[Deck] Zilla Stompy 2k6 - RG Beats for the Modern Meta

I wouldn't say that this deck necessarily has a strong Landstill matchup, but it's probably better than Angel Stompy's. Angel Stompy has a lot of essentially dead cards in the Landstill matchup - particularly StP and Mother of Runes. Angel Stompy's creatures also have a harder time dealing with recurring Factories as blockers. It's also slower in general. Zilla Stompy will have an advantage over Angel Stompy in this matchup because its removal doubles as burn, which gives it late game reach, and because the majority of its threats don't die to a blocking, self-pumped Factory.

As for Wrath of God, you don't race it. You simply slow-play against it. Landstill puts very very little pressure on you in the early game. Simply play a single threat, equip it, and hold back the rest of your threats. If you're playing this matchup correctly, Wrath of God should rarely be mroe than a 2 for 1 trade.

Seriously though, this mental comparison of the two decks is rather pointless. The deck isn't Angel Stompy. In fact, I originally created Angel Stompy specifically to beat the earlier iteration of this deck. They serve different metagame roles. Rather than conjecturing on the relative advantages, it makes more sense to take a mental stock of the prevalent decks in your meta, and actually test this deck against them.

Well,what i don't like is that the mana curve has rose so much.

in the past, R/G Beatz was something like this:

3 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Naturalize
4 Rancor
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Chain Lightning
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Incinerate
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

So,this build is very fast,River Boas are efficient Blockers and have evasion against Gro and Landstill,which makes them extremely aggressive against Gro and Landstill.And Troll Ascetic was the most expansive Critter in R/G Beatz. But now Burning tree Shaman and Rumbling Slum? They are just to slow.

Landstill is a good matchup,i played This Build in the pastand landstill does nothing against troll Ascetic,except WoG,but he must first draw one.

And before that troll should already hurt your opponent like hell(rancored is even better).The Problen is,that Burning tree Shaman and Slum are just vulnerable for their CC. And Jitte costs 2 Mana and 2 for equipping,sometimes that a kind of timewalk for the opponent.

You're correct that that's what RG Beats used to look like. It doesn't anymore. It can't. Lists with a low curve like that do not consistently beat Goblins the way this deck does. Zilla Stompy crushes Goblins by virtue of its overwhelmingly large threats. There is a direct correlation between the changes in the metagame and the changes in this deck's mana curve.

It's good that your list beats Landstill, but in America at least, hardly anyone is actually playing Landstill. The decks to beat are Goblins and Thresh. The higher curve and larger beats available in this build allow it to beat Goblins and Thresh with a high degree of consistency. The lower-cc build cannot, which makes it unviable in a competitive metagame.

As for the relative slowness of Shaman, Iwamori, and Jitte, I'll point out that these 3 cards are the reasons the deck smashes Goblins. That's why they're included, and they do their job. Your analysis included on Landstill and Thresh as metagame factors, where Goblins goes compeltely unmentioned. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a Legacy metagame on the planet where Landstill is more prevalent than Goblins right now. Until that changes, the higher mana curve is absolutely necessary.

You are right. That build looks rather similar to Zilla Stompy V1.x, which, if memory serves, was a deck designed with beating landstill in mind. However, Landstill is not currently considered a major force in the metagame, mostly due to the fact that Rabid Wombat, and now Rifter, can beat Landstill with their eyes closed. Zilla Stompy V2.x was designed with the modern metagame in mind, and BTS, incidentally, is fantastic against Rifter. Also, have you tried the Jitte? While its tempo can be less than ideal (though generally, you should consider it to be a 4-drop, and play, equip, and swing in the same turn), it is one of the not so many cards in the format that can own the game and facilitate truely unfair comebacks in a variety of matchups.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

Lists with a low curve like that do not consistently beat Goblins the way this deck does.

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SBing pyrokinesis can really put an end to goblins. It may be true that it will not be able to beat goblins "the way" that deck does, but it can certainly still have a positive matchup.

I've been playing something like this, and have found that it does consistently beat goblins.

Beast [18]
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Troll Ascetic

Spells [18]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Incinerate (Should be chain lightning, but I don't have any yet)
4 Rancor
3 Jitte

Mana [24]
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Mountain

SB [15]
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Naturalize
3 Anarchy

I'm not stating this is the best build possible, or even that is better than your build but rather just that it is possible to consistently beat goblins without relying on the more "fatty" approach to the deck. However, I have been toying aorund with Burning-Tree Shaman and am considering dropping the mongrels for him and if I do then I would drop the lavamancers for more elves and an incinerate for a third ESG; I am not sure yet though.

Pyrokinesis is strictly worse against Gro than is fat. It's also a sideboard answer, which means that Goblins has a better chance of winning 2 out of 3. Personally, I prefer to consistently smash the two most prominent decks in the format.

The lower-cc builds are also much more succeptible to Pyroclasm, which is obviously rampant in the field right now. You're also much much more succeptible to Chalice, which is becoming more widely played as well.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

You're also much much more succeptible to Chalice, which is becoming more widely played as well.

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By whom? I have honestly only seen Chalice once in the last 2-3 months. Aside from that, I really am starting to like your build. Im just curious as to how good the Goblin matchup really is for Zilla Stompy...back a couple pages I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by umbowta

By whom?

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Angel Stax, 5/3, Super Duper Green, etc. I'm not suggesting it's widely prevalent by any means, but a lot of decks in Developmental right now are running them either in the side or in the board, and while that doesn't necessarily translate to current metagame concerns, it can very well be indicative of a soming metagame trend.

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Im just curious as to how good the Goblin matchup really is for Zilla Stompy...back a couple pages I'm sure.

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Really, really good. I'm not just talking smack here - this has been tested against varying builds and various (competent) opponents. The keys to this matchup are making sure that you have an answer to turn 1 Lackey, and that you'll be able to recover from an early Wasteland. In my experience, these are essentially the only times you lose to Goblins, and both can be avoided with intelligent mulligans.

Basically, you have 16 potential answers to a turn 1 Lackey (Kird Ape, Bolt, Elves, Jet off an ESG), you have 8 spot removal spells for the most dangerous of their threats (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Jeek), and each and every one of your threats is a massive roadblock for them. The only relevant removal thay have here is Incinerator, which is typically not enough to remove the fattest of your threats. Even Burning-Tree Shaman by himself is a formidable threat. Add Iwamori or Troll to the mix and it gets quickly out of hand, particularly when you're picking away at their real threats with your spot removal. If a Jitte hits the table and they don't have a Needle for it, the game is essentially over. Your manabase is extremely robust and resilient to attack by Wasteland and/or Port.

I could go on, but it's not necessary. Test it yourself. Goblins is one of the deck's best matchups, which is in fact one of the biggest reasons it's worth playing right now.

I prefer the curve into relevant fat option but respect the power of low cc R/G. My question would be, can the deck include Tin Street Hooligan as a combination of efficient beater and artifact removal? Would that make enough of a difference? I'm asking because I am running R/G in T2 (ironically the fat model....) but use the Hooligan for Jitte & other annoying artifacts Game 1 without wasting a Naturalize type slot (or just losing....). In my deck, I also have the mana flexibility to cast him for RR or R1 instead of RG - which can be very important & leads to my next question, can Hooligan & Jitte safely & efficiently co-exoist in the same deck?

I like the idea of a R/G DW option in the current meta as it can make life extremely difficult for the top decks. It does open the deck to Pyroclastic hate more then the fat option, but speed counts, as does cc.

Quick list of relevant artifacts:
Aether Vial
Jitte
CotV (usually Game 2 - but bad for 1cc deck whenever it hits....)
Cranial Plating (yes, it's still around) & friends
Cursed Scroll
Disk
large fat critters from Core to Naut to......

You could run Hooligan, if it were relevant in your meta, yes. Personally, I'd recommend against it in most metas, because typically the biggest problems the deck faces are not in the form of artifacts. It's nice that they answer Vial, but you already crush Goblins, and frankly, I don't relish the thought of making their Gempalms any more effective. It's not uncommon for them to be only a single goblin away from having the damage they need to remove your most significant threat, and Hooligan can provide that boost.

As for Jitte, it's not that relevant. You can use your own Jittes as pseudo Disenchants, and you tend to play them first anyway.

Chalice can be a pain, but it's not that prevalent, and it's also not that big a concern for the deck because of its highly varied curve anyway.

Cranial Plating is nice to get rid of, I guess, but that's certainly a metagame call. Same goes for Disk. And 'core. And definitely Dreadnaught.

As far as Cursed Scroll is concerned, it doesn't matter at all. It's slow as far as direct damage is concerned, and it doesn't kill any of your significant beaters. Shaman makes it more a liability than a threat.

The main artifact that can give you trouble is Pithing Needle naming Jitte or Troll, but that's almost certainly going to come out of the board.

In short, in most metagames, I think Hooligan belongs in the board, if you run it at all.

1. Only 8 mana speeding creatures in which the Elves are hard to survive to the second turn makes 8 3cc creatures and none 2cc ones quite disputed;
2. Troll Aecetic and BTS are awesome. Have you ever considered Dosan the Falling Leaf? And there are some 5cc creatures(the 9/9 trample wurm needs enchantment(Rancor) to sustain) seems to be better than Iwonari(but this guy is 4cc, that's true.).
3. Jittle is great. None swords is needed? What about Lightning Greaves(to speed up, and as to 2, the wurm more reasonable?)?
4. For SB, Viridian Zealot is better than Naturalize. Tin-Street Hooligan, seems to be great. They are 2cc creatures in answer to my concern in 1, and I know the problems are their spaces(replace Kird Ape, is Kird Ape realy necessary???) and their mana base.

Zealot cant be used against Humility. Rifter has been showing up more frequently than it used to. The deck does have Jitte to already get around Humility maindeck but Zealot is just a bad answer to Humility. His threat density is high enough where his naturalize doesnt need legs. Ztompy can just side out burn for the Naturalize.

Also, to answer another point. Yes, Kird Ape IS really necessary.

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Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

1. Only 8 mana speeding creatures in which the Elves are hard to survive to the second turn makes 8 3cc creatures and none 2cc ones quite disputed;

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It's not hard for ESG to survive long enough to accellerate your threats, unless you're referring to hand destruction.

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2. Troll Aecetic and BTS are awesome. Have you ever considered Dosan the Falling Leaf?

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Against what? Counters are almost non-existent in this format, and you already have good game against Thresh. It'd be decent against Solidarity, except that it's only a temporary setback against them, and Pyrostatic Pillar and REB are both better answers for the board.

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And there are some 5cc creatures(the 9/9 trample wurm needs enchantment(Rancor) to sustain) seems to be better than Iwonari(but this guy is 4cc, that's true.).

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The deck's curve essentially stops at 4. The deck can't afford to get any slower without adding some real control elelments like Trinishphere or Wire, at which point you're playing a different deck.

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3. Jittle is great. None swords is needed? What about Lightning Greaves(to speed up, and as to 2, the wurm more reasonable?)?

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Jitte is indeed Great. Swords is mostly unnecessary. There are some matchups where it would be nice, like Angel Stompy and Reanimator, but there are plenty of matchups where it's strictly worse than burn. In some metagames you could splash white and run it over Bolt, but in most I don't think it's worthwhile. As for Lightning Greaves, you simply can't afford to run more than 8 creature enhancers, and there's not a chance in hell I'd drop Rancor or Jitte for them.

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4. For SB, Viridian Zealot is better than Naturalize.

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It's much slower, it doesn't answer Humility, and it doesn't answer Chant on a Stick. As a maindeck element, it might be better against a diverse field, buit Naturalize isn't in the maindeck. It's there for very specific matchups where Naturalize is indeed better than Zealot.

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Tin-Street Hooligan, seems to be great.

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In certain metagames, yes, he's a good choice for the sideboard. In an unknown field, I'd rather have Naturalize for its versatility, however.

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They are 2cc creatures in answer to my concern in 1, and I know the problems are their spaces(replace Kird Ape, is Kird Ape realy necessary???) and their mana base.

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As long as Goblins is a major force in the metagame, yes, they are absolutely necessary. The can effectively chump any goblin (aside from Piledriver) without dying, and they're a difficult to remove first turn blocker for Lackey. Without them, the deck's ability to smash Goblins would be significantly reduced.

I have been thinking about hunted troll. Wouldn't that be quite awesome in the rumbling slum/iwamori spot? The faeries are litterally no problem at all, and he beats for a tremendous 8, AND regenerates for a mere G...
I think he is definately worth testing at least. You haven't metioned him with a single word, why is that?

- meanee

Meanee, Hunted troll has a few problems. First off, his 8 power is irrelevant, by playing him your opponent now has 4 chumpblockers to go through before he needs to find an answer, which he very well might already have. Secondly, regenerate is not useful for him ATM. Swords to Plowshares immediately takes care of him, netting your opponent 4 faeries. Also, humility and wrath of god dispose of him without much of a problem. Therefore, he doesn't really have an advantage over Iwamori (who will pound over a lot in this format, where large creatures are scarce) or Rumbling Slum (who can beat any creature, while providing damage for a deck that is almost always playing the beatdown role. Slum is essentially a 6/6 for 4. Hope that clears up any confusion.

I was just looking at my 16 spots to get rid of them faeries (8 burns, 4 rancor, 4 jitte), and thought that these might get rid of those faeries before they would ever become anoying... Maybe its just the tiny timmy in me who wants to play a critter with an astonishing power of 8!! :)

- meanee

Hunted Troll is extremely conditional, Iwamori is anything but. There's not much more to say beyond that. 8 power is nice and all, but his toughness is lower than either Iwamori or Slum, which is a huge liability. His regeneration is nice. but it makes him cost effectively 5 to play if you want to protect him from removal, which is outside of the deck's curve. Honestly, I'd by far rather have the trample and extra toughness on Iwamori than the 8 power on Troll. In fact, I'd probably play Iwamori over Troll even if he didn't give the opponent creatures.

Thanks for the detailed answer from Godzilla.
I am convinced that Zealot is inferior to Naturalize. But I think there are some more to be discussed in the SB.
As you have mentioned before, main threats to the deck is something like Wrath of God, Worship, and some other annoying white permanents. And for the main deck, the build has strong defenses against Goblins or Thresholds. Then why the presence of Tormad's Crypt?
What about something like this:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Anarchy

For the fletches, what about the split for 2 Wooded Foothills/1 Bloodstained Mire/1 Windswept Heath?

Finally, I am still stick to my point for Greaves. It might in place for Jittles! Equipping on the Endless Wurm just means ending the game! A quick attack is much better than double +1/+1s(as your creatures are strong enough), especially against Wraths.
Why not Rancor not placing on the targeting creatures with Greaves? Equip Greaves to another guy, then Rancor on, then place back if you want to. It might burn you 1 or 2 with BTS on the field.
With Greaves, 4 Iwonari may be replaced by the split of 2 Iwonari/2 Endless Wurm, or 2 Phantom Centaur/2 Endless Wurm.

Crypt included because while Thresh is positive, it's not a walk in the park. Because it's one of the most prevalent decks in the format, it makes sense to strengthen your game against it. It's not totally necessary, though. Your sideboard is viable, but it's less flexible.

As for the fetches, there's not a particularly good reason to hurt your consistency by splitting them the way you've suggested. It defends against Pithing Needle to a degree, but if your opponent is naming Foothills instead of Troll or Jitte, you're in good shape anyway.

As for Endless Wurm and Lightning Greaves, you're fully into the realm of the Danger of Cool Things. Wurm is essentially outside your curve, and Greaves are essentially the suck. Jitte is one of the stronest cards in the deck by far and away. It is exceedingly important in the Goblins matchup, for one. It's also highly important against Burn, as well as a great many other matchups. I can't fathom why you'd want to replace the most broken equipment ever printed with Lightning Greaves, which do essentially nothing to further your gameplan.