The new Legacy metagame

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Originally Posted by btm10

I actually think Burn gets marginally worse since Miracles was a pretty good matchup (once Surgical almost completely displaced Rest in Peace) and the combo decks that will take up some of that meta share are tougher for it than Miracles was.

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Elves won't be tougher than Miracles - especially since cutting Exquisite Firecraft makes room for more Searing Blood.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Savvy Miracles Pilots are trading their Tundras for The Tabdrnacle At Pendrell Vale. :wink:

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I realize you're joking, but I don't think that's likely. Cost issues aside, Lands can still be hated out, and the cards that are good against Lands (Wasteland, Pithing Needle, Chalice, nonbasic land hate, and graveyard hate) are all still good against the field (and many are getting better). If people want to hate Lands out, most can do it without hurting their other matchups too much. When people sleeve up interactive blue decks, they're almost always saying that they plan to outplay enough opponents to go X-1-1 or X-2 without having to worry about many specific matchups, and Lands doesn't usually offer that experience.

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Originally Posted by Maximus

I don't think storm cares a lot about Leo, it's just another hatebear. I would still be much more afraid of Thalia between the two. It will be nice to not have to sideboard 8-9 cards for a single MU though. Also agree with whoever said the Level 0 prediction of storm and elves coming back. I'll take this one step further and call generic creature decks coming back as well. Maverick isn't nearly as "fair" a deck as people make it out to be.

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Storm cares about Leo if he's what comes at the end of threat into Hymn into Thoughtseize. If people start playing more Flusterstorms or Mindbreak Traps his value will go up against​ Storm.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Elves won't be tougher than Miracles - especially since cutting Exquisite Firecraft makes room for more Searing Blood.

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Elves is a fine matchup for Burn. ANT and Sneak and Show are uphill (though not as much as people think).

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I will say that Miracles definitely punched Storm in the gut, but the card that I contend actually killed the deck is Leovold.

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I think Sanctum Prelate is high in contention for this honour. If it didn't exist, I'd immediately sleeve up Storm. But having an even or slightly negative Death & Taxes matchup is just embarrassing. Worse, the Burn matchup isn't even that good anymore.

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Originally Posted by btm10

When people sleeve up interactive blue decks, they're almost always saying that they plan to outplay enough opponents to go X-1-1 or X-2 without having to worry about many specific matchups, and Lands doesn't usually offer that experience.

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Delver is an interactive blue deck.

When people sleeve up the Miracles, sometimes it's because they want a hard control deck that's interesting to pilot. Some of them will look to RUG Lands - the "purest" control deck going.

With Terminus gone, I wonder about the following thing:

Could some kind of Affinity/Ravager Staxx deck become a thing now? Walking Ballista is an incredible stupid card when paired up with Ravager (or Steel Overseer) and depending on how you build it, you could run Chalice and/or multiple Sphere effects.

Sample list

Sure, Legacy doesn't have Workshop or broken artifact mana, but I think it might be worth exploring, simply due to higher resilience to Blood Moon/mana denial compared to Eldrazi.

Check out the affinity thread I've been posting on for the last 2 weeks.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Whitefaces will disagree all day without providing any supporting argument, but while CB was difficult for Storm decks to fight through, it's not like it was impossible to beat. Of course when games go long Storm is going to lose; that's how the deck works. I've been killed by ANT through an on-curve 2 CB as often as I've blind flipped just what I needed to in order to counter their go-spell.

I will say that Miracles definitely punched Storm in the gut, but the card that I contend actually killed the deck is Leovold. Being able to draw 10+ cards during the ANT player's go-turn means that you can pretty much find any answer that you need. Now, if decks start playing ETW as the payoff instead, that will change. But look at it this way:

• With Miracles in the format, Storm was effectively forced into going to Tendrils every time since ETW was less effective
• With Miracles and Leovold in the format, neither of Storm's finishers would get the job done since Tendrils now could be Mindbreak Trapped or Flusterstormed away after the opponent drew half their deck. AND the Storm player now could no longer cantrip to set up their go-turn
• With Miracles out of the format, Storm will be looking towards ETW as the main finisher as Leovold remains present, but the issue of Leovold preventing them from sculpting their hand remains

I don't think see Storm's numbers going up as much as you're anticipating.

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'Of course when games go long Storm is going to lose' - this wasn't true at all until recently. Post board, with the grinding station setup that was widely adapted, it definitely favoured Storm as they could set up land drops with cantrips/top for a very easy combo turn with PiF.

But I think Miracles was favoured vs Storm in the last year, though it was a close matchup being very pilot dependent. CB wasn't the killer itself, it was that backed up by the huge glut of countermagic and most importantly, surgical extraction and Snapcaster Mage taking away the ability to grind with multiple Tendrils.

Leovold absolutely didn't kill the deck. Ask any good Storm pilot and they're tell you differently. Leo is great vs them, but is still a hatebear, it's arguably worse than Meddling Mage or Canonist since you can still combo through them and hope they don't draw the Trap or Fluster if you've not set up enough mana floating. With something like Mage or Canonist, you still need to answer them first.

I mean, did you even follow the meta in the last half a year or so? Storm was the second best placing deck for a while on Goldfish. I agree with the others that Miracles leaving the format favours it.

I just pulled BUG out of the DTB and added ANT. Leo definitely killed storm...

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Originally Posted by T-101

Obviously there are huge ripple effects from Top that we won't fully understand for some time.

I'm sleeving up Maverick again. I think Storm will probably pick up, and like you mentioned, Elves. With that in mind, I'll probably hedge on more Zealous Persecutions, Null Rods, maybe an Engineered Plague, and some extra discard.

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This is some solid advise, and I will do the same.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Delver is an interactive blue deck.

When people sleeve up the Miracles, sometimes it's because they want a hard control deck that's interesting to pilot. Some of them will look to RUG Lands - the "purest" control deck going.

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While I agree, I think that it is a very difficult transition. They are somehow switching to a slower deck, plus the decks both play a heavily control game, but in vastly different ways. Playing counterspells and counter top is far different from trying to control the game via mana denial and tabernacle and punishing fires and recurring EE's.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I just pulled BUG out of the DTB and added ANT. Leo definitely killed storm...

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ANT is a DTB at the same time as Miracles? Miracles definitely killed Storm...

The DTB section isn't just his personal thoughts. It's a number driven section. His point is that Storm isn't dead at all. To either miracles or BUG despite some claims.

Legacy killed Storm!

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

While I agree, I think that it is a very difficult transition. They are somehow switching to a slower deck, plus the decks both play a heavily control game, but in vastly different ways. Playing counterspells and counter top is far different from trying to control the game via mana denial and tabernacle and punishing fires and recurring EE's.

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Absolutely. I am not expecting a mass migration!

But I believe there is a subset of Miracles players who have also enjoyed prison control over the course of their MTG hobby. An others who mostly enjoy control for the sake of control and might very well be willing to learn to play prison. Not every Miracles player will be happy to switch to midrange-control.

Basically I'm expecting a moderate surge in interest.

Also, some people are expecting combo summer, while others are predicting tons of fair creature decks. Obviously one of these argues more for Lands than the other!

BTM10 was half way correct, in that I was half way joking. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

The DTB section isn't just his personal thoughts. It's a number driven section. His point is that Storm isn't dead at all. To either miracles or BUG despite some claims.

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Yet everybody claimed Miracles had no natural predators, despite Infect frequently showing up there. As if DTB were an objective numbers driven concept except for Infect. :laugh:

I'm not actually bitter, for the record. Just having fun.

Saying Infect was a predator of Miracles is a bit of a push.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Saying Infect was a predator of Miracles is a bit of a push.

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it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

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LOL since when? Any "predator" of miracles had the same exact problem, they would be %60+ against miracles game 1 and then when game 2 and 3 came around the matchup win % drastically dropped. I don't know how often you step out of your lands bubble but what you said is certainly not true.

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

LOL since when? Any "predator" of miracles had the same exact problem, they would be %60+ against miracles game 1 and then when game 2 and 3 came around the matchup win % drastically dropped. I don't know how often you step out of your lands bubble but what you said is certainly not true.

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Maybe Tom Ross is in a Lands bubble too?

He said he only lost to Miracles once.

Infect kills (with protection) before Counter-Top gets set up.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

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I just went to Mtgcoverage and pulled up the last three vids of the match, not cherry picking, these are the latest three I can find on the site:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfCdUUwGHY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb99luswaE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg69nCd36N4

Only one of those three games looks like it was a wipe out. No auto losses there.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I just went to Mtgcoverage and pulled up the last three vids of the match, not cherry picking, these are the latest three I can find on the site:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfCdUUwGHY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb99luswaE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg69nCd36N4

Only one of those three games looks like it was a wipe out. No auto losses there.

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Still shows a 2:1 win-rate (for what that much data is worth).

Would you agree Infect was strongly favoured?

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

I don't know how often you step out of your lands bubble...

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What? Why would I do that?