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Here's a game-state from a little while ago. Turn-two kill enabled off Gustha's Scepter (after getting Wastelanded):
http://i.imgur.com/mYvZTLR.jpg
(Tap Opal, play Tomb, tap Tomb, sacrifice LED for WWW: six mana total. Tap the Scepter to bring back Salvagers, make a million Monks and punch through with two that are active against one Deathrite. GG.)
Is the miser's Mox Diamond just there mainly to get extra lands out of your hand for Oath?
It's just an acceleration hedge with the other rocks. It has synergy in that regard with Oath, which is nice.
I've been tinkering with a list that is more streamlined:
// 60 Maindeck
// 26 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Gustha's Scepter
// 12 Creature
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
// 4 Enchantment
4 Oath of Scholars
// 18 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod
// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Gustha's Scepter
// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Holy Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I really like the Oath of Scholars idea, but how you deal with a Chalice on 0 with that list?
Attack your opponent and make Monks. Engineered Explosives on 0 (CMC=2, Sunburst=0) is another way. I don't see Chalice decks locally, so my sideboard can be tweaked if I suspect it.
What's the general opinion on the Gifts Ungiven approach?
A Gifts package of
Unburial Rites
Lion's Eye Diamond
Auriok Salvagers
Walking Ballista
should win the game, doesn't it? The worst case is if you get LED into your graveyard, so you need 6 mana to combo off, but nonetheless it seems reliable.
Wouldn't the "worst case" be them giving you Rites and Ballista? In that case it would cost you 7 to win, 5 to cast Rites to get Slvagers, 2 to activate and go off with LED.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
Yes absolutely correct. Too expensive? I find the Gifts list very interesting nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Probably? I don't know, maybe, because you play have to play a 4 CC card, then a 5. Daze and Wasteland could be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
I was just making sure I understood correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
What is your side in/out plan against your meta ? I played the probe version and they always were sided out.
I'm tinkering around with a bunch of different lists. I don't have a concrete sideboard plan at this point because I'm still discerning how the deck operates without cards in the starting lineup.
I will, however, never play Probe in this archetype again.
I stand by the fact that this is a stompy deck first and foremost and you just want to keep gas flowing so playing the sceptors and all that non-sense is going the opposite direction than what you want to be doing. If you try and play the long-game against any deck in legacy with this deck you will often find yourself coming up short. Play a T1 or 2 mentor or T3 combo is how you are winning with this deck. Can you win with the Oath and the sceptor "cutesy" stuff, sure. I don't see that being a consistent option or being a streamlined version of the deck though.
Bomberman was on stream in the SCG event. Crushed D&T in two quick games. No combo kill, but Monastery Mentor on turn one is still good enough.
It's really not cutesy. The deck has no intrinsic late-game sustainability as you cantrip through rocks and hope to hit a combo piece. A card like Oath gives the deck a huge swing, and can certainly afford to with the extra mana floating around. Emptying your hand and getting a key cog like Salvagers knocked out is absolutely terrible. If you want to keep the deck glass cannon, by all means do so. The argument is that you're implying these cards force the deck to "try" to play the late game - but you're not: they're a compliment. The entire deck is predicated on effectively dumping its hand and hoping for the best. You can't have sustainability over the course of a fifteen-round tournament like that without some way to bolster the overall strategy. The deck has no true mid to late-game "bombs," per say, even though it's called "Bomberman."Quote:
Originally Posted by Capi5681
In the slots where Gitaxian Probe once occupied, now Oaths do. The two other flex spots right now for me are Scepter. That may change, but until I see evidence otherwise - that's all anecdotal. The existing iterations of the deck parallel it to Clubber Lang from "Rocky III": it comes out of the gate with full force, but doesn't have the stamina to pick it up later after it depletes itself. I injected a little "Rocky IV" into the deck and gave it some Drago-infused 2000 PSI punching-power. (Okay, so a little over-dramatic. But I'm a little wasted and that's fine by me.)
EDIT: Scepter is a card that will help you not only win games earlier than expected, it protects your hand when you can't cast something like a Salvagers on turn one. With chaff like Lodestone Bauble serving as an unorthodox win condition, I fail to see how a card that can synergize so well with the deck - at zero mana, no less - is not even worthy of a flex slot.
Thoughts on this list:
// [Legacy] Bomberman
// 60 Maindeck
// 25 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gustha's Scepter
// 12 Creature
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
// 4 Instant
4 Thirst for Knowledge
// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Den
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Containment Priest
// 5 Enchantment
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 In the Eye of Chaos
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Disenchant
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Terminus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Thrist of knowledge is better than bob ? How about ethersworn canonist in sideboard (against storm) ? Have you ever try recruiter version ?
The deck doesn't need late-game sustainability on that level. It has a value plan of salvagers re-buying baubles for extra cards but if you're at the point in the game where you're on that plan either you are very far ahead or very far behind anyway. Mono-red sneak attack, Colorless Eldrazi - these are the same "type" of deck as Chalice Stompy Bomberman. Its a stompy deck. It wants to play a T1 or 2 chalice or threat and win by T3 (often by shear board presence). Also since we don't play brainstorm and have zero card "selection" to speak of. You must cycle through as many baubles as possible to keep any sort of consistency from game to game. I play 10 baubles - 4 Mishra, 4 urza, 2 lodestone as bauble is never a bad draw to just dig yourself deeper and find mentor or combo. That is also why I think Bob (if you're Wb) or Thoughtcast/Thirst (if you're Wu) is so crucial as it keeps the gas flowing in those crucial early turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I think we are trying to accomplish different things with our differences of the deck.
Agreed. The core of the deck is essentially fine; there's no need to adjust the primary architecture. The key is how we want to touch up the exterior with cards that augment the overall strategy. Dark Confidant, Thoughtcast or Oath: they all do essentially the same things and have their respective advantages and disadvantages.
In my opinion - and I've seen this time and time again for who knows how many years - combo decks like this lose late-game sustainability. I don't think that's a bad thing, because it's essentially how the deck functions, but it's not something that can't be tweaked. This is not a Brainstorm deck, so the key is maximizing draws at any given point beyond turn four or five. If it means utilizing three or four slots, that's not going to make or break the deck. Bob is fine if you're on those colors, but I personally prefer UW. I'm not sure if Oath or Thirst is better, but I do know that the deck needs a draw engine outside of cantripping rocks.
I think that's the key to Chalice Bomberman that differentiates itself from other Stompy decks. It has a servicable "lock-and-smash" plan with Chalice into Mentor + go nuts, a combo plan with Salvagers + LED (just like how Mono-Red Sneak is a "lock-and-combo" deck) and it also has the ability to grind out the opponent's resources with Salvagers + Baubles drawing cards. I do think that each colour has a viable card draw engine to supplement the somewhat slow Salvagers + Baubles engine:
Blue
Thoughtcast (requires a shaky mana base, however)
M.Keller's Oath of Scholar's and Thirst for Knowledge
Trinket Mage has also always been an option in these, but is often a little lacklustre.
Black
Dark Confidant is the big and most prominent one here currently.
Red
Imperial Recruiter is not a card advantage engine per se, but allows the deck multiple avenues to get Salvagers which helps both combo and grind routes if needed.
Green
I mean, I guess Sylvan Library?
That being said, Mono-White has a more stable mana base and stronger Metalcraft synergy thanks to being able to play a full set of Ancient Den.
Lots of things to consider, and I like the investigation into newer CA engines. Oath is sweet.
This looks exciting and Thirst may be something to investigate further - Thoughtcast has been neat, but making the mana so clunky I've not been a fan of. Then again, the mana base of this list looks a little ambitious too - how has it felt? I'd sooner like a Fair over the Ruins tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I like the idea of Scepter and may give it a shot next time I'm on the deck. As aforementioned, it looks great vs. discard which I've actually been having trouble with.
I understand that oath and thirst are both very good in the context here, but why isn't jace in here? This is a deck that can go turn 1 jace/turn 2 jace very easily.
I would recommend 3 jace, and maybe 1 tezzeret the seeker. It's very possible 4 jace is just correct.
Quick edit. The deck would likely want to go back to a fetch mana base to ensure you can reliably get double blue from lands more easily, but that seems worth it.
I created a deck a bunch of years ago called planeswalker stax. (it's on the source somewhere) The deck started out with 2 or 3 jace and ended up with 4 jace 4 tezz (aob). I feel like this deck is doing similar things.