[OLD] UGw Threshold

I used to run mental note myself, but I found that I really wanted more card selection in my cantrips, so I made the switch to portent. I followed this up by adding in predict as a 3-of, since it can provide great card advantage late game and quick threshold (since I don't have note) early game.

I know this debate (i.e. portent vs. predict vs. mental note) has been beaten to death in past posts/threads, but I wanted to chime in with my testing results. The way I play this deck is very controllish. This may have a lot to do with the number of aggro decks in my area, against which I have no choice but to play as a control deck. Because of this I've found that quick threshold is less important than more late-game control/stability. Thus, portent over mental note. These circumstances also make mystic enforcer attractive, since I go late in the game and never have trouble playing him.

Bardo, you seem to have a more aggro-control build, or at least play the deck in that way, compared to myself. Considering this, would you still suggest I run mental notes?

(by the way, this question isn't really just for Bardo, I just wanted to ask him personally since he's had so much experience with this deck)

In what I have found recently, and I think Nightmare's recent results confirm this, is that Mental Note has become more integral to this deck due to the implementation of Jotun Grunt. Not only is he a 4/4 Tormod's Crypt in the mirror, but several Fish varients, viable only due to his inclusion, are popping up in some large tournament slots.

The whole reason I posed the original question to Bardo is due to the fact that the majority of my experience playing the deck eschewed Mental Note due to my own asthetic reasons.

Now that I am avidly for it's current inclusion, I needed some insight into the viability of the singletons I had been previously using without worry. I think the compromises Nightmare made at TML allow the maintaining of Threshold, while still viably allowing both the card selection needed to support the unique cards, and the deck's velocity.

I think the whole MN vs Predict thing is now settled and done now that Grunt has arrived. He tools builds without MN, period.

Yeah, but an early mental note can feed Grunt as well. I still think it comes down to whether you want a more controlish version or aggro. If you want the first, predict, if you want the second, mental note.

I'm just curious, I hardly see grunt anywhere maindeck. Once you hit SB, I think crypt is clearly better for most decks (excluding perhaps homebrew, or MAYBE the mirror). Does your meta have a lot of grunting? Does this deck want to run Grunt? It seems like a horrible idea main, as in many matches he eats your own graveyard or is a dead card.

Just here to post some testing results:

I did quite a bit of testing last night against some random decks (not tier1 decks, since I tend to see randomness more often) and I found that far too often engineered explosives was not the card I wanted. Frequently I'd be facing a large (exalted angel-sized) creature, which EE was unable to blow up. Other times I'd fail to counter a key artifact or enchantment that was along the same cost as the creatures I wanted to save (one game I was even owned by some flying chump wearing two cranial platings, while I attack with two werebears). Then of course there are the times when what I really need is a counterspell (wrath of god sucks), but don't have it.

In short, I wasn't too impressed during my testing. So I switched out the two EE for echoing truth and tested some matchups again, and wow! Echoing truth acted as a removal spell (however temporary) to get a big creature out of the way so I could attack freely. It bounced humility and vedalken shackles at opportune times, allowing me again to swing for the win. It also pops enforcers or bears back to my hand before wrath resolves (unfortunately, I never got to play against wrath with truth in my deck).

My point is, echoing truth is weak as creature removal. It's weak as an end-of-turn trick. It's weak as artifact and enchantment removal, and it's weak as a counterspell. But just that it can act as all of those things over the course of a game has made it a great option in my eyes. Feel free to call me an idiot for playing that card maindeck, but as long as I continue to get positive testing results from it I think it'll stay in my build.

As for the mental notes to combat grunts: I don't see enough grunts to warrant that switch yet, but I'll be looking out for it.

You guys might have a meta where it takes a while for things to catch on.. No offense at all. But Grunt is the most format impacting card in the legacy pool for some time now. Ravnica may have given us good cards but Grunt is of par with Confidant on the powerscale. He's great in Thresh, he's better against it. If no ones playing them in your meta bust him out cause he's a real asskicker. But be prepared to take him down too.

Jotun Grunt doesn't make Mental Note any better. If my opponent is playing Jotun Grunt, I want to be able to find an answer to it, which Mental Note is extremely poor at.

That aside, Jotun Grunt is hardly a format-defining card, anyway. It's just another decent, playable card with more than its share of hype surrounding it.

Since people are suggesting suboptimal cards like Reprisal and Threads of Disloyalty to deal with problem creatures, bc apparently, 4 Swords and 14 cantrips isn't enough, has anyone considered Psionic Blast.

I can't believe I'm suggesting it, I've never been too big a fan of the card in Fairie Stompy. But it does act as removal, and when you have nothing to remove, it's a very good win condition. At worst, it pitches to Force.

I've thought about psionic blast, but was never fond of the idea of a 3-mana removal spell that hurts you. Against aggro, where removal is possibly most needed, it seems fairly risky (due to damage and cost).

That's why I love echoing truth: no damage to you, 2-cc, tempo advantage, and can work on artifacts and enchantments if need be.

If you have troubles against creatures, I suggest you use the red splash instead of the white. Lighning Bolt, magma jet and Fire/Ice is good here, Isochron Scepter might also work.

The red splash is simply better against creatures and are more aggro-oriented. StP gives you opponenet livepoints + it cannot shoot to the dome.

The white splash have better games vs. control and combo.

I guess you already know this, but there is no point in adding more removal to the white splash, as the red will do the job just as well. Also both splashes might be the way to go.

I used to play the red version instead of the white, but over time I liked it less and less. Yeah, it's better against goblins and random aggro, but weaker against more mid-range aggro and aggro control (as in angel stompy). I made the switch when I realized how much this deck wanted StP. After all, threshed gooses and bears wreck creatures within the range of fire and magma jet. But, leaving my precious 8-burn spell suite behind (I'll miss you bolt), I'm now in a position of wanting a tad more removal.

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Originally Posted by lillelassie

If you have troubles against creatures, I suggest you use the red splash instead of the white. Lighning Bolt, magma jet and Fire/Ice is good here, Isochron Scepter might also work.

The red splash is simply better against creatures and are more aggro-oriented. StP gives you opponenet livepoints + it cannot shoot to the dome.

The white splash have better games vs. control and combo.

I guess you already know this, but there is no point in adding more removal to the white splash, as the red will do the job just as well. Also both splashes might be the way to go.

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But the Red splash hasn't a spell for the hated Grunt, where White at least has StP.

We have three colors to work with and we still can't find any removal beyond StP, lol.

White>red so going back to red isn't the answer.

How about Jitte, the removal of choice for every nonred deck out there, it lets our beaters win even without threshold. Two Jitte counters with counter backup and our guys are unstoppable, even without any cards in the graveyard.

Jitte can't attach to a third of our creatures, though. Werebear and enforcer (if you even run any) are its only wielders. And then nantuko monastery if you run them, but just not enough.

The only builds I've seen that run Jittes were Krutil's buld and Bardo's Witch-Mat Thresh... then you run Jittes, but they still suck in Thresh.

I say this because only 6 creatures with live through combat. Those 6 creatures are usually Bears and Enforcers. Now if you want some kind of consistent answer to things like Grunt, just run more Removal.

If you want to stick to white you could play the semi-StP in Condemn as an additional option. Although it doesn´t kill creatures on the defense, it only cost one mana. It´s the only removal-spell I find worthy maindecking.

I personally thought Reprisal is pretty sexy tech. I suppose Condemn works too. Vedalken Shackles might work, since a majority of the lands are Islands.

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Originally Posted by Ob Freely

The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.

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In the abstract, I agree completely. From my own point of view, it's one of those "funny numbers" things that just feels right after several hundred games with the deck. But it looks shifty.

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Bardo, you seem to have a more aggro-control build, or at least play the deck in that way, compared to myself. Considering this, would you still suggest I run mental notes?

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I think you should run whatever gives you the best results. My build was designed to push the aggro aspect of Threshold, so I don't have to worry about controlling the late game as much, since, ideally, I wouldn't find myself there.

But I've said this before and I'll say it again: I don't think there is any one holy and correct configuration of the deck that is "the best." There are just some that are better than others, but the deck should be fluid and run certain cards for an anticipated metagame or for the element of well-reasoned surprise (maindeck Stifle, for instance).

I prefer the aggro-version of the deck, because given the opportunity, I'd much rather scout, hang out with friends, and--location permitting--get a beer and a shot of Wild Turkey, than slug it out with more turns than I really need to win. The question here is: does a more "control-oriented" build contribute to winning more? I don't honestly think it does, given a "mixed" field--where aggro, combo and control are represented. I'm trying to find the version that best makes this happen without making painful sacrifices against my already favorable match-ups.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

In what I have found recently, and I think Nightmare's recent results confirm this, is that Mental Note has become more integral to this deck due to the implementation of Jotun Grunt. Not only is he a 4/4 Tormod's Crypt in the mirror, but several Fish varients, viable only due to his inclusion, are popping up in some large tournament slots.

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Originally Posted by Ob Freely

Jotun Grunt is hardly a format-defining card, anyway. It's just another decent, playable card with more than its share of hype surrounding it.

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Yep, the hype is overdone. It's a good card, but arguments for and against Mental Note vis-a-vis Grunt are pointless. It can really go either way.

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Since people are suggesting suboptimal cards like Reprisal and Threads of Disloyalty to deal with problem creatures, bc apparently, 4 Swords and 14 cantrips isn't enough, has anyone considered Psionic Blast.

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I had double Psionic Blasts in earlier builds. At best, it was overkill; at worst, the 3cc cost was too much. But it was always a nice surprise that would bring a smile to at least one player at the table. :)

Re: Reprisal. Do we really need this? 4 StP seems enough, whether or not you go the EE-route. With any more, you're not really playing up the aggro part of the deck and are playing something else. It's also too situational, like if you need to kill MoR, a Tog on defense, etc.

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Originally Posted by Anti-American

The only builds I've seen that run Jittes were Krutil's buld and Bardo's Witch-Mat Thresh... then you run Jittes, but they still suck in Thresh.

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Even in Witch-Maw, it's kinda crap, for the obvious reason. All of the weilders are either flimsy attackers (Bob + Mage) or really overkill again (Werebear, Enforcer). Chalk up "Jitte + Thresh" as an interesting idea that isn't. ;) It would probaby be better if Thresh were Standard-legal and you could "disenchant" opposing copies (Jitte isn't exactly a format-defining card in Legacy) or drop it as an occasional bomb. But the risk of tempo-loss (removal in response to the equipping), in a tempo-exploiting deck, seems counterproductive.

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I personally thought Reprisal is pretty sexy tech. I suppose Condemn works too. Vedalken Shackles might work, since a majority of the lands are Islands.

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I think these are all good ideas, but it would be a different deck. For one, you'd need to increase the land count to hit 3 mana on turn 3 and would have gain advantage over aggro at the expense of the combo match-up. For instance, Shackles or Threads do little in repsonse to a Brain Freeze for 51. ;) I'm not sold.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Yep, the hype is overdone. It's a good card, but arguments for and against Mental Note vis-a-vis Grunt are pointless. It can really go either way.

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I agree about Mental Note, but not about the hype. Grunt is insane in the mirror for several reasons. It can't be needled. It is as large or larger than every other creature naturally, and can easily decrease the size of opposing creatures. If played in conjunction with Meddling Mage naming Swords, can neutralize your opponent's entire creature base. Can completely stop Ichorid,(rare, I know) Threshold's second-worst matchup, in two turns. First, stuff Wonder, block Ichorids, then the rest of their creatures. They also only have Needle to stop graveyard hate, so Crypt is unviable. Whereas they have literally no creature removal.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

RE:Reprisal. Do we really need this? 4 StP seems enough, whether or not you go the EE-route. With any more, you're not really playing up the aggro part of the deck and are playing something else. It's also too situational, like if you need to kill MoR, a Tog on defense, etc.

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No, I don't think it is needed. But, before I decided this, I did playtest it extensively, and found it to be the best of the spot removal available to the White version.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

I think these are all good ideas, but it would be a different deck. For one, you'd need to increase the land count to hit 3 mana on turn 3 and would have gain advantage over aggro at the expense of the combo match-up. For instance, Shackles or Threads do little in repsonse to a Brain Freeze for 51. ;) I'm not sold.

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Agree in entirety, but I think your example is wrong. I don't think anyone seriously considered using any of these cards in the main deck. And I would hope that they did not side them in against Solidarity.

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Originally Posted by Ob Freely
The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.


In the abstract, I agree completely. From my own point of view, it's one of those "funny numbers" things that just feels right after several hundred games with the deck. But it looks shifty.


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Bardo, you seem to have a more aggro-control build, or at least play the deck in that way, compared to myself. Considering this, would you still suggest I run mental notes?

I think you should run whatever gives you the best results. My build was designed to push the aggro aspect of Threshold, so I don't have to worry about controlling the late game as much, since, ideally, I wouldn't find myself there.

But I've said this before and I'll say it again: I don't think there is any one holy and correct configuration of the deck that is "the best." There are just some that are better than others, but the deck should be fluid and run certain cards for an anticipated metagame or for the element of well-reasoned surprise (maindeck Stifle, for instance).

I prefer the aggro-version of the deck, because given the opportunity, I'd much rather scout, hang out with friends, and--location permitting--get a beer and a shot of Wild Turkey, than slug it out with more turns than I really need to win. The question here is: does a more "control-oriented" build contribute to winning more? I don't honestly think it does, given a "mixed" field--where aggro, combo and control are represented. I'm trying to find the version that best makes this happen without making painful sacrifices against my already favorable match-ups.

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The only problems I had with the more controlish versions were the fact I tapped out to find anwers at late game, and tapped out because of the chain of cantrips I used to find those answers. But other than that, the only losses I have ever had... ever, was to Helmut Summersberger 4c Thresh... Naming Swords with Meddling Mage is tech. That gave me trouble Game 1. Games 2 and 3 were so much better for me because of Monastery and Grunt.

I have never had any trouble with the Mental Note version... Unless they brought the game all the way to Midgame. The way I play the Mental Note Version is like 5/3... I played it too much like Aggro/Prison, Counters being my Time Walks midgame and Chalices early game.

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Originally Posted by Parcher
In what I have found recently, and I think Nightmare's recent results confirm this, is that Mental Note has become more integral to this deck due to the implementation of Jotun Grunt. Not only is he a 4/4 Tormod's Crypt in the mirror, but several Fish varients, viable only due to his inclusion, are popping up in some large tournament slots.



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Originally Posted by Ob Freely
Jotun Grunt is hardly a format-defining card, anyway. It's just another decent, playable card with more than its share of hype surrounding it.


Yep, the hype is overdone. It's a good card, but arguments for and against Mental Note vis-a-vis Grunt are pointless. It can really go either way.

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Grunt I admit is a good card.... but it's not all that great IMO. Grunt isnt a format defining card, but it's by far one of the strongest SB options availible to White.

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Since people are suggesting suboptimal cards like Reprisal and Threads of Disloyalty to deal with problem creatures, bc apparently, 4 Swords and 14 cantrips isn't enough, has anyone considered Psionic Blast.

I had double Psionic Blasts in earlier builds. At best, it was overkill; at worst, the 3cc cost was too much. But it was always a nice surprise that would bring a smile to at least one player at the table. :)

Re: Reprisal. Do we really need this? 4 StP seems enough, whether or not you go the EE-route. With any more, you're not really playing up the aggro part of the deck and are playing something else. It's also too situational, like if you need to kill MoR, a Tog on defense, etc.

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I was thinking about Psionic Blast.... weird. I knew I didnt want to run Reprisal or Condemn. I personally thought they sucked. So I decided that Psionic Blast would be cool, and finishing an opponent off Sea Stompy style was even cooler.

4 Swords may be enough, but SBing more removal is never a bad strategy since this is a creature format.