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Your experience of some disruption/a few creatures being better than all-in is the same as mine. If you can blast out 12 power turn 1 that can get there, but i think patience is rewarded if you can't do that. Just getting 1-2 creatures isn't enough unless you've attacked their hand already.
I might maindeck the Libraries, cutting 2 slots somewhere. I think it could be very good to set up explosive plays. I'm still on 18 lands so the 2 for library isn't an issue.
Don’t get me wrong, the all-in plays are still the best (at least with the 14 lands + petal version). It’s just that you can’t always mulligan to a draw with multiple big creatures on turn 1.
Sylvan library is kind of a nice idea since this deck can pay life for it more than most, though.
The two biggest problems I always ran into with this deck were I wanted U and R for Faithless Looting and Careful Study, but also Black for Amalgam and Bloodghast, and Green for Vengevine. If there was a good second version of either looting or study in either color this would get a lot easier.
I think there is a RUG Hollow-Vine deck posted on here somewhere that attempts to correct the 'need both Looting and Study' conundrum. It drops the black creatures and discard, which is a completely different approach. Once you have blue you're looking at stack interaction for disruption rather than discard. For me, I'll always prefer discard over blue stack-based interaction because it can be proactive. For an agro deck, being proactive is fairly important. I also think that once you dip into blue and red strongly the Phoenix deck is likely a better avenue. I would take any sort of looting effect in black or green, but I don't think it would get printed. It has become solidly a red mechanic. So I have to settle for Sylvan Library and Stinkweed Imp. The red splash is still on the table for Looting, Flamewake Phoenix, and the PFire engine.
EDIT: Found it
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...UG-Hollow-Vine
I have a long and unhealthy obsession with Vengevine in Legacy and I have tried to make it viable countless times over the years. Recently I was playing Commander, and as I cast Nostalig Dreams I suddenly get the realization that it has the potential to be outright broken with Vengevine and Hollow One. I haven't had much time to play recently, so I unfortunately haven't put this thesis to the test. However, this was what I quickly put down on paper for me to return to at some point. Thought you guys and gals could maybe do something with it:
Creature (24)
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Gravecrawler
4x Hollow One
4x Putrid Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
Land (17)
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (15)
4x Buried Alive
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Nostalgic Dreams
3x Thoughtseize
Instant (4)
4x Dark Ritual
I was eyeing Nostalgic Dreams as well because you can discard Hollow ones and then get them right back, making them free. It's definitely something to keep an eye out for. I think if that is the route to take then Buried Alive isn't really necessary. Big discussion earlier in the thread about DR/BA and I've come to the conclusion that it takes up too many slots, not allowing for interaction once you cram all the dudes you need in there. I'm currently on Stinkweed Imp + Gurmag Angler (which is the fairest way to play those 2 cards, lol) and it has been really great. I'm tempted to go up to a 3rd Gurmag.
I think Street Wraith is something that could work with the Buried Alive plan, but I found it incredibly underwhelming. I didn't want my SW's to be dependent on timing, so If I had SW but no HO's I would wait on playing them. I don't like the feeling of waiting for the right timing with cards like that, I want to be pressuring my opponent. I have found that landing a PimP or Troll is the best way to cheat HO's into play, just discarding for value (Vines, Ghasts, Rootwallas, Therapies, extra lands) and then firing off the HO's.
Putrid Imp = Pimp
Hollow One = HO
I officially request that this deck be renamed "Pimpin' Tha Ho's"
Could very well be that BA + DR is not the place to. But the prostepct of discarding some number og Vengevine and picking up H1's and casting them all are mount-wateringQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
EDIT: SW is also disgusting with ND, which is why I opted for them.
Good catch with ND + Wraiths. You can discard them, get them back, draw more cards, then enable Hollow Ones (maybe even drawing into a few.) I really like this interaction. It supercharges the graveyard interactions all in one turn, which I think is the key to making this deck work. I think I'll pick up a few ND's.
I still think the DR/BA probably needs to be a Thoughtseize/Therapy/Brutality/Decay/AssTrophy. Having anti-combo plays in the main will be pretty critical.
EDIT:Nostalgic Dreams for reference.
EDIT #2:Restless Dreams possibly better? Only does creatures, but is cheaper and much easier to cast at B than GG.
So how would you set up a ND-build?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I think Restless Dreams is probably better, which I was confusing with Nostalgic Dreams. The GG I think is a deal-breaker unless you play something like Birds of Paradise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
4x Putrid Imp
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Bloodghast
4x Vengevine
4x Hollow One
4x Street Wraith
4x Lotleth Troll
2x Gurmag Angler
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Restless Dreams
18x Lands
Alternatively the Gurmags and Decays could become Gravecrawler x4 and some number of lands be Mutavault. I am a little wary of switching from Sickening Dreams, just because I have really liked the utility from that card. EDIT: Restless works very well with Stinkweed Imp, getting back a pair of dorks to trigger vengevines.
Restless Dreams definitely looks better!! Good find. However, I am not sold on Bloodghast in this deck. IMO Ghast needs to be in a grindy, value GY strategy. This decks wants to be more of a 'one big explosive turn'-deck I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
EDIT: After fidgetting a bit around with the previous list, this would be my 'new' starting point:
Land (18)
2x Badlands
3x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
Creature (24)
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Gravecrawler
4x Hollow One
4x Putrid Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
Sorcery (16)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
4x Faithless Looting
3x Restless Dreams
3x Thoughtseize
Instant (2)
2x Abrupt Decay
Free 2/1's, sometimes with haste, has a tendency to make the deck pretty explosive. If there was a better creature I'd definitely play it. I am playing Stinkweed Imp as well, so I get free Bloodghasts pretty often. It rewards mid-late game lands that would otherwise be dead. I can understand using Gravecrawler instead because you aren't using Stinkweeds. However, I really think you need more zombies to make Gravecrawler work, probably at a minimum a set of Trolls and 1-2 Mutavaults. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, Carrion Feeder can be pretty good with Gravecrawler, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
Last thought: I'm fairly certain that Stinkweed Imp will be a necessary evil, if only to shore up the Dark Depths matchups.
You plan is to chump forever with stinky or?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Gravecrawler is much better with Vengevine, but getting the # of zombies right is always tough. This list, as stated, is a starting point and by no means final.
EDIT: I actually think I'm gonna take a page out of the Modern Hollow One deck and play Insolent Neonate over Gravecrawler
You're still way short on zombies. I think Gravecrawler is going to disappoint you.
Yes, chumping with Stinky, and doing it every turn by dredging. It should feed me Bloodghasts to put pressure on while they attack, too.
Restless getting dazed would be gg right? In this all in version I imagine chancellor of the annex could be good.
It looks like this list is going 2 ways:
1) Explosive all-in turn 1 list: Tireless Tribe & Putrid Imp, multicolor manabase, Lotus Petal, many creatures and few spells. SB strategy for this would need to be defense against gravehate, because you're too committed to the interactions to board into a fair deck.
2) Grindier list. GB-based, more stable manabase, more disruption or recursion. SB strategy could be boarding out grave stuff for interactive stuff.
For the grindy version, zombie tribal seems appealing. You get the protection of Caverns combined with sources of card advantage.
//Creatures: 36
4 Putrid Imp
4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
//Spells: 7
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
//Lands: 17
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
//Sideboard: 15
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Sickening Dreams
3 Asylum Visitor
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
Cryptbreaker provides cheap card draw and a backup discard outlet.
Stinkweed Imp should help dig into more gas over the course of the game and can also be cast to block and kill enemy threats. Stitcher's Supplier could work as a cheaper zombie version, but the 1/1 body doesn't do much beyond helping draw cards with Cryptbreaker, triggering Vengevine and pitching to Carrion Feeder.
Bloodghast seemed like the weakest creature and the easiest cut. It might be correct to cut some Hollow Ones instead because it's harder to support without Tireless Tribe, while Stinkweed Imp/Prized Amalgam pushes me towards wanting more graveyard recursion. Maybe something else could be cut for Bloodghasts.
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For the all-in version, Restless Dreams seems much worse than Tireless Tribe. You need X legal targets in the graveyard when you announce casting the spell, before you discard X cards for the cost. It will almost never happen on turn 1. How will anything get in the yard?
Magical Xmas Land scenario: Street Wraith + Hollow One + Restless Dreams (3-card combo). Cycle 1 Street Wraith. Cast Dreams with X=1 on Street Wraith, discarding Vengevine or Bloodghast or Rootwalla. Cycle Street Wraith again. Cast Hollow One for 0 mana (3 cards discarded). If you have a second Hollow One, you could get Vengevine back for free, but that's rarely going to happen.
Is that worth playing Dreams? I just don't see the value. Tireless Tribe looks so much better for the all-in version.
//Creatures: 36
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Carrion Feeder
3 Gravecrawler
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
//Spells: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
//Mana: 18
4 Lotus Petal
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
//Sideboard:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Big Game Hunter
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
The sideboard is still a mess. I'm assuming we lose most to combo (Reanimator and SneakShow are popular) and graveyard hate. The sideboard is built with those matches in mind. If other things become worse matchups, the board needs to be adjusted.
The all-in version doesn’t just lose to combo, you have discard and a fast clock and big game hunter can kill emrakul at instant speed. Miracles is probably a much worse matchup, they can counter your discard outlet, kill it if you don’t go off t1, swords your hollow ones and vines, and terminus to fuck you over.
I missed the nuance of Restless Dreams. It's garbage. If I could discard the same creatures I target to return it would be insane, but as you say the targets have to be legal before casting (and discarding is part of the cost.) Bummer. Nostalgic Dreams would be the same. Both unplayable I think. I'll stick to Sickening Dreams, but I wouldn't play it sideboard. It's a maindeck discard outlet. Post-board it could stay in against Young Pyromancer and Elves, but beyond that I don't like the card disadvantage as a 'fair' card.
I think the strength of a deck like this is it's ability to switch from graveyard dependent g1 into a 'fair' rock deck sideboard. People board in grave hate that doesn't really blow us out like it would a traditional dredge deck. The sideboard strategy is going to be absolutely critical to whether this deck can really win matches. For now I'm planning on boarding out Stinkweed Imps/Sickening Dreams (because all-in on the graveyard isn't great) for Sylvan Library, Hymns, Bitterblossom, and Liliana TLH against control decks like Miracles/Grixis Control. Scavenging Ooze comes in against anything that is leaning on Surgical for their graveyard interaction, so slow-rolling Scooze before Vengevine-ing and Bloodghast-ing is key. Edicts, Scooze, and Faeries come in against Reanimator/traditional Dredge/Lands/Turbo Depths.
I think the flexible cards for my approach are the targeted discards and Stinkys. I don't want to sideboard too much, but enough to really blunt the edge of grave hate.
Also, FTW, I'd play fragmentize or maybe abrupt decay over nature's claim in your sideboard. I get that claim is easier to cast, but you really don't want your opponent gaining life.
Interestingly, I think the all-in version can kind of work around grave hate. Early hollow ones backed up by hardcast amalgams have won games for me when my opponent clearly just mulled to find grave hate. I'm trying out asylum visitor in the board to support this plan and to have something else that eats removal. It can also get you a card before it dies if your opponent is tapped out and you madness it, which can be very relevant against control.
Good point. I had Fragmentize in earlier versions for that reason. I put Nature's Claim in that one because of the manabase. Fetchlands improve Bloodghast. Basic swamp is good in some matches. I don't want to fetch turn 1 Scrubland unless the hand has Tireless Tribe and no other white source, because green mana is useful more often. That tilted me towards Claim. Maybe it's better to just play all rainbow lands in the all-in version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkfathom
Rainbow land pros:
-Easier to support colored costs for sideboard cards: Fragmentize, Ingot Chewer (a 1cc answer to Chalice), Abrupt Decay..
-Dodges Stifle
-Opponent could confuse you for Dredge and concede.
Rainbow land cons:
- Bloodghast is worse without fetchlands
- No basics to get vs Assassin's Trophy, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter...
- Scoop to nonbasic hate
Re: Sickening Dreams
Game 1 it's pretty bad against spell-based decks, just a slow discard outlet. It has anti-synergy with any weenies you have out and Basking Rootwalla (Rootwalla will enter play before Dreams resolves, then die). It's much better against aggro, hatebears or tokens, when you're using it both to discard and kill things.
Both pre- and post-board it's great against Death and Taxes and Soldier Stompy, which rely on creature-based disruption like Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and Sanctum Prelate. You don't have to discard your whole hand. X=1 or X=2 are valid modes. You can use it to kill things, enable Hollow Ones, or bait gravehate with only 1-2 guys in the bin.
If you play it main, I'd leave it in for more matches. Without it, we need some other removal for hatebears. Massacre or Pyroclasm or Marsh Casualties or Dread of Night?
For the all-in version with rainbow mana, what about some Firestorms SB? It cheaply answers hatebears, but it does need X legal targets (including you and opponent).
What would you put in the board to help against Miracles? I put 4 Cavern of Souls maindeck to fight counters and Carrion Feeders to fight Swords and Terminus. Other than more discard, I couldn't think of much else.