Replace? Slivers have always wanted to play with 20 Muscle Slivers. This lets you play 8 given the colours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
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Replace? Slivers have always wanted to play with 20 Muscle Slivers. This lets you play 8 given the colours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
Sedge Sliver seems like it would be a no-go if not almost entirely because it's red, and it would require a total reworking of a mana-base that has been, seemingly anyway, very effective so far.
Beyond that I think this deck is obviously a competitive one, as it can match-up fairly well with the big three and probably carry these positive match-ups down into the lower tiers. Once an accepted list is found I think this could indeed move to open forum.
Meh, I prefer Sylvan Library but I have somewhat of an old-school bias. I was going to suggest it earlier but I didnt think it would be necessary with the cantrips, etc. It works wonders with fetches and you can do a personal howling mine (for 4 life) against solidarity or some other deck where life doesnt matter much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
Consider it done. I posted a sort of hybrid between the few most recent lists, as we haven't quite settled on the optimal list yet. All signs point to EE in the main, but I haven't tested that extensively. Is there anyone who can tell us how that is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
On that note, I think we should call this deck Grover. Or for the presidentially inclined, 'Mr. Cleveland' :laugh:. I don't know, Counter-Sliver seems as good as anything, I suppose. Perhaps Counter-Sliver 2.0Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
On the topic of Sedge Sliver, it requires both black and red, which are the only colors we don't run. We can't support 5 colors on 17 lands, and I don't think we'd really want to go 5 color at this point anyway. UGW is the way to go.
Counter-Sliver 2k6? That's kinda boring, I guess. Actually, I liked Mav's suggestion of "Battlestax Threshstill ATSlivers." :laugh:
EDIT: I kinda like "Grover," too. :laugh:
I really think we should keep 4 Stifles in the list. They are really good. While they're better in some matchups than others, there is almost no matchup where they are outright bad. Also, I'm not sure the extra 2 cantrips (Sleight of Hands) are necessary. I've been perfectly happy with just the 8 so far. The Engineered Explosives are very nice, but I'm just not sure what to take out for them. I guess the lone Eladamri's Call is an easy target, but I really like EC in there. Again, don't think of it as a "one of." Think of it as wildcard sliver #17. Or use it as I did in one of my games against Solidarity yesterday; I fetched a Meddling Mage with it! You guys have indicated that maybe the 2x Counterspell aren't necessary, and it's possible you're right. I haven't play-tested that version. I just know that I haven't been unhappy with them in my build so far. It's a hard decision. This may just be a case of taking out something good to put in something better.
There is plenty to gain from playing a black splash. You get access to Hibernation Sliver (which is awesome in a pinch with FOW), and Duress against combo. This also gives you a way to trade with creatures while still keeping yours alive. It also adds more 2/2 slivers to the deck.
Something along the lines of:
18-20 Lands
including Gemstone Mine or City of Brass
+3 Hibernation Sliver
+1 Winged Sliver
-1 Plated Sliver
-2 TalonSliver
-4 Serum Visions
+3 Duress
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I am confident that adding black would not improve this deck. We already have a good game against combo (including Iggy Pop, I think), and the Talon Slivers enable us to block and kill opposing creatures without having to trade. Adding a fourth color would just make the mana base shakier. This has already been discussed. Finally, we run 25+ blue spells in the deck, so finding something to pitch to FoW is rarely a problem.
The black splash does not add anything to this deck sure you get duress, but ill take mage over duress against combo any day. Also hibernation sliver requires you to pay 2 life each sliver, this starts to add up between fetches and such plus you would need to make the deck 4 color giving it a shakier manabase than 4 color landstill (that has to be a record). As to cutting talon sliver for hibernation sliver umm LOL? so you want to be able to do combat tricks as opposed to having first strike and completing dominating the board with out fancy return to hand effects. I could see times where returning a sliver to your hand for force of will could be useful; It won't be very often and is not worth adding a fourth color.
This deck is UGW unless timespiral releases something truly broken. Crystaline and Muscle Sliver cannot be replaced and as such force you into UGW. This is not a casual tribal sliver deck that can fit everyones pet sliver into it, this deck is made to win games PERIOD.
Agreed. UWG is the only deck that is competetive with the current bunch of slivers and i doubt that anything will be released in Time Spiral that will change that. In order to warrent inclusion in the deck the "new sliver" would have to be 2cc or less and provide something better than +1/+1, flying and first strike OR be 3cc and provides something completely broken like "all slivers are indestructible". I really doubt they would print a card that falls under either of those pretenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
That being said I think the energy of this thread should be devoted to improving the current UWG setup and not to suggesting new slivers.
Edit: I like the name "Threshstill ATSlivers BattleStax" because the acronym would be T(h).A.T.S. B.S. :)
The deck looks very promising. I am by myself playing Sliver since a couple of years. And I have to say, I am nearly playing the same concept of Sliver, but with slightly cards.
I am playing Vial Slivers, together with more Winged and the Hibernation Sliver, for more combat Tricks, giving me more mana to play Mana Leak, while not loosing the speed to play Slivers. But this would become a completely different deck.
I have two main questions regarding the UGW Version:
1) Why do you play Plated Sliver? I understand, that having more toughness can be sometimes nice, but is it really necessary to have more toughness, than a better Sliver? This also pushes the deck more towards white, than is healthy for the deck. Furthermore, this should be an Aggro-Control Deck, so +1/0 should be always better than 0/+1.
2) Have you ever thought about playing Worship/Crystalline Sliver - Combo in this deck? It would allow to attack with Slivers, and just win by protecting the Worship?
3) Have you ever thought adding The Abyss? In combination with Crystalline Sliver, this is the bomb!
4) I am playing with 2 Slivers as one of. Essence Sliver and Shifting Sliver. The combination of Crystalline/Winged/Essence is always game, as long I can hold off the mass removal. Even racing with the Shifting is easier than with Winged. I would play a combination of Winged and Shifting like 2/1.
1) You don't need extra power in this deck, you need the extra toughness for your slivers to live to deal damage... also Plated Sliver>Goblin Lackey...
2) That's a good suggestion... A 2-of in the SB? Pushes the deck more to a Thresh deck with a "better" creature base, reminiscent of Nimble Mongoose + Worship... But why not, if it wins games?
3) As mentioned above, the deck is heavily favored to be UGW... Adding colors for "cool" effects aren't worth destabilizing your manabase... Though might be an SB card for a UBW version...
4) Keeping the deck's curve to a maximum of 2 allows us to run a low land count... The deck's plan is to be winning by the time you have the chance to drop a 4cc threat anyway, so IMHO they're not needed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by imran
Hi, Imran. Let me answer your questions:
1. Plated Sliver is in here, because: 1) it's a 1-drop, 2) it stops Lackey and lives, 3) it keeps your team alive with an Engineered Plague on the board. Furthermore, any combination of 2 Plated/Muscle Slivers allows your team to survive Pyroclasm/Massacre. It is suprisingly good. While this is an aggro-control deck, against most other aggro and aggro-control decks, we are the "control" deck. We need to stabilize until we can get 3 or 4 slivers out, and then start swinging.
2. Of course Worship has been considered. The problem is that with our manabase, getting to 4 lands can often be a tricky proposition. Still, it is certainly worth consideration as a sideboard card. I'm not sure how necessary it is, though. Those sideboard slots might be better spent on other things.
3. The Abyss + Crystalline Sliver is a nifty combo, but again, it's not worth adding a 4th color to an already fragile manabase. The only reason the manabase works fairly well right now is because of the cantrips.
4. I think Shifting Sliver is strictly inferior to Winged Sliver, although I'll admit I haven't tested it. Essence Sliver is certainly tempting, but see above remarks about Worship.
In regards to worship, I can see it as maybe a two of in the SB since burn was a pain in the ass matchup for me, even though the guy still topdecked fireblast right when he needed it i could see the matchup was very close usually determined by who went first, since what you only need to buy is 1 turn however I think chill might be the correct choice or hell maybe COP: RED is the way to go. I plan on testing all three to see which one is the right answer.
As for the number of cantrips in the deck I'm starting to feel that 10 is too many It seems like I find myself cantriping into more cantrips more often than not. Brainstorm and Serum Visions seem like enough when I test without the sleight of hands. Which let me add 2 chain of vapor back in the list, but it could easily be something else, maybe victual sliver?
Also to all of you suggesting hibernation sliver, please stop we heard you the first time. Hibernation sliver is not in the colors, will cost you a ton of life and fills the same niche as talon sliver for blocking, the fact that he's a 2/2 is about the only thing that makes him even close to playable.
CoP: red is ass. Don't even bother with that. Chill or Hydroblast/B.E.B. is the way to go. I'd probably go with Chill, seeing as how it always annoys the piss out of me when I'm playing red.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
I agree with you about the cantrips. 4 Brainstorm + 4 Serum Visions seems just right, said Goldilocks. I think you would be well served to replace the Sleight of Hands with some sort of "answer" card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
I'm going to play in the 4x Force of Will tournament at the Mana Curve this weekend. There are going to be some really good players there playing some really good decks, so I'm interested to see how well I can do with this deck. Hopefully, most of my potential opponents aren't paying any attention to this thread. :cool:
For the burn matchup I'm starting to think that victual sliver may be the way to go, it's another 2/2 sliver which gives you an even faster clock, plus you can sac your weaker guys in that match i.e. talon and winged usaully for 4 life which will get that one extra turn needed to kill the burn player. Plus it can only help you against goblins. Meddling mage in the maindeck might be useful I'm not sure, combo matchups seem fine(with the exception of iggy-pop) so I don't know if mage is worth running over enginneered explosives in the main.
Some thoughts after a couple more nights of play-testing...
1. It might make sense to move the Stifles to the sideboard, and play 3-4 Pithing Needles maindeck instead. This will weaken the storm-based combo matchups a little, but strengthen a lot of other matchups. Even if you lose game 1 to combo, you should dominate after sideboarding (Meddling Mage + Stifle = some good).
2. The deck really wants 3x Talon Sliver + 2x Winged Sliver. I think we can cut a Plated Sliver to make room.
3. The deck runs pretty well on 17 land, but I often feel like I'm living on a knife's edge, especially when I'm playing against decks with Wasteland. I think 18 might be better. You can always side out a land in matchups where it's safe to do so.
4. I know I wavered on this issue yesterday, but I think we need to keep a couple of Counterspells in the maindeck. This deck goes to the late game fairly often, so it is a good idea to have some hard counters besides FoW. I hate getting to the late game and feeling naked because all I have in hand is a Stifle and a Daze.
I can defenitely agree that sometimes it's a nuisance to not have any hard counters, and it would probably be a good idea to add one or two. But I wouldn't go higher than that since having all of your counters be "free" is nice in that you don't have to leave mana open for counterspells instead you can just cast slivers and cantrips like a madman.
I'm not so sure it is a good idea to take stifles out of the main, remember they aren't there for combo matchups, although they do wreck them, stifle is there mainly against goblins. Stifle and swords can almost wreck them single handedly. We seem to keep cutting the cards that are good against gobbos and I'm concerned that the matchup will become less favorable.
As for needle in the mainboard, I'm not sure about your meta but I'm actually considering taking needle out of the sideboard and thowing it in a binder for awhile It seems like the only time I side it in is against random belcher decks or equipment based decks and in almost every situation null rod does a better job.
Actually, Goblins is one of the matchups I had in mind. I think Needle is actually better against Goblins, if for no other reason than it shuts down Aether Vial. Stifle doesn't do that. It can also shut down Wasteland (often a very strong first turn play), Rishadan Port, Gempalm Incinerator, Siege-Gang Commander, and Kiki-Jiki. Honestly, I think Needle actually improves that matchup. And you can side in Stifle against Goblins, because it's awfully good, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
I'm finally back, after a weekend of moving and no internet :cry:.
After reading the discussion, I have the following thoughts:
@Worship in the main/SB: Yeah, I could see it happen. It's not in there right now because it's hard for us to hit our 4th land drop consitently, but it's pretty much a game winner if you can protect it once it hits the table. I could really go either way on this.
@Essence Sliver: See above about the mana issues, and I honestly think that it's too much of a win-more card. Sure, this card helps you flat out win, but if you can play it, chances are you were winning anyway.
@Hibernation Sliver: No.
@Switching Stifle and Needle: I'm not sure how I feel about this just because Stifle is so wonderful. It's not just there against Gobs and Combo, it's actually one of our best tools against Thresh's many fetchlands. Sure, you can needle fetches I suppose, but it's so much more fun to watch them cry when they pay the life, and still don't get the land :laugh:.
@Cutting a Plated Sliver for Talon/Winged: Yeah, we could probably get away with 3. We'll still see them often enough early game and you only really need 1 or 2 for them to do their job (defending against Pyroclasm/Infest/Massacre). And having first strike makes up for the lack of assfat that cutting a Plated Sliver might cause, because their dudes aren't going to be touching your guy's ass if they kill them first.
@More hard counters: They would be useful, sure, it's not like hard counters are bad. It's just finding room for them that's causing the biggest issues.
@Victual Sliver against burn: I still don't like Victual Sliver in this deck, because you have to sac your dudes. If his only purpose is to help against burn, sideboard Aegis of Honor. It makes burn decks cry. Or Chill, which you can pitch to Force.
And I'd still love to see EE make it in. It might not be worth it, who knows, but it's great against the mirror at 2. Blow it up, and then you both stall with your 1/6 Plated Slivers :laugh:. Seriously though, if you hold a few Slivers (1 Muscle and 1 Crystalline is usually enough) until after you pop the explosives, you can recover a lot faster than they do. And it kills Mongoose. And for that matter Lackey, and Aether Vial. That's the main reason I like it.
EDIT: Oh, and I'm still mad enough at Ted Knutson for the whole Truffle Shuffle/Thunder Bluff thing that I really want to call this deck 'Battlestax' now :laugh:.
Well maybe needles mainboard are the way to go, i hadn't even thought of some of the stuff you could name with gobs, Wasteland was all that came to mind although I never had much of a problem with them. Rishadan Ports are a bitch though, so is the vial.
As far as removing stifle, I'm not so sure. Needle would be nice but doesn't maindeck stifle add more to matchups overall? It wrecks combo and gobs and can really put the hurt on grow's manabase. I haven't tested with MD needles though so ill try them out and see how it goes before I make up my mind.