[Deck] bUrg Tempo

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

@Darkblast
He's a cool card but not that good in a tempodeck like this. why?
-We dont need a lot dredge because it's skeping a draw step.
He doesnt make card advange. Loam are a very diffrent card that us give card backs and makes card advange. Card advenge is very important in a tempo deck!
-What can we kill with blast?
Well a lot like delver and bob of course. But do we need that?
The answer is No ,because we have enough removal+counter.
You need to kill an oppentents shaman instantly. And when we play darkblast twice in a turn with dredge we kill it but makes no card advange. We have better options like bolt! SB options are:
Submerge;) disfigure, grim lavamancer and i like this card a lot on my meta:
Dread of night ;)) important against a lot soul deck or mavericks and death n taxes.
Oh and dont forget the best spell fire coventant.:)

Greets and feel free to post!

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-You are not skipping a draw step when you dredge a removal spell when you need it. You are drawing the card you need when you need it, and it fills your graveyard in the process. Unless you are just dredging Darkblast for the sake of having a dead card in your hand, then you are, in effect, playing terribly. It is not about creating card advantage, but about having superior draws against specific decks. Life from the Loam doesn't provide any useful card advantage if you can't couple it with a Brainstorm and it occupies an entirely different slot to begin with.

-We don't need removal? We have enough already? Then why are we dedicating SB slots for removal spells in the first place? It appears to me that you are completely missing the point here. Have you ever been in topdeck mode with a tempo deck? Have you ever used a Ponder or a Brainstorm to dig for a removal spell? If yes, then look carefully at Darkblast and at its availability. You only need to use it once to be able to convert your draw step into removal for any of the previously mentioned cards. Being able to Darkblast during your upkeep, and again after your draw and 2-for-1'ing yourself is a plus. It isn't the most profitable way to use Darkblast but at least the card allows such a use, and therefore it should be regarded as a potential play rather than joining both your eyes together in the same socket and complain at how you need to use 2 Darkblasts to get rid of a DRS or a SFM when the goal of the card is clearly not to deal with those 2 cards, it simply can.

-I believe I addressed the last point already so I won't repeat myself.

On an unrelated note, I will be trying out a Thought Scour bUrg list at a local tournament tonight. I will let you guys know how it performs.

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Originally Posted by sherko7

Someone playing BURG got top 8 last weekend here in the PH. Not sure if he lingers around here though. I was playing RUG (I still don't own U. Seas) and we met in the top 8. He beat me 3 games, pretty close fight. Here are a few things regarding the matchup...

1. RUG VS BURG is a bit tricky for RUG. BURG has decays, so Goyfs are pretty clumsy.
2. It was pretty easy to deny BURG off a color. Whether red, black or green (blue of course would be harder). Whenever I had a Goyf in my hand I'd try to deny him off of either black or green so he won't be able to Decay me. I'd save up my wastes for when he misses a land drop before I play my Goyf. At the very least I'd untap with Goyf still in play.
3. During game 3, I was able to cut him off of red and this forced him to hold the Bolt he had while I was down on life. Unfortunately, he drew it after flipping a Delver FTW.
4. He didn't play Goyf, if I remember the decklist correctly he played 4/4/4 of Delver/Goose/DRS.
5. In 3 games, I never had a problem reaching thresh with against an active DRS.
6. Rough//Tumble is pretty live against BURG. I board it in since I board out most counterspells anyway. RUG counterspells are often used to protect threats. Abrupt Decay nullifies this.
7. RUG can beat BURG cards 1 for 1 (of course BURG can beat RUG 1 for 1 as well).
8. I got loam locked game 2 after a hard fought battle over lands I won. So obviously, Loam wins the matchup.

I think the matchup is 50-50. We fought a hard battle and like I said, both decks seem to answer the other 1:1. The board is where it gets tricky. Pyroblasting cantrips after a counter war over Stifle/Wastes are almost always correct. He started games 2 and 3 with a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe which, I think, was the difference. He had all the info in the opening turns and every battle I won was almost as if orchestrated. :laugh:

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I was the BURG guy you faced on the tourney. I played a list similar to the SCG build last Sunday. The main difference was my lack of Goyfs and my use of Bayou instead of Taiga. I used Bayou over Taiga because I wanted to utilize my 4 DRS properly. As mentioned by Sasan earlier, playing with a set of DRS will demand a lot of black mana. I didn't use a Badland cause the decks needs at least a blue mana soure and a green mana source to survive. I still see the deck as a UGxy thresh deck.

On the topic of playing with zero Goyfs, the deck should be able to handle it with Decay and DRS if DRS survives the early turns. However, the deck will have a hard time handling multiple Goyfs on the board. Post board, BURG has a lot of answers for a resolved Goyf (Decay, Submerge, and DRS with bolt).

On playing this over the traditional Canadian Thresh, playing DRS can answer several problem cards that trouble the UGR version. I was able to win on Game 1 versus dredge thanks to drawing multiple shamans on my opening hand. The shamans also did a lot of work versus the DNT's Rishadan Port. DRS can also deny an opposing DRS from generating mana.

The BURG mana base can be a bit wonky if DRS dies or if you crack fetchlands prematurely. The deck almost needs 3 lands in the board always. 1 Blue dual, 1 Green dual, and 1 Fetch land.

If I were playing as RUG vs BURG, I wouldn't side in rough/tumble, it can only kill shaman which can be easily handled by bolt. Play probe whether its RUG or BURG your playing.

Why don't we name this German Thresh or something else in line with the traditional weird Legacy naming conventions? :)

For the guys playing fire covenant, don't you find it hard to cast versus Thalia decks?

@querioos dont know why i you like dark blast so much, you have a lot better options.
And we don't need more removal.
When you like him play it but i play the deck enough long to say that he's not the best option..
When you wanna fight a thalia or mother. You should play dread of night or more fire coventant. we don't need to fight a delver or
something with a darkblast..Dark blast is bad against tempo decks..

@thought scour
Why we should play thouthtscour?
We don't have a lot space for that..

@the name of burg

bUrg is still a german name. Burg meens on german: Castle. It's a big castle to fight.
And it's still represent the colours of the deck. I like the name more than the boring german treshhold.

@Bdingo, oh, I didn't know that Burg was a German word. I just thought that it represented the decks colors. Burg it is then! German thresh sounds like a rip off.

@Cheerios: It is a smart move to play more black sources when you play the full set of Shamans. Playing the full set of Shamans can be enough to warrant not to play with Goyfs. But I would give you the advice to play with 1-2 creatures in the sideboard that have an impact and can end games (Goyf,Ooze, Reanimate). In matchups where a beatstick is needed (Tribal, Goyf mirrors) you can board them in and make the matchup easier for you.
About Fire Covenant: You are right that it might be hard to cast versus Thalia decks, especially Death and Taxes. Death and Taxes has a mana denial theme. Versus them it is important to take hands with 3 lands and stabilize. Loam comes there handy as a source of protection. Thalia is another reason why the Spell Snare approach of my list is perhaps better in the current meta compared to the Spell Pierce/Probes approach.

@ Thought Scour: It had its shining moment when Sneak Attack decks reigned. It was an easy way to get Mongoose to thresh. As combo decks are not so dominant in the current meta and as you have a new powerful one drop versus combo - Shaman - it is out of question that Thought Scour can play a relevant role in bUrg. Even Canadian Thresh decks do not play him anymore.

@ Darkblast: To clear up the misunderstandings: It is a good card but perhaps it serves more in decks with more black sources, as it is important to use it sometimes 2 times a turn. I think it is an ok card in bUrg but nothing that will wreck the opponent. Golgari Charm seems betterto deal with a horde of 1/1s. Dread of Night is better versus DnT and Maverick. Fire Covenant is strictly better versus all creatures that are x/2> *and* is really ok versus hordes of 1/1s. To sum it up: Fire Covenant is a damn flexible card that is in my opinion needed in tight sideboards without so much removal space.

The Primer has a new sction: Feature deck list of the moment.

I feature Steve's list. Please read the post and join the discussion:

Feature Deck List of the Moment

In this section I will post the most current list that did well in a tournament and will analyze it if it has some differences compared to my list. My list serves as a blueprint, a good starting point for beginners, is tested thousands of times by some of the best legacy players in Germany. But we must accept that there are more routes to victory than only one list. Furthermore we need to develop the deck in the future and therefore need innovations. These are the reasons for this section.

Let us look at the list of our fellow forum member Stephen. He did an impressive 12th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open Phildalphia on 9/8/2013. He closely lost the match for top 8 versus Dredge.


bUrg by Stephen Nowakowski

Main Deck:
Creatures (12)
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze
Lands (18)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (30)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam


So what are the differences in Steve's list?

First of all the sideboard is nearly identical to the fix slots I proposed. It has perhaps one counterspell less but that is due to his main deck approach. We can assume that the sideboard is within the range of my list.

But the main deck is where the differences begin:

He has cut two Goyfs and three Snares for one Ooze, 2 Pierces and 2 Probes.

I stated in the primer that Ooze is not a solid card for the sideboard. It has not so much impact versus the decks you baord him in as there are better sideboard options. But Ooze in the main deck is a different affair. It ups our main deck grave hate number to four. Ooze can fight Punishing Fire better than Shaman as you can pump him up when he comes to play and remove Punishing Fire one turn later. Ooze can outgrow a Goyf or a Tombstalker. But all this comes with a price: Ooze is a bit slow and as a one-off he comes sometimes too late to the party to make an impact - as hee needs rougly 2 turns to grow to a good game finisher. That is why I still prefer to play Goyf as he is always 4/5 and not demanding that much green mana as Ooze. Only one Ooze seems also a bit random. But Steve did not have the deck space.

The Spell Pierce/Probe package is the bread and butter of the list and here the differences to my list are beginning to show in a big manner. Jacob Wilson nearly won the GP Strassbourg with the inclusion of Probes to RUG Delver. After that he placed well on several SCG tournaments. Now nearly all American RUG Delver lists play with at least two Probes in the main deck. It is the hype card of the moment. It is often played with the combination of Pierce. But why? With Probes you can see the hand of the opponent and plan the upcoming turns in advance. You see of he has a nasty creature, planeswalker etc in hand. From then, you can plan on which card of the opponent you want to spen our removal on and on which your counters. In this situation Spell Pierce is better compared to Spell Snare. Spell Snare hits creatures and spells that are cc2. It hits many spells that make us nearly instantly dead or slow us down some crucial turns (Stoneforge, Thalia, Counterbalance etc.). Spell Snare is our resest button to prevent serious damage to our game plan. But when you can plan your turns, you know that you must use your decay for the counterbalance, your Bolts versus Stoneforge. You do not need the reset button. You can play now a counterspell that hits all other cards that Decay and Bolt cannot answer. That is Spell Pierce. So you see: Probes and Spell Pierce are a natural fit. When you play bUrg without Probess you must play Snare.

But does Probe make the deck better?

It is better at thining out our deck so that our mana base becomes a little bit better. It is another cantrip like card. It feeds our Goyfs..wait he does not play Goyfs. It is good versus combo as you can now see of you can drop a creature and tap out or not.

Probe is worse in top deck mode than a real card. It makes us play less spells and creatures at it takes deck space. One real downside is that you cannot play with two Goyfs anymore. That was the main reason that bUrg was out of the radar for a few months: The lists with only 11 creatures without a single Goyf and the ones with 12 creatures with only one Goyf had real problems in the midrange meta game where you need a constant late game bomb. That is why my innovation with the creature base consiting of two Goyfs helped a lot to become beter in the current meta game.

But Sasan, why did Steve make an impressive finish at SCG? Well let us look at the meta:

Elves 1st Reid Duke
Reanimator 2nd Shawn Tappen
Sneak and Show 3rd
Goblins 4th Jim Davis
The Epic Storm 5th Bryant Cook
Maverick 6th Jacob Lindy
Dredge 7th Theo Van Doosselaere
W/B/R Deathblade 8th Tom Hertfelder
Merfolk 9th Brandon Landis
U/W/R Delver 10th Ben Friedman
Reanimator 11th Josh Rhoades
bUrg 12th Stephen Nowakowski
RUG Delver 13th Joe Demestrio
Lands 14th Kurt Spiess
Sneak and Show 15th Chris VanMeter
Omni-Tell 16th Christopher Hein

It is really combo heavy - I count Elves and Dredge as combo decks by the way. In this meta Steve's list shines: Ooze is great versus Reanimator and Dredge. Probes are excellent versus combo. You do not need so much creatures versus combo and best of all: Spell Pierce is superior versus combo compared to Snare.

There you have it: Steve's list is a superstar in a combo meta. I would perhaps only advice him to play with 4 Misty Rainforests next time. Reasons are stated in the primer.

But as you know my word is not the final verdict in that case. I encourage our fellow bUrg players to comment on Steve's list. It will help to improve bUrg.

Here is a tournament report from Steve: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d=1#post750933

So I don't have Goyfs atm and no Taiga so I can't really play Ooze I think. I'm thinking Vendillion Clique in that slot? Any better ideas?:cool:

Play with two Cliques and three tropicals. It is ok, not brilliant but ok ;-)


We need more discussion on the feature deck list of the moment ;)

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Originally Posted by sherko7

So I don't have Goyfs atm and no Taiga so I can't really play Ooze I think. I'm thinking Vendillion Clique in that slot? Any better ideas?:cool:

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I think you could try a 3rd Trop and play an Ooze. That keeps the same number of green sources for Ooze and Deathrite.

By the way, I posted my report in the Tournament Reports thread yesterday.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ce-bUrg-Delver

I am 1 U. Sea and 1 Taiga away from completing BURG! Been playtesting with proxies as well as Cockatrice. Here's my decklist:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory

I'm playing 1 Ooze simply because I don't own Goyfs. I can probably borrow them if I were to play in a tourney. The deck feels really good right now. It is true, 1 DRS in play is enough, the manabase simply can't handle more unless you have 3 in play and use one of the Shamans to turn the other one on. :laugh:

The Arcane Laboratory and Sulfur Elemental is my flex slot. I'd like to play Flusterstorms if I had them, but then again the maindeck already feels great against combo. I'm thinking of swapping the Lab for an Engineered Plague but I'm not sure if that's overkill against aggro.

I miss Forked Bolt! :frown:

great that your deck is nearly complete. Just play Ooze while you save money for your Goyfs.

Sulfur Elemental is strictly worse than Dread of Night.

Why do you play Arcane Lab? In what matchups will this card help you?

And at least Flusterstorms should be your next investment after Taiga/Usea and the 2 Goyfs ;-)

Right now Engineered Plague is not needed.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

great that your deck is nearly complete. Just play Ooze while you save money for your Goyfs.

Sulfur Elemental is strictly worse than Dread of Night.

Why do you play Arcane Lab? In what matchups will this card help you?

And at least Flusterstorms should be your next investment after Taiga/Usea and the 2 Goyfs ;-)

Right now Engineered Plague is not needed.

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Yep, I can borrow Goyfs anyway. :tongue:

I should try Dread of Night!

Arcane Lab is for Storm and Omnitell, but mainly for Omnitell. They use Defense Grids which shut our countermagic down. At worse, it baits one of our counters. Same reason I keep Spell Snares against them. It doesn't help with Storm much as it costs 3, but T1 DRS into T2 Arcane Lab is nuts.

Flusterstorms would definitely be my next purchase after the duals of course.

Arcane Lab is not needed versus combo as you have so much counterspells.

Defense Grid can be handled by Decay.

Have you read Xantid Swarm? I don't think you want to run this card in bUrg ;)

You should not post without reading the card :( My memories were that the card takes effect in the opponent's turn. Sorry for the bad mistake.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1114113...87379760/Magic

Here are pics of my deck. I wanted to show you that I firmly believe in the power of the deck ;-) That is why the complete main deck has been altered, even the duals. The sideboard is Japanese only. Those cards that are not available in black bordered Japanese (Pyroblast, Fire Covenant) are signed by the artist. I hope you like it :-)

Sorry if my initial comment was a bit too harsh. That's a nice deck indeed ;)

no problem. i did not find it harsh.

thanks for the remark. every one makes mistakes and although I know nearly all legacy staples some small mistakes can occur ;-)

Thanks concerning my deck.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

https://picasaweb.google.com/1114113...87379760/Magic

Here are pics of my deck. I wanted to show you that I firmly believe in the power of the deck ;-) That is why the complete main deck has been altered, even the duals. The sideboard is Japanese only. Those cards that are not available in black bordered Japanese (Pyroblast, Fire Covenant) are signed by the artist. I hope you like it :-)

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Damn beautiful alters! All done by same artist I presume? Love the work on the Underground Sea. :tongue: