes, then it's on me. I don't feel too worried as I have a Bolt + Snapcaster in my opener, which will surely allow me to reach the mid-late game. This is exactly how the game goes with me killing every relevant dude he plays. There comes a point late in the game where he has 3x Inkmoth Nexus and a Ravager. He sacs his entire board and tries to alpha strike me with Modular + Nexus infect shenanigans, but I have all the removal I need to not die.
1-0 in games. I side out some slower cards like -1 Sphinx's Revelation, -1 Cryptic Command, -3 Mana Leak for +2 Stony Silence and +3 Wear/Tear.
Game 2 sees my opponent on the play and have a strong opening of mana plus dudes. I lay a Colonnade and pass. He then casts Blood Moon on turn 2 and I do not have Wear/Tear + basic Plains in hand... this is bad. I go on for a few turns just to see if I can lucksack into my out, but it is not to be and I lose quickly.
1-1 in games. No boarding changes at all.
Game 3 sees my open with lands, Stony Silence, Wear/Tear, plus some other cards. Obviously, all I care about is Stony Silence. I lay and land and pass. My opponent opens with mana and casts a turn 1 Thorn of Amethyst. This puts a minor wrinkle in my plans, but I still feel good holding onto my sideboard cards. I lay a few more lands, eot Tear the Thron, then land Stony Silence and still have enough mana open for additional action just in case. As usual, Stony Silence just wrecks my opponent. After some number of turns, I land an Ajani, start ticking it up, then it's ggpo.
2-1 in games. 1-0 in matches.
Round 2 - Affinity
I kid you not, this round goes EXACTLY how my first round went, from the Game 2 Blood Moon wrecking me again to the Game 3 Stony Silence blowing him out again. Really crazy how similar this match was.
4-2 in games. 2-0 in matches.
Round 3 - Fast Zoo
Game 1 sees him lead off with a Wild Nacatl. My hand isn't terrible as it has a Bolt, but I'm worried as I don't have much else that matters versus him. He proceeds to turn 2 Goblin Guide, turn 3 Flinthoof Boar, turn 4 Bolt + Bolt me. I die a quick death a turn later. I was never really in this game and he curved out perfectly.
4-3 in games. I don't think I boarded anything in or out. Could've, but nothing rings a bell.
Game 2 sees me open with a healthy mix of removal and cheap counters. As UWR does, I kill/counter everything relevant and draw the game out until Ajani takes over. My opponent was never in this game.
5-3 in games.
Game 3 sees him open with a Wild Nacatl. I lay a fetchland instead of a Colonnade, then pass. I did this as I wanted to be able to Path the Nacatl if he went for another turn 2 Goblin Guide. On his second turn, he attacks with Nacatl and then tries to Ghor-Clan Rampager his Nacatl. This is the first time I've seen that from him and I'm thankful I laid my fetch instead of Colonnade. I Path it in response and the game basically ends there as he's never able to pressure my life total as I'm laying more lands, killing/countering the couple threats he plays, etc.
6-3 in games. 3-0 in matches. I initially am told that I've won the tourney and the 2 GP byes are mine, but then a few minutes later, the store owner announces that due to some ties/pairing shenangians with #2-4, there is a playoff required. So we basically have cut to Top 4 for an EIGHT man tourney. I'm floored, but accept it.
Round "4" - UR Twin This rounds sees me paired up against a buddy who rode up with me from Milwaukee, WI. We've played this matchup dozens of times pre-board/post-board and I'm heavily favored. He knows it, I know it, but we still just laugh at the situation.
Game 1 sees him draw into nothing while I eot Clique him, then start getting in with Colonnade. Colonnade finishes him off as he had literally nothing but blanks.
7-3 in games. I board out -2 Verdict, -2 Think Twice, -1 Sphinx's Revelation, -2 Lightning Helix, -3 Mana Leak and board in +4 Negate, +3 Wear/Tear, +1 Dispel, +2 Counterflux.
Game 2 sees us have this long, drawn out game (always the case in this matchup) where I Ajani -7 him, but he casts a bunch of Flash dudes in response. I think he has 3-4 dudes total, with no lands in play. I'm holding onto a couple Negate and not much else. I slowly die to his dudes as I don't have Colonnade or removal.
7-4 in games. No boarding changes.
Game 3 sees me open with Hallowed Fountain, Island and tons of action like multiple Wear/Tear, Path, multiple Snapcaster. I proceed to draw a second Hallowed Fountain, then don't draw anymore lands for the rest of the game. He plays two Blood Moon, but I'm able to float White mana and Wear it both times. I try to Path my Snapcaster in order to get to my 4th mana, but he casts Pact of Negation. I have 1 chance to draw a Tectonic Edge in order to win the game (Edge his 5th land, he loses on his upkeep), but it was not to be. There's a turn late in the game where he goes for the Exarch kill completely naked and I'm ready to blow him out with Snapcaster --> Wear... but he plays Kiki-Jiki instead and I lose. It's slightly frustrating to lose to variance with such a favored matchup across from me, but at least it's to a teammate and we all had a good time.
7-5 in games. 3-1 in matches.
Overall, I'm very happy with UWR Control in the current meta. I anticipate seeing more Twin in the coming months leading up to GP Minneapolis and I feel that we have a very favorable matchup versus them pre-board and post-board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Seems like Luminarch Ascension wouldn't cut it when your opponent has 9-11 burn spells (UWR) and Snapcasters they can play early. :-(
Don't get me wrong, I love Luminarch Ascension, but I think the format would need to be overrun with slow midrange and control decks in order for this card to be good. I don't even think it's fast enough vs. Storm to pressure them.
Unfortunately, that "mana base trouble" is why Shaun McLauren won the Pro Tour. In other words, Electrolyze, Ajani, Lightning Bolt, etc. ARE worth the splash. Being able to sometimes go over the top and just burn people out is an advantage. Besides, you don't need "wrath" effects to answer everything, just the cards you actually care about.Quote:
My adjusted mana base = no red. It is my opinion that red is unnecessary. I don't see bolt, ajani, and helix as worth the manabase trouble. Sideboarded anger doesn't really make sense either. I think playing a full set of path, then snapping it back as a better plan. I would play a 4th snap before i played one anger. I want my wipers to wipe in all circumstances. Anger doesn't kill etched champion or goyf.
My reasons for avoiding red (in a nutshell):
1) manabase stability, tecedge doesn't bother as much, blood moon is mitigated with 8 basics
2) all of the best cards are white and blue
3) I like the gameplan of stalling into a wiper/pw/cryptic rather than relying (mostly) on 1for1's the whole game
4) I feel that the focused sideboard is easier to manage than a more flexible sideboard that invites mana issues. It may force me into specific options, but I'm ok with that.
As much as I do like Blue/White myself, unless the format slows down and midrange decks come back into favor, the red is absolutely worth it.
Reasons for playing red:
1) Mana base is actually pretty stable with all the duals and 6-8 fetch lands. Blood Moon is mitigated by being a known quantity now.
2) Get to play all the best blue and white cards too, plus awesome red cards.
3) Game plan, while match up dependent, is roughly the same. The 1-for-1's are irrelevant given the existence of Snapcaster Mage.
4) Shaun McLaren's sideboard is brilliant. He wanted powerful one-of answers that, when drawn, will likely completely blow the game wide open - and they sure did.
Quote:
Electrolyze is one of the best Spells in Modern, alongside Counterflux. Helix and Bolt are incredible against all kinds of aggro decks. UW just doesn't have the raw power. Being able to just threaten a swift 9 on people forces them into corners, and Helix means you don't just lose the burn mirror. When you stop playing it you lose out on a way to kill the much more resilient decks (resolved Pod in topdeck mode, or Bob decks) and simply ways of removing early threats. You can't ever Bolt the Bird in UW. That's a horrific place to be in Control. If you're UW you need either R or B to deal with that.
Of course it's a skill deck so you can play basically any configuration you want and take down any given event, but whatever.
Correct. Even with the presence of more 3-power creatures, Electrolyze is still good. Don't cut them [all]. I like three.
Lightning Bolt is the litmus test to which all creatures need to either withstand (4 toughness) or bypass (Geist, Persist dudes, etc). I'm not sold that a deck running Snapcaster shouldn't be running Lightning Bolt.