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FWIW, Miracles and Esperblade have been known to have Supreme Verdict too, not just Terminus, it's not as though 4 mana is impossible for decks that play some of the most lands in the format (barring... ya know, "lands" decks). Terminus isn't the difference between "boardwipe and no boardwipe", thats the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Okay, but decks dedicated to killing quickly with creature damage can do so by turn 3 or 4. Terminus allows the control player to sweep before the 4 mana Wrath is possible. It also allows for instant speed wiping when the opponent attacks. Before Terminus, Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry and whatnot. Terminus allowed the deck to become a major player again (similar to how DRS brought Elves into the mainstream).Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Morphling was never really played in Legacy. I mean you can find a few odd, old cases I guess but not like regularly. Wrath of God saw regular Legacy play before it was needlessly obsoleted. So yeah it's comparable to Tarmogoyf replacing Werebear or Ponder replacing Portent. Just random shit Wizards did for no reason except they suck at design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Right, but you know what I meant. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
$$$ my friend!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Wizards needs people to open packs.
No they can't. I mean maybe an ideal Goblins hand but that deck barely sees play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Sometimes. That was also true when Wrath saw lots of play though.Quote:
or 4.
The latter is more important. Also just paying one mana for things is great at any point in the game. It's not being able to wrath on turn 2 that makes Terminus good, you very rarely want to do that anyway.Quote:
Terminus allows the control player to sweep before the 4 mana Wrath is possible. It also allows for instant speed wiping when the opponent attacks.
You're contradicting yourself here by pointing out it's "again," counter/top has been relevant at various points.Quote:
Before Terminus, Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry and whatnot. Terminus allowed the deck to become a major player again (similar to how DRS brought Elves into the mainstream).
Really Abrupt Decay is a bigger problem there anyway.
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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
....no?
This is not a good defense.Quote:
$$$ my friend!
Wizards needs people to open packs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
See! You got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
It wasn't intended as a defense! Just a statement of fact...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
You love debating huh? :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I said "Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry".
Why should control have board wipes before turn 4? Esper decks can transition from t2 SFM -> t3 batterskull as a pivot already which can carry them to stability, or stall until Verdict can come down (sometimes even with counter backup for the following turn). Counter/Top can run that same model easily. Moreover, as mentioned before, creature-based damage isn't often killing on t3, and even if it is, why shouldn't an above average draw win a game? What entitles control to have a bullet that can invalidate even the best of aggro hands? t4 sweeps actually creates tension and inflection points, those are skill-testing elements in a game, terminus just says "well, no matter how well the aggro player orchestrates things, he can still get fucked".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
In fairness, Terminus is terrible against Rebels.
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DRS certainly made Elves better, but wasn't Craterhoof the main reason why Elves became good? Having a "WIN NOW"-card certainly made the deck better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Miracles is a retarded design and whoever came up with it deserves a severe beating. It either
a) is randomly drawn and increases the luck factor even more or
b) is utterly broken with library manipulation.
Neither of these cases are desireable. Terminus is the worst offender since it breaks the basic rule of MtG of unconditional board sweepers costing 4+ mana while more conditional sweepers (e.g. Pyroclasm) can be cheaper. Toxic Deluge is probably another exception, but way more reasonable than instant speed Super-Wrath-of-God for :w:. The cheapness also prevents mana denial to work when they can fire off Terminus for 1-2 mana. There are worlds between a 4 mana sweeper like Verdict and a 1 mana sweeper like Terminus.
I have no problem with PWs being Commanders. There were already house rules where this was alloweded. And I doubt the walkers would be good enough to turn the format upside-down. I'm more concerned about Wizards going full-retard again and printing some wonky-designed card that violates basic design rules under the pretext of Commander/multiplayer magic. What we want and need are more well-designed cards like Flusterstorm and Scavenging Ooze, not another TNN/Council's Judgment.
I would like to see this rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Name another sweeper (aside from Toxic Deluge) that costs less than 4 mana and isn't conditional in some way (e.g. Perish only killing green creatures, red damage-based sweepers, Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm only hitting X/1 creatures etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by pcalexander
How is terminus unconditional? Have you ever played miracles? Terminus is often terrible. It does nothing if it is in your hand. You usually have to combo it with top or brainstorm to get any value out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Unconditional in terms of "kill everything". You still have to fulfill the requirements, as you said. Doesn't change the fact that Terminus can often be played for 1 or 2 mana which you can't do with any other "kill everything"-sweeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
The real problem with Terminus is the way it clears the board. It not only gets around hexproof/shroud, but indestructible, regeneration, recursion, and abilities that trigger on "dying". Considering there isn't even a universal -x/-2 effect for less than 3, it seems pretty undercosted to me at W for something that's often cast at instant speed. I get that it has a drawback, but jamming 3-4 of them with Top, Brainstorm, Jace, and shuffle effects means that more often than not you can get one out of your hand if you open with it. Oh, you know what's great at buying time to sculpt your hand with stuff like that...Terminus!
Even if it were WW it would still be amazing. Hell, it would probably still be playable at 1WW.
Planar Collapse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
"if there are four or more creatures on the battlefield" is totally conditional to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Announcement Date: July 31, 2014
Effective Date: August 1, 2014
Magic Online Effective Date: August 6, 2014
Modern
No changes
Magic Online Pauper. Standard, Vintage
No changes
Legacy
Terminus is banned. Card is too busted. Show&Tell is fun and skill intensive to play against, but Terminus is not.
Easy, don't overextend and try diversifying your threats with Planeswalkers and other non-creature permanents.
And so it gets around Hexproof and Shroud. Great, no one likes those mechanics anyways, still not seeing the problem.
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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Do you even lift, bro? Is a fine statement. And This is Legacy is a great defense of otherwise botched design. Terminus in Miracle decks isn't very conditionally restrictive. You'll have many ways to get it off. They have been performing it just fine, clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcalexander
If you want to see it printed out on paper. Then, no. We can't show it to you. But if youre going to ignore every other card in the game. Then you're right again. We can't show you this rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
The mechanic is why they made it cost 1. Cant separate the two from one another. The other miracles are well designed. The mechanic isn't. The others that are using the mechanic aren't as oppressive or have as much of an impact. Despite all of them having a shitty mechanic that rewards top decking and dubbing that it is a "Miracle". While also breaking another basic rule of playing Sorcery as an instant whenever you want to and can fulfill the requirement of the Miracle. Which is easily gotten around. That is also broken by the Cascade mechanic to an extent as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
WotC cannot go back and swap out costs after a card see print. They try to fix things by making cards immune to certain things. Like KGrip or Decay against CounterTops and Delver decks. Or CJudgement against TNNs. They allowed a one mana Instant speed Hallowed Burial because they figured the drawbacks were enough. They were wrong for this format though.
Agreed. But in this format we have at least 4 enablers for it. Mtg Championships had 10 Burials in the top 16. Legacy has 0 in any. Youre right that without them they are weaker than the original. It's also true when you said Bonfire was played because unlike Terminus there wasn't really a wrong time for the player to use it if miracle'd. Burial offered more control of when to cast it and was one mana cheaper. Which made all the difference in the world. If Terminus was 3ww then they'd swap over to that because it's the same card with way more upside conditionally. All those limitations however go right out the window in Top, Brainstorm, Jace, Ponder full playsets format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Now you can Cue all the Miracles players with even more ridiculous defenses. Such as SnT is fine? And Don't play creatures..