Daretti Goblin Welder (Da-Welder)

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Originally Posted by Karhumies

If we are talking about conditional cards into a MUD/welder-like shell to be thrown out with Daretti, don't forget about Tsabo's Web, Torpor Orb, Defense Grid, Trinisphere and Ensnaring Bridge. Most of these are SB options to bring in (instead of Ratchet Bomb, Chalice of the Void, mana stones or Engineered Explosives), but nevertheless in a specific FLGS metagame they can deal a lot of damage if you have information about your weekly opponents.



Actually, SFM only allows to tutor for a BSkull. Masterwork is not an Equipment while it is in your library.

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Actually Masterwork is an equipment, it just don't have an equip cost.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

This is my current Godo+Daretti list:


Tax:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

Equip Engine:
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Removal:
4 Sudden Shock
3 Ratchet Bomb


Mana:
4 City of Traitors
4 Plateau
4 Boros Signet
2 Arid Mesa
4 Boros Garrison
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls


I need a SB boys!

Some cards explanations:
8 sol lands +4 garrison: i wanted the most consistent mana base possible, with the least risk of mana floods and shit. Garrison helped me a lot because they can bounce your traitors in response to the sac trigger, making it the best land in the deck, plus give 2 of colored mana and can reset ur Cavern too ( Artificer->human).

4 Sphere + 4 CotV: with 8 sol lands, i wanted to maximize the 2 cmc artifacts. Chalice was obviously a no-brainer, but i wanted something else for combo and trini was often too slow because with garrison and a sol land your mana go like this 2->2->4. Trinishpere T3 fucking sucks. So i came back on Sphere. We almost always have a lot of mana with 12 lands that give 2 mana, 4 mana rocks, and 22 lands. Also Daretti and SFM bypass the sphere effects so why not. I also needed something vs elves, and multiple spheres are perfect.

The equipment engine: SFM is the best tinker legacy has. Godo goes without saying as he's autowin if he untap and sometimes even without untapping if you have Greaves into play. Batterskull gain tons of life, recur, and can be cheated by both SFM and Daretti. While Daretti may not seems the best card ever here, it's actually pretty good because it can cycle lategame spheres, chalices, for more board clears (rachet bombs) and threats (Batterskulls). It's also a way to actually activate germ tokens without paying mana cost if you have a batteskull in play and one in the grave.

The removals: Sudden shock are no punishing fire, but they make a nice impression. Split second allow you to be sure to remove any creature and not fear bounce (elves), swarm of tokens in response (Pyromancer), protection (mom), or counters. Ratchet are a 2 mana artifact, which are really good in this deck, and kill every single token and low cmc creatures in general. Really good against elves and delvers, and pyromancers. Plus, with Daretti you can cycle those. It's a pity it's non-instant speed, else you'd kill entreat the angel tokens too.

Thalia is a bit random there but provide a nice tax effect + a nice body for equips. And it get almost always removed at mana parity, which means one less removal for your other creatures. Welder is a possibility in its place since we already play Cavern on artificer anyway, but there isn't a lot to weld in this deck (Daretti has the +2 for it and come down late when you'll probably have artifacts in play and graveyard and/or cards in hand to cycle).

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Looks like a solid list. Let me know how it performs. Really curious about that garrisons!

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Looks like a solid list. Let me know how it performs. Really curious about that garrisons!

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I feel like the lategame is shaky. The biggest problem is not being able to keep a threat on board, especially with all your equipments, and then you get outdrawn. You have no Sylvan Library nor TC for your lategame, and WR planeswalker aren't that good for lategame. Daretti rarely do things on a clear board and cost a fair bit.

Just thought I'd chip in on some earlier discussion: Possessed Portal is absolutely filthy with Life from the Loam. You get to dredge through the Portal during your draw step since it's a replacement effect, then simply discard one land each end step. So your board, hand, and graveyard continue to develop while their board and hand grinds to nothing in just a few turns. Something like this with Moment's Peace might be a solid wincon.

I'd been working on a Loam-Welder build with Orcish Lumberjack as an accelerant and Faithless Looting for draw/dredge. Gamble to find the critical one drops. Daretti might be a good fit, I will take a look.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

Just thought I'd chip in on some earlier discussion: Possessed Portal is absolutely filthy with Life from the Loam. You get to dredge through the Portal during your draw step since it's a replacement effect, then simply discard one land each end step. So your board, hand, and graveyard continue to develop while their board and hand grinds to nothing in just a few turns. Something like this with Moment's Peace might be a solid wincon.

I'd been working on a Loam-Welder build with Orcish Lumberjack as an accelerant and Faithless Looting for draw/dredge. Gamble to find the critical one drops. Daretti might be a good fit, I will take a look.

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You can simply +1 Daretti until you hit Punishing Fire and burn them out. Very nice catch on the replacement effect of loam. Possessed Portal is gross, as any Arcum EDH players will confirm.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

Just thought I'd chip in on some earlier discussion: Possessed Portal is absolutely filthy with Life from the Loam. You get to dredge through the Portal during your draw step since it's a replacement effect, then simply discard one land each end step. So your board, hand, and graveyard continue to develop while their board and hand grinds to nothing in just a few turns. Something like this with Moment's Peace might be a solid wincon.

I'd been working on a Loam-Welder build with Orcish Lumberjack as an accelerant and Faithless Looting for draw/dredge. Gamble to find the critical one drops. Daretti might be a good fit, I will take a look.

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sounds interesting however i see the potential problems arising. possessed portal essentially locks game state, how are you dealing with existing threats? Is the deck a modified version of lands?

is possessed portal you're only lock piece or are you combining it with something like mindslaver to improve consistency? I guess running 4x gambles would solve that issue fairly well.

Something i've noticed with faithless and daretti is the card disadvantage really hurts unless you are trying to prison out creatures with ensnaring bridge. They can be offset with 1-2 squee goblin nabob. Maybe i've trying to hard to use this card cause he was the BOMB back in the day when manticore was the best thing since sliced bread.

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Originally Posted by apple713

sounds interesting however i see the potential problems arising. possessed portal essentially locks game state, how are you dealing with existing threats? Is the deck a modified version of lands?

is possessed portal you're only lock piece or are you combining it with something like mindslaver to improve consistency? I guess running 4x gambles would solve that issue fairly well.

Something i've noticed with faithless and daretti is the card disadvantage really hurts unless you are trying to prison out creatures with ensnaring bridge. They can be offset with 1-2 squee goblin nabob. Maybe i've trying to hard to use this card cause he was the BOMB back in the day when manticore was the best thing since sliced bread.

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I had Lightning Bolt for removal and Wurmcoil Engines as alternate targets to stabilize. Not the most insane setup but it's a starting point. You could also go the lands route; I'm far less knowledgeable about what that would look like.

Gamble does improve the consistency, and I'm leaning really hard on Life from the Loam to buy back the lost card advantage. Also, Lumberjack provides an alternate way to hardcast the expensive things, but it's unclear if the Portal is any good without the graveyard (under RIP). Probably not.

Squee sounds sweet, easy combo with Portal there. An intermediate prison plan could be right. I also wonder if Ensnaring Bridge plays decently with Life from the Loam. You do get to choose how many lands to return, and with enough card disadvantage it could be a good option.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

I had Lightning Bolt for removal and Wurmcoil Engines as alternate targets to stabilize. Not the most insane setup but it's a starting point. You could also go the lands route; I'm far less knowledgeable about what that would look like.

Gamble does improve the consistency, and I'm leaning really hard on Life from the Loam to buy back the lost card advantage. Also, Lumberjack provides an alternate way to hardcast the expensive things, but it's unclear if the Portal is any good without the graveyard (under RIP). Probably not.

Squee sounds sweet, easy combo with Portal there. An intermediate prison plan could be right. I also wonder if Ensnaring Bridge plays decently with Life from the Loam. You do get to choose how many lands to return, and with enough card disadvantage it could be a good option.

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I've played with loam quite a bit and its fantastic if you don't have to play around RIP or DRS, but unfortunately you do and it becomes less effective as an engine. Neutralizing DRS is huge since most decks play it. Bolt would suffice here. Recursion based decks are prone to use Punishing fire. As mentioned above you can recur P fire under portal to stabilize.

Loam tends to play very well with exploration, and 26+ lands / 24 if you are playing with fetches. Mox diamond is generally an auto include because of synergy and ramp.

in your deck those may not be necessary and a simple loam dredge will probably be sufficient to justify its inclusion.

gamble is nice but if you are solely planning to reanimate portal you may consider entomb since it is 100% what you want, and its good with loam also. Maybe consider it in addition to gamble? kinda depends on how all in you want to be, and if other cards are important to keep in your hand.

I would say
T1 welder, T2 entomb, reanimate > T1 welder, T2 gamble, get lucky

inclusion of black leads to discard as protection and other reanimation effects.

Punishing Fires addresses most of these issues. It acts as a squee with Grove of the Burnwillows for daretti and kills early attacks. If you have loam, youncan simply keep dredging until punishing fires and grove are in the yard while your opponent has 0 cards and 0 permanents and no carddrawing left. Then you just cast punishing fires a bunch of times and win, so you never need to weld out your possessed portal. You can also just bring back a great furnace and weld that out if you'd like to run that.

If you're afraid of delver, use sudden shocks. I'm not sure what creatures you're worried about that cant be solved with P.fire though. (If youve got a lot of mana you can cast it twice to kill 4-toughness creatures.)

Edit: squee gets eaten by Drs while p fire kills drs and solves the problem while doubling as a squee

Edit2:
Krosan grip answered leyline of the void, rest in piece, pithing needle and grafdiggers cage postboard. Whats nice about possessed portal is that, either your opponent has something against it, or he doesnt. Theres no way to brainstorm yourself out of it (ponder works though). And even if it gets destroyed, you just weld it right back in.

The key thing is to stabilize, that means you need to remove the threats from the table (,punishing fire/ensnaring bridge/planeswalkers like xenagos/garruk relentless/chandra that discards to deal damage)

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Punishing Fires addresses most of these issues. It acts as a squee with Grove of the Burnwillows for daretti and kills early attacks. If you have loam, youncan simply keep dredging until punishing fires and grove are in the yard while your opponent has 0 cards and 0 permanents and no carddrawing left. Then you just cast punishing fires a bunch of times and win, so you never need to weld out your possessed portal. You can also just bring back a great furnace and weld that out if you'd like to run that.

If you're afraid of delver, use sudden shocks. I'm not sure what creatures you're worried about that cant be solved with P.fire though. (If youve got a lot of mana you can cast it twice to kill 4-toughness creatures.)

Edit: squee gets eaten by Drs while p fire kills drs and solves the problem while doubling as a squee

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to me the deck wants to be a "combo" deck with fast reanimation. If not you leave your self open to being overrun. Hopefully the opponent doesn't land a huge threat greater than 4 toughness.

also you have to balance artifacts in the deck.

I found that a good number of artifacts was somewhere in the ballpark of what tezzeret decks are using which i think is ~20. i can check that number later. Running fewer leaves you with nothing to weld away.

I can see how you'd like to run entomb as a quasi transmute artifact, but I wouldnt go all in on the combo (then u can just play reanimator).

I used to play a bug control list with Entomb, Vengeful Pharaoh, Darkblast and Life from the Loam. Perhaps vengful pharaoh could also play a role here. It protects daretti and yourself, and drawing it is no problem since you just discard him to daretti.

Punishing Fire could work well, I had Crop Rotation to add to the mountain of card disadvantage (just testing) which would then get Grove.

The ideal line with Portal would be T1 Welder off of Great Furnace, T2 Faithless Looting discarding Portal then weld it in for the lock. Either have Loam in hand or Gamble for it. I like Lumberjack in this shell because you can Loam back the land you sacrificed, which leads me to wanting Exploration. But then perhaps Mox Diamond is just a better Lumberjack.

I think combo-prison would be the angle here. A black splash is likely inevitable due to Entomb/Decay/discard shoring up all the weaknesses. I play Reanimator so I certainly don't mind abusing Entomb more.

EDIT: I also have Sensei's Top as way to Ponder and weld. Seems obvious but I figured I should mention it.

For reference, my old Tombstill list:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...2083-Tombstill

Also, i'd like to point out that there is not much stabilizing to do with possessed portal as it triggers each end step for each player. You can even sack portal to itself once the opponents hand is empty. This matters because you will be able to use daretti's ultimate, which brings back the possessed portal automatically at the end step. So you get your draw while your opponent gets nothing, even if you dont have life from the loam (lets say you only have punishing fires and grove) you would still be able to make possessed portal assymetricif u can ramp to daretti ultimate.

Right, Portal is a beating as if you slam it early they'll only have ~10 cards between their hand and board all of which will be gone in 5 turns. That could race a flipped Delver if they didn't draw into any burn, and even casting burn spells just degrades their situation if it doesn't win the game.

Here's a basic build I'm exploring for interactions sake, with P-Fire added as suggested. Obviously being in R/G we can get steamrolled by combo and beat up by anything blue, but the mana is nice so I'd like to keep it that way before demolishing the manabase to make way for DRS and company. Wasteland also seems desirable, but again I'm not worried too much about interaction until the core combo seems stable.

Note that there's no way Chalice will work here due to all the 1-drops, but other prison cards like Ensnaring Bridge or Tangle Wire I would certainly consider. Also not sure where to fit Daretti.

Land (20)

2x Forest
4x Great Furnace
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Mountain
4x Taiga
2x Tree of Tales
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (14)

4x Faithless Looting
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
2x Punishing Fire

Artifact (6)

2x Possessed Portal
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (12)

4x Goblin Welder
4x Orcish Lumberjack
4x Wurmcoil Engine

Instant (8)

4x Crop Rotation
4x Lightning Bolt

Is there a card tag or something I can use for the decklist to show links?

You can use [ cards ] [/cards ] for links.

I'd cut gamble and crop rotation because both of them open yourself up to losing against yourself (spell pierce on crop rotation, gamble, discard your mana or threat). If you want to use gamble as an entomb, i wouldnt run 4 because you need to have only gamble in hand for that. Also at least 2 basics should be fetch imo.

I could be talked out of Crop Rotation, but Gamble really helps in finding Welder though it can and will miss sometimes. Unless we're going Entomb-Reanimate, but the mana will get so much worse if B or R is required early and G is still in.

Almost certainly I don't want all the 4-ofs, the list isn't something I'd even walk into a local gameshop with yet. It's more of a "this card versus that" sort of test.

EDIT: So is just Entomb the splash? I could see that over Gamble if Daretti fills the additional slots as extra Welders, kind of the whole point of the thread I suppose. :tongue: Just need to figure out how to adjust the manabase, or whether to add lands to make Loam better.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

Right, Portal is a beating as if you slam it early they'll only have ~10 cards between their hand and board all of which will be gone in 5 turns. That could race a flipped Delver if they didn't draw into any burn, and even casting burn spells just degrades their situation if it doesn't win the game.

Here's a basic build I'm exploring for interactions sake, with P-Fire added as suggested. Obviously being in R/G we can get steamrolled by combo and beat up by anything blue, but the mana is nice so I'd like to keep it that way before demolishing the manabase to make way for DRS and company. Wasteland also seems desirable, but again I'm not worried too much about interaction until the core combo seems stable.

Note that there's no way Chalice will work here due to all the 1-drops, but other prison cards like Ensnaring Bridge or Tangle Wire I would certainly consider. Also not sure where to fit Daretti.

Land (20)

2x Forest
4x Great Furnace
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Mountain
4x Taiga
2x Tree of Tales
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (14)

4x Faithless Looting
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
2x Punishing Fire

Artifact (6)

2x Possessed Portal
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (12)

4x Goblin Welder
4x Orcish Lumberjack
4x Wurmcoil Engine

Instant (8)

4x Crop Rotation
4x Lightning Bolt

Is there a card tag or something I can use for the decklist to show links?

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just don't put spaces in from of the number

you are probably gonna have trouble with artifacts to weld into graveyard.

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Originally Posted by apple713

just don't put spaces in from of the number

you are probably gonna have trouble with artifacts to weld into graveyard.

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It goldfished ok with Crop Rotation since you have 6 artifact lands, 4 tops and 4 Rotations. Once you take that jank out I'm sure the number will be too low, presumably some smaller prison pieces would help.

feel like orcith lumberjack is kinda wasted. you don't really have anything to accelerate into on t2 and t3 wurmcoil is on but if it gets countered it sucks. cause you just 2 for 1'd yourself.

that could easily be something like an artifact.