[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

Alrighty, then. Here goes:

I agree with Mav that whenever you want to run Needle, Stifle is typically better preboard, because it's reactive rather than proactive. If you don't know what to name with Needle, then it's not too useful. Stifle also hits triggered abilities. And the fact that it's a one-time thing is sometimes better. Stifling one of Thresh's fetchlands to gain tempo is certainly better than Needling them and losing our own, no? There are times where it's useless, and times where it's gamebreaking. This may be trying to cover too many bases, but what about 2 Stifle and 2 Needle in the main? If we make the move to 12 cantrips, we shouldn't have trouble finding either, and that way if we know what we're up against ("Mountain, Lackey, go" is a pretty fair indication, no?) we can Needle it proactively, but we still have Stifle to cover the random shit they pull out of their ass. We can always run 2 Stifle and 2 Needle in the board, pulling out the Stifles for 2 more Needles once we know what we're up against, or boarding in the Stifles too for 8 maindeck rapage slots.

I also hate to go below 3 Talon Slivers (he's just so good!), but it would probably be better than cutting another land, even if we have more cantrips.
Subject of what cantrips to run, I think that Sleight of Hand and Portent are equally viable options, depending on what you want to do. If you want to play one of the top cards this turn, Sleight of Hand is obviously better here, but if you want a reactive card a la Force, Daze, Stifle or something, Portent is better because it digs deeper and you won't be using the card until their turn anyway. Testing with both is warranted here. As for Impulse, I still like it, but it should only be added in addition to Porten/SoH, as one mana cantripping is key here. Perhaps a list like this:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (15)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Removal (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Permission (13)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle

//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent/Slieght of Hand/Impulse/Whatever

//Sideboard (note that this isn't concrete, it could really still be anything)
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Harmonic Sliver

If you don't like the 2 Counterspell in the main, you can always cut them and bring the Daze and SoH count up to 4, or leave SoH at 3 and add another Talon Sliver if you prefer 3 (which I think that I will find that I do from further testing). Or, if you don't like 12 cantrips, you could push it down to 10 and run the Counterspells, Dazes, and the 3rd Talon Sliver. If for some reason you still don't like Counterspell in the main, then you can tweak the previous plan by bringing the Stifle count back up to 4 alongside 2 Needle and run 2 of something else in the board. I'll personally be testing all of these ideas.

Pithing Needle vs. Stifle

Goblins:
Stifle is good in this matchup, but Pithing Needle is even better.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Thresh:
Both stop EE, but Stifle can hit an early fetch-land for a tempo boost.
Edge: Stifle

Solidarity:
Pithing Needle is virtually useless here. Stifle can hit fetch-lands for a tempo boost, and might occasionally save you from a lethal brain freeze.
Edge: Stifle

Iggy Pop:
Again, Pithing Needle is useless against storm combo. Stifle is even better here than it is against Solidarity, since Iggy Pop has a harder time playing around it.
Edge: Stifle

Salvager Game:
A single Needle naming Auriok Salvagers pretty much shuts them down. Stifle can be therapied out of your hand before they go off.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Belcher:
Stifle saves you from a single activation. Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher = gg.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Stompy with Equipment:
Stifle is only marginally useful against decks like Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy, Faerie Stompy, and the like. Pithing Needle is much better in these matchups, as it shuts down Troll Ascetic, Parallax Wave, Umezawa's Jitte, and other equipment.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Affinity:
Stifle is actually decent here, as Modular is a triggered ability and can therefore be stifled. However, Needles naming Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating are very strong.
Edge: Pithing Needle

RGSA:
Stifle is almost completely useless against Survival decks. Pithing Needle at least forces them to find artifact hate.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Pernicious Deed.dec
Stifle will get usually just get picked out of your hand. Pithing Needle is much better here.
Edge: Pithing Needle

So, what's the problem with running both?

I'd also like to point out that against the Tier 1, Stifle clearly has the advantage.

But again, why not both?

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Originally Posted by Pinder

So, what's the problem with running both?

I'd also like to point out that against the Tier 1, Stifle clearly has the advantage.

But again, why not both?

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I see no problem with running 2 of each, or at least trying it out.

I haven't done any real testing, but my goldfishing lends to Mav's theory that 12 cantrips may be too much. When you play Portent and reveal 2 Serum Visions and a Brainstorm, you might be going overboard. Also, this is a problem for us more than for Thresh because we need to commit more mana to more creautres, more often. We can't just plop down a threat, then use all of our mana to cantrip and counter things. We can only afford to play maybe 1 (perhaps 2) cantrips in a given turn early game, so we want those cantrips, on the whole, to draw into business spells. I think that maybe cutting 2 SoH/Portent/Whatever and having only 10 cantrips is the way to go. Or maybe I'm just unlucky, and normal people don't draw cantrips like I do. Onlly further testing will tell.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

I strongly advise that stifle be kept in the main and needle, as good as it is, be regulated to the sideboard.

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How exactly does one 'regulate' a Pithing Needle? I think the term you're searching for here is 'relegate'. Proper english for the win :tongue:.

You know what? I think you guys were right about pretty much everything. Of course, I never said you were wrong. I just wanted to try something else out. It didn't work. Forgive me for doubting.

I've gone back to the page 1 build. Well, almost. I would like to suggest finding room for Winged Sliver #3. That actually does seem to improve the deck.

That is all.

Not even 2x Harmonic sideboarded?

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Originally Posted by Volt

You know what? I think you guys were right about pretty much everything. Of course, I never said you were wrong. I just wanted to try something else out. It didn't work. Forgive me for doubting.

I've gone back to the page 1 build. Well, almost. I would like to suggest finding room for Winged Sliver #3. That actually does seem to improve the deck.

That is all.

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I could definitely see upping the cantrips to 10 again maybe but 12 is just overkill. I was also going to make a point about thresh only needing one threat but pinder beat me to it. Winged sliver # 3 would be a great addition to the deck, although I'm not sure what to cut for it.

About the needle vs. stifle debate (great analysis btw Volt) stifle seems to be the better choice, it being better against all of the tier 1 decks in the format. In the goblins matchup stifle has the edge in my opinion: it deals with all of their problematic goblins and also deals with wasteland (not as well as needle but it gets the job done). The only cards it doesn't address are vial and port, and vial doesn't really matter at that point since you can stifle any of their really nasty goblins anyway.

EDIT:

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Not even 2x Harmonic sideboarded?

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We've been discussing him alot lately and are still trying to work him into either the main or the board.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

We've been discussing him alot lately and are still trying to work him into either the main or the board.

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Has any thought been given to bringing E. Call back in light of harmonic sliver? I always liked Call in here, even though it hurts your tempo a tad (not at all if you kept your mana open for a counter) but it allows you to get the sliver that is most useful in that matchup (Muscle vs. Combo, Crystalline vs. Control, Talon/Winged vs. Aggro and of course gives you extra copies of any creatures you board in). I understood why you cut it before as the deck was very redundant, and utilized quality draw spells to find what it needed. Harmonic however, is more inconsistent than your other Slivers. It is a complete house in some matchups, and far and away your worst Sliver in others (at least when the others are dead, they are 2cc).

Normally, this would relegate it to the board (note how pretty much no decks run sex monkey main board) but i think that Harmonic is SO good in certain matchups(Stax, Angel Stax, 5/3, AS, FS, Survival, and even Goblins), that it warrents a 1-of in the mainboard. Of course, a one of won't appear too often, so 1 or 2 E. Calls would greatly improve it's effectiveness as well as your boarding effectiveness. I think it's at least worth some testing.


@Pithing Needle vs. Stifle: I agree with the above breakdown concerning the matchups, but you're not deciding which to put in the deck, you're debating which to put mainboard. In this regard, Stifle has a huuuge advantage. It can often be difficult to tell what to name vs. an opponent game one, and cards like Survival, Belcher, and Deed can be played and used in the same turn, not giving you a chance to lay an effective needle.

Stifle is at least decent vs. almost every deck in the meta, and it's real time nature makes decisions much easier. It also has a surpise factor that is invaluable since players tend to make future plans around their hands, not their opponents. Stifle also gives you a nice advantage in games 2 and 3, where the opponent might be playing around it, even if you boarded it out.

This isn't really an argument against the 2/2 split, just a general comment about their nature.

You're right that Harmonic is either amazing, or the worst card in the deck, depending on the matchup.

I think running 1 Harmonic Sliver + 1 Eladamri's Call maindeck is a solid idea. I've pretty much given up on trying to sell Mav & Pinder on Eladamri's Call, though. They just aren't buying it.

I even think running 1 Harmonic Sliver + 2 Engineered Explosives maindeck is a solid option. Pinder really hates "one ofs," though, and doesn't seem to buy my explanation that Harmonic and EE are essentially the same thing in this deck.

*Sigh* These guys are so hard to work with. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Volt

You know what? I think you guys were right about pretty much everything. Of course, I never said you were wrong. I just wanted to try something else out. It didn't work. Forgive me for doubting.

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I may be wrong, but that absolutely reeks of a concession to me. If you think we're right because of testing, that's okay. But don't just give up and agree because we keep telling you how right we are :tongue:.

I think that you were right about a couple of things:

1) We probably need more cantrips (maybe not 12, but more than 8)
2) Pithing Needle deserves at least some sort of presence in the main.

Also, if we do run Pithing Needle in the main, Harmonics are strictly sideboard. We don't want to get caught with dead Slivers in our hand when we have the only artifact on the table, the same way we don't want to run them with Worship.

As to bringing back E. Call, it might be a good idea, but it would need a far more compelling reason than 'it fetches Harmonics!' to convince me of that. So far 'it fetches any Sliver you need!' hasn't been enough to convince me, but maybe I'm an idiot. I like the utility, but the cost just seems to hurt our tempo too much.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

Normally, this would relegate it to the board

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And good use of the word 'relegate'. Are you taking notes, Mav :tongue:?

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Volt

Pinder really hates "one ofs," though, and doesn't seem to buy my explanation that Harmonic and EE are essentially the same thing in this deck.

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I realize that they're essentially the same thing, but in that case why not just run 3 of one of them? If we had Call as a 1 of (which I'm still willing to consider, given compelling enough evidence), I can see why running 1 Harmonic makes sense, though. You're right about me hating 'one -ofs' though. Unless we have some sort of tutor effect, I just don't think we'll see them often enough for them to matter.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

I may be wrong, but that absolutely reeks of a concession to me. If you think we're right because of testing, that's okay. But don't just give up and agree because we keep telling you how right we are :tongue:.

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I conceded because after a couple nights of play-testing, it didn't seem like the new build was improving the matchup against Goblins, which I really thought it would. I don't know why, but for some reason, I've been having a hard time winning more than half my games against Goblins in play-testing lately, regardless of what build I run. I don't know if it's just a bad streak, or because my play-test partner (Mr. Right Hand) has gotten better at playing Goblins.

As far as Stifle vs. Pithing Needle, Stifle is definitely superior overall against Tier 1. Pithing Needle is generally better against stuff below Tier 1, but it does require that you know what your opponent is playing. And, as you noted, Pithing Needle and Harmonic Sliver don't play well together. Maybe we should just stick with Stifles, because I definitely think we need to be running 3-4 Harmonics between the maindeck and sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

I realize that they're essentially the same thing, but in that case why not just run 3 of one of them? If we had Call as a 1 of (which I'm still willing to consider, given compelling enough evidence), I can see why running 1 Harmonic makes sense, though. You're right about me hating 'one -ofs' though. Unless we have some sort of tutor effect, I just don't think we'll see them often enough for them to matter.

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Hmm... If only we had some sort of "tutor" that we could put in the deck. What could do that, I wonder. :tongue:

Seriously, though, the reason to run 1 Harmonic is because it's better than EE in some matchups, but is bad enough in other matchups that you really don't want to draw more than 1 of them.

I have some results from testing the changes i discussed earlier.

I liked upping the number of cantrips, but taking out land slots gave mixed results. Against decks lacking land hate the number oflands was ok at 15-16 because you only needed one land with the cantrips to dig for the rest. Against decks with land hate the cantrips needed to be lands because there was no guarentee that you would have the mana to dig and set up the rest of the game. It offered significant tempo loss at the expense of useless quality advantage in that setup and against that type of hate.

The cantrips I liked the best out of the new ones were the Portents and the Sleights, in that order. I found Portents to be good on the first turn and late game and poor mid game. I won a couple of games againt goblins where I used Portent in the late game to Elemental Augury them a couple of mountains ftw (Bought me time to kill them). Sleight was good 1st turn and early game but not so good mid and late game for dig. Impulse was poor all around and I feel that E. Call would be much better than this card.

I liked portent the best during these testing sessions because it gave the deck better early and late game. I feel the deck has a strong mid game, once it stablilizes, but stabilizing is an issue and finishing the opponant off can be a problem too at times. Against goblins, for example, often times they would just build up over a couple of turns and kill me if i couldnt put up a significant clock/get evasion to kill them first.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

As to bringing back E. Call, it might be a good idea... I like the utility, but the cost just seems to hurt our tempo too much.

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How about Worldly Tutor instead? You lose your draw, but it only costs 1 mana, and you do have cantrips and draw spells to make up for the lost card.

Tutor would hurt the deck's tempo even more... You could get back the card you lost with draw spells, but those spells were meant to get more cards into your hand, not to get back what you've lost... E. Call would still be a better choice..

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Tutor would hurt the deck's tempo even more... You could get back the card you lost with draw spells, but those spells were meant to get more cards into your hand, not to get back what you've lost... E. Call would still be a better choice..

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I suppose it depends on the state of the game at the time... either paying less mana will be more beneficial, at that moment, OR, you will be able to afford the extra mana so you don't lose a card. There could be times, however, early game especially, where the fact that Worldly Tutor costs only one mana, may make the difference between being able to tutor or not. This could be beneficial, OR, can you indisputably say that there is never an instance where being able to cast Worldly Tutor a turn earlier, and without having to have white AND green mana available, will be more beneficial to you than not losing one of your draws?

Since both cards have an advantage over the other, I would think the answer may only be answered by testing both. What do you guys think? Volt, you're an advocate of E.Call... did you test Worldly Tutor?

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Originally Posted by worsel

I suppose it depends on the state of the game at the time... either paying less mana will be more beneficial, at that moment, OR, you will be able to afford the extra mana so you don't lose a card. There could be times, however, early game especially, where the fact that Worldly Tutor costs only one mana, may make the difference between being able to tutor or not. This could be beneficial, OR, can you indisputably say that there is never an instance where being able to cast Worldly Tutor a turn earlier, and without having to have white AND green mana available, will be more beneficial to you than not losing one of your draws?

Since both cards have an advantage over the other, I would think the answer may only be answered by testing both. What do you guys think? Volt, you're an advocate of E.Call... did you test Worldly Tutor?

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Nope, I've never actually tested it in this deck. I can imagine scenarios where Worldly Tutor would work where EC would not, but I think the card disadvantage is the overriding concern.

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Originally Posted by Volt

Hmm... If only we had some sort of tutor that didn't cause some sort of significant tempo loss in the early to mid-game that we could put in the deck. What could do that, I wonder. :tongue:

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Edited for clarity...and for the win :tongue:.

Honestly, it's not the tutoring portion of either EC or Worldly Tutor that I dislike. I like being able to fetch any Sliver in the deck. It's the tempo loss that makes me less than enamoured with the both of them. Worldly Tutor makes you lose your next draw, or spend an extra card (that should be spent digging into something else) to avoid losing that draw. Either way, you're losing a card. The problem with EC is that it costs 2, so you can't play it first turn, and it also loses you a turn when you play it, either if you tap out during your turn, or leave the mana open to play it at the end of theirs. Either way, it's mana not spent playing a Sliver. In the long run, I see EC as being the better of the two, as the drawback becomes less and less significant the further you move past two mana, but the drawback on Worldly Tutor stays the same.

And my problem hasn't ever really been with EC on principle, it's been with EC as a one-of. When I tested it with only one maindeck, I never drew it when it would have mattered, and whenever I drew it, it didn't matter. So I see no reason not to just run a card we would like to see more often.

And if EC was a one mana creature tutor that put the creature into your hand, then fuck yes I would run them.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

I liked portent the best during these testing sessions because it gave the deck better early and late game. I feel the deck has a strong mid game, once it stablilizes, but stabilizing is an issue and finishing the opponant off can be a problem too at times. Against goblins, for example, often times they would just build up over a couple of turns and kill me if i couldnt put up a significant clock/get evasion to kill them first.

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I agree that Portent is probably the better in the Portent/SoH debate, because of two things:

1) It lets you fiddle with your opponent's library. This can buy you time, or shuffle away a something they put on top (like a Top). You can either force them into something they don't need, or force something they do need out of reach.

2) It lets you shuffle your library. There have been numerous times when I've had to put useless crap (usually land) on the top with brainstorm without a fetchland to shuffle them away, and a follow-up Portent can achieve the same effect, and draw you a card.

I have never played this deck or tested it but I have had the pleasure of beating the crap out of it once or twice. JK - Volt

Anyways on to real discussion, I think you should reconsider putting 3 Eladamri's Calls back into the deck. It's especially note worthy now with the release of Harmonic Sliver. Several of you had him MD and at one point Volt said:

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Originally Posted by Volt

I've been doing some playtesting with a couple of Harmonic Slivers in the deck. They're pretty sweet, and I think we definitely need to make room for them. I would suggest 2 maindeck

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With Eladamri's Call you'll be able to get the sliver you need in each specific match-up. Alright, the valid counter argument is the loss of tempo. To address that, I would like to ask in which match-ups does one turn of tempo really matter against the 4 major arch-types (combo, control, aggro-control, and aggro) The answers are combo and aggro. Against true control one turn isn't going to matter what’s going to be game breaking is if you can counter their wrath effects. Against aggro-control nothing spectacular is going to happen in the first 4 turns it's all about the mid-game and the late-game (this is were you really need a Crystalline Sliver and having access to 7 is nice). Against all forms of combo this deck rocks them, and searching out Muscle Sliver is nice. The exception (exception meaning not an auto-win) being Solidarity were Eladamri's Call isn't as strong but again Muscle Sliver search can really put them on a clock just as fast as playing any other sliver being played the turn before.

Now to talk about the true debate where the tempo loss truly matters, aggro. Does the ability to search out any sliver that you need, at a cost of two turns, and four mana worth the investment against aggro? This is a question that I would like others to debate because I feel that this is truly the only reason that Eladamri's Call isn't in the deck. Personally (if it isn't obvious by now) that I feel that it is. I think it is because being able to get the silver you need right now for this match-up, normal Talon for aggro, at the loss of temp is a pro not a con. It has also been stated that in the counter argument against Æther Vials, speed at the cost of card quality is not optimal (in this deck). The added versatility and utility aspect of Eladamri's Call cannot be ignored.


A list something like this:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (14)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

//Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Draw-Search (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Eladamri's Calls

Also Stifle/EE/Talon/Needle #'s can be interchanged upon personal preference. I have just always been a huge fan of EE.

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