Ruby Storm

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

So it's entirely possible that a different thread could be opened for a legacy UR gifts deck, with some better mana and fixing, cantrips etc.

I think for the mono red thread we should stick to seeing what the most optimal builds are. The deck is still in its infancy, and its highly suspect to change quite a bit.

If you start a new thread for UR gifts, I'd be happy to help contribute.

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Sure, but I think Fury is what makes the deck viable at all. I think mono-red would be, by nature, much more stable. I think once you start splashing colors it inevitably leads you to TES/ANT, which are established decks. Gifts is a known quantity, if there was a competitive Gifts storm deck for Legacy I think it would already have been done (I could be wrong, but I've never heard of it.) I'd rather try and break open Fury, and have a red-based deck that naturally preys on a primarily blue format.

The lists I've been running can go through up to 5 counterspells, but you do need to hit a few land drops. What's great is when you have a Ruby out then almost all non mana sources / rituals are threats. That's the key to my approach.

Unfortunately it's hard to maintain consistency with the lands. I suppose the spirit guides could be reduced in favor of some lands. This would make the deck likely a 1/2 turn to 1 turn slower, but the payoff is that you would do better Vs the force of will decks, as you can recover faster.

Edit: I regularly talk to vieko on slack, mostly about this deck these days. If you're interested just pm me with your email and I'll add you.

Cool, thanks.

Oh I'm sold 100% on Ruby Medallion, no doubt. It's what makes the payoff/threats in the deck so much better. The power level with PiF, RtS, and HUF is enough on its own to include 4.

I don't think the Simians can be cut, for the simple reason that if the mana runs out to resolve a Reforge we need free mana to continue the chain. If we haven't played a land that can help, but having 8 other free mana sources (SSG/Petal) seems critical to me. I think the place to cut for lands is Helm of Awakening.

EDIT: Whatever happened to Wildfire? I think having some sort of haymaker disruption seems really strong. Blood Moon/Chalice have been mentioned but Wildfire seems as good, if not better. Doing a search for uncounterable red spells ATM...I messed around with Obliterate at one point in time

i never got to test wildfire. laziness i suppose.

the current list i'm trying has cut the helms in exchange for chandras and squeezing in some extra lands. hazoret's still has ~12-15 hits including chandra. i do agree about the spirit guide working with reforge, however it's just not as explosive without 8 reduction. you would need to have the ruby already in play when you cast reforge in order for spirit guide to really do anything great.

i think my recommendation for at least this iteration of the deck is that it should aim for a turn 3-4 win with the ability to win on turn 1 with some huge luck. this will give you some opportunities to get FoW'd, discarded, thalia etc.

it's also pretty easy to take this list and just find 1 slot for the 4th spirit guide. probably an act on impulse, past in flames, or 1 desperate ritual. totally up to you. spirit guide is also much better for playing turn 1 berserker vs storm/reanimator or whatever deck you think it would prey upon.

i usually use goldfish links for the deck, but i'll post here to keep a mental note as that link's list keeps changing daily.


12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

1 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose

3 Past in Flames
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
3 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
2 Magma Jet
1 Past in Flames
1 Rending Volley
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony


the haymaker cards that would support this list well with chandra would be wildfire and jokulhaups. both are pretty easy to cast with chandra's RR ability.

Some good updates with the deck. Will let vieko update.

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Originally Posted by 10leej

I actually really like this list. Was there any consideration something like Commune with Lava? or is that too mana intensive? I haven't tried it in legacy, but it's done well enough in modern.

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Just an update here. We've tested this card and it's quite good. It does push the deck to play, LED, which is never a bad thing.

Hazoret's is now more likely a 1-2 of, and most of the lists we've been testing are just running 4 medallions, relying on led, seething song and rite of flame. The Medallion is still a huge edge, but the deck can win more consistently when it doesn't draw one than in prior versions just running desperate ritual, song and manamorphose.

Still need to do more testing but am quite happy with list right now.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

Just an update here. We've tested this card and it's quite good. It does push the deck to play, LED, which is never a bad thing.

Hazoret's is now more likely a 1-2 of, and most of the lists we've been testing are just running 4 medallions, relying on led, seething song and rite of flame. The Medallion is still a huge edge, but the deck can win more consistently when it doesn't draw one than in prior versions just running desperate ritual, song and manamorphose.

Still need to do more testing but am quite happy with list right now.

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I'm very happy with the list. Consistently getting 3-2s with a handful of 4-1s and ALMOST 5-0 twice. The learning curve is similar to TES / ANT. I would say we are about a week away from landing 5-0s on MTGO and putting down some primers for everyone :)

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Originally Posted by vieko

I'm very happy with the list. Consistently getting 3-2s with a handful of 4-1s and ALMOST 5-0 twice. The learning curve is similar to TES / ANT. I would say we are about a week away from landing 5-0s on MTGO and putting down some primers for everyone :)

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I played against you twice on MTGO, vieko. I'm "Pathy" on MTGO.

I think I beat you once with Trinispheres/Chalices, and then the next match you broke through the lock with anti-hate in G3.

I have to say the deck seems pretty fast and resilient. Do you think it's better than ANT?

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Originally Posted by MGB

I played against you twice on MTGO, vieko. I'm "Pathy" on MTGO.

I think I beat you once with Trinispheres/Chalices, and then the next match you broke through the lock with anti-hate in G3.

I have to say the deck seems pretty fast and resilient. Do you think it's better than ANT?

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YOU DID INDEED! It is very resilient, with higher redundancy than TES / ANT, bit slower than TES, bit faster than ANT, with some angles / tricks the other storm decks don't have access to... I believe this could be (one day) on par with other Storm variants.

To our matchup: tax effects are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Storm is by far the hardest matchup to navigate against followed by a fast Reanimator (Depths / BR). Leovold... Leovold... can be an issue sometimes but nothing a bazzilion Goblins won't absolutely wreck. Ethersworn Canonist is the creature I like seen the least (we've got answers for you lady). Control decks are easier to handle with this list than with other Storm variants if only because we often have more aggression than they have counters. For example, I won against an opponent holding double Flusterstorm, Pierce, Force, double Stifle (peeked with Probe). In a different occasion, won after Surgical, Snapcaster into Surgical, Force, Daze, Daze... Most wins come in the form of Tendrils or Goblin War Strike.

Most of my loses have been against myself :) I've made some top-shelf / laughable mistakes seeeeeveral times! Mistercakes and I have tweaked this list SO much, it's been an ever changing learning curve... probably the reason I'm so hooked on this monster right now.

Anyways, looking forward to playing against you again soon "Pathy"!

EDITED: Speaking of lists, here's my latest (mistercakes is working on a slightly different approach):


UNDYING STORM 3.1

14 LAND
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

10 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Desperate Ritual

8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

8 EXILE / PLAY
3 Commune with Lava
3 Act on Impulse
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury

4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose

4 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish

4 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion

1 DISRUPT / DRAW
1 Reforge the Soul

1 FLASHBACK
1 Past in Flames

1 STORM
1 Empty the Warrens

1 COPY
1 Reverberate


SIDEBOARD
2 Abrade
2 Defense Grid
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot

How critical is LED? I have all of the cards, or can get them, except for LED. Does it just make the deck a turn slower without it?

Call me crazy, but is Brain Freeze worth testing? The deck would naturally have to lean on Past in Flames much more, but dumping 15-18 cards into your graveyard seems like it would almost assuredly give you enough material to win with PiF.

EDIT: What role does Reverberate play in the deck? Are you simply copying a payoff spell like HUF/Act on Impulse?

hiya.

i think with vieko's commune version you do need LED's. i haven't really gotten too much into that version, other than goldfishing it at home.

i've been going in a slightly different direction with the deck. i'll answer your questions then post my latest version.

"How critical is LED? I have all of the cards, or can get them, except for LED. Does it just make the deck a turn slower without it?

Call me crazy, but is Brain Freeze worth testing? The deck would naturally have to lean on Past in Flames much more, but dumping 15-18 cards into your graveyard seems like it would almost assuredly give you enough material to win with PiF.

EDIT: What role does Reverberate play in the deck? Are you simply copying a payoff spell like HUF/Act on Impulse?"

LED is not critical in every version, but in a AoI/Commune version, it should be in there. the deck is not necessarily a turn slower. i'd say both versions are turn 2-3 decks that can win on turn 1.

I'm not sure brain freeze is really necessary, it seems like it's doing mostly what gifts ungiven would do. generally the deck can feed itself enough.

Reverberate is a 1 of, which can also be that 1RR guy that also forks a spell. he's in there just as a random goodstuff card that can copy a powerful spell, copy countermagic etc. it's by no means necessary and i've only been testing it, but i've never drawn it yet.

here's my latest list:


//lands
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

//ramp
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion

//big spells
4 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
4 burning wish
4 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames

//flex spots
2 magma jet

//sideboard
3 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
3 scab-clan berserker
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames


sideboard is pretty flexible. berserker is very good vs storm, and decent vs cantrip decks. grids are great. could go to 4 on either one, especially if you don't like tormod's crypt. crypt is in there for ANT and obviously reanimator. the others are wish targets. with this list don't be afraid to side out a reforge and/or hazoret's as they become pretty useful wish targets. if i had room for another slot i'd probably consider running 1 hazoret's in the sb (or 1 wheel, but i like the miracle ability so i'd prefer to keep 4).

i would also consider fiery confluence in the main/sideboard depending on metagame. i might have to drop 1 crypt for one just b/c it's great to kill goblins/elves/stompy decks pretty easily. if your local metagame doesn't play that much storm, you can probably even consider blood moon for those 3 slots. it's another must counter for many decks and it can cripple them.

the major draw back of this version is that it is a little weak to leovold. chandra can kill it, which is nice, but he turns off manamorphose draw and reforge, which is quite powerful in this list. the other list more or less ignores leovold b/c of all the exile style "draw" effects. you can also consider sb rending volley if there's a lot of leovold decks.

i like this version b/c it has 6 maindeck outs to creatures and chandra is a pretty strong threat on her own. it's pretty easy to turn 1 her in this deck. she also gets you to 5/6 mana very easily with her +1: RR ability. if you don't like magma jet then the flex spots are probably:

a maindeck grapeshot, a maindeck empty the warrens, desperate ritual, fiery confluence.


if you have other questions let me know.

Thanks for that. I like Magma Jet over Reverberate for sure. This is where I ended up for a rough list:

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Burning Wish
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Desperate Ritual
4x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
3x Empty the Warrens
2x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
3x Act on Impulse
4x Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x By Force
1x Pyroclasm
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Pyroblast
3x Lightning Bolt

This is where I will start testing. Again, very strong emphasis on EtW. I waffle back and forth on multiple copies of Past in Flames maindeck (its so much better when drawn instead of tutored!) I really think PiF is the resiliency plan, with the primary plan of just blasting a big Warrens, maybe BW-ing into War Strike or Grapeshot to finish off. Another great point of resiliency is that Tendrils for 4-5 can gain us multiple turns to rebuild. I would definitely play that angle against decks where I know I will need to slog through multiple angles of interaction. Against decks that are goldfishing (storm, sneak and show, elves, etc.) I think a turn 1-2 big warrens is really the only thing that will fight through that (barring a nut draw into Tendrils ftw.)

I really need to just settle into a list and play 15-20 games with it so I can get beyond theory-crafting.

I'd highly recommend at least 15 lands. The 4 probes don't really make up for the 2 lands. Maybe cut 1 AoI.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

I'd highly recommend at least 15 lands. The 4 probes don't really make up for the 2 lands. Maybe cut 1 AoI.

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Easy-peasy, thanks for the suggestion. Will drop 1 AoI for an 11th Mountain.

I'll prob run my list tonight at my local. I also brought elves and miracles in case I audible.

Will try to take some notes and provide a decent report.

Nice! I ordered all of the missing cards I needed to flesh this out in paper. I have it loaded on Magic Workstation as well, which is easier but less reliable for actual data.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Nice! I ordered all of the missing cards I needed to flesh this out in paper. I have it loaded on Magic Workstation as well, which is easier but less reliable for actual data.

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I've been down the path you are about to embark on before so, here's a few notes to keep in mind:

• Two Hazorets means double the chances of whiffing with it: Haz is a fantastic card to find early and force your opponent to counter. If they don't counter it, it tends to whiff early in the game (lands) so be ready for the possibility and plan accordingly (you'll be tapped out for a turn). It truly shines after your opponent has ran out of answers (turn 4-5), you've got a solid manabase in play and you happen to top it.
• LED is almost a must-have when running 3-4 Act on Impulse. It makes AoI exponentially better. If you don't have access to LEDs, my suggesting would be to drop the AoI to a max of 2 copies and bump up the number of Past in Flames to 3.
• Triple Empty is awesome for most matches BUT Storm... just be aware of this... if you have a line to early Goblin pressure: take it and hope for that Wish into Goblin War Strike.
• I would swap Lightning Bolt for Rending Volley or Abrade as either deals with: Cannonist, Leovold, Teeg, DRS, Thalia, Scooze... Abrade also handles: 3Balls, Spheres, Cages, etc. I like Abrade best because it gives me instant solutions postboard and leaves room for wishable answers (By Force / Pyroclasm / Cave-In)
• If there's Storm in your meta: Scab-Clan Berserker is (so far) the best answer to them. Cannot stress enough how good this girl is!

Good luck.

Thanks for the response! I will definitely trade into/buy the scab clans. I get the uncounterable clause of Rending Volley, and I have them so that seems fine. Bolt going to the dome isn't nothing either however, especially if you have a big PiF chain going. The list of creatures you mentioned are all also dealt with by Bolt (with the possible exception of Scooze if its big enough.) Abrade does two things, but both of them inefficiently. I'll have to do testing, I'm not sold yet (sorry!) I'll definitely drop the AoI count.

Went 2-2 tonight. Beat ANT and DNT. lost to bant with kotr and dark depths, and 4 color control.

Full report tomorrow.

Mengucci posted a video today playing against mono red storm, it was you?

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