I'm currently trying 2 maindeck in place of wisdom and justice. I feel I still need wisdom on some occasions, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
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I'm currently trying 2 maindeck in place of wisdom and justice. I feel I still need wisdom on some occasions, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
I think that the auto-cut is clearly a holistic wisdom. Everything I said defending it like a month and a half ago, I take back. Replenish is like Hanukkah and my birthday just overlapped. In comparison, Wisdom is like finding that last quarter you need to pay for your load of laundry.
I'd also consider cutting a fourth sterling grove. I'm not sure that cutting justice entirely is the best idea. It's awful powerful in that if you have, say, one win condition, an EP, justice, and a ghostly prson out when EE for 3 pops, you geddon thresh, or at least pwn their bears. Makes people think twice before blowing stuff up. So, either that, or an elephant grass. I need to test. Which prolly won't happen for like a week or two. I must meditate on this.
Wow, can't believe this deck is still alive and back in the LMF. I've been in hiatus for two semesters and glad i missed the whole Flash nonsense...
I tried my deck out against people on MWS with the Replenish...My deck is WGu, but I'll try to flesh out the differences:
20 lands (with 2 Tropical Islands instead of two Taigas)
20 "Essentials" (Argothian, Presence, Exploration, Utopia, Elephant Grass)
// Win
1 Words of Wind
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Decree of Justice
// Lock
3 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
// Random 1 of's and 2 of
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Parallax Wave
1 Karmic Justice
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
// REPLENISH!
2 Replenish
// Side
1 Replenish
1 Karmic Justice
1 Aura of Silence
2 City of Solitude
1 Sacred Ground
1 Null Chamber
1 Ground Seal
2 Spiritual Focus
3 Rule of Law
1 In the Eye of Chaos
Deck Choices:
Words of Wind -
Ok, this is the non-standard decklist, but I still advocate this build. In my opinion, drawing a Words of War early isn't optimal because, though you may have parts of your engine up, you aren't going to be killing them in the early turns 5-8. But, if you have draw into Words of Wind during this time, you can have them proceed to pick up pieces of their board while you pick up lands to be replayed via Exploration, which is far more costly to them compared to the 6-12 (non-lethal) damage you might inflict upon them during this time. Actually, I used to get wins at tournaments when I played Words of Wind and made them scoop their board by turn 6-7 without actually inflicting damage. I don't run the infinite version with Cloud of Faeries because I find that to be overkill; you just want them to pick up ANYTHING really, because with all the mana accel you have with Utopia Sprawl, Exploration, and Serra's Sanctum, you're way ahead of them in terms of returnable cards.
I do appreciate the fact that Words of War can burn critters too, though, but I use Parallax Wave to stop the really annoying ones.
Also, I added Decree of Justice because of the prevalence of Meddling Mages in my area (Also another reason why I chose Words of Wind and not War; people usually name War and I chuckle inwardly.)
Mirri's Guile vs. Sylvan Library - Mirri's Guile works under Confinement, so it helps during those times when you have to throw it up early and you only have one enchantress to support it. That and the cheaper casting cost gives it the slight edge to library, though I'm 55/45 on this issue.
Parallax Wave - Used against Meddling mages and random critter jank. I suppose if I splashed red, Immolation would be a better choice, but there's never anything wrong with taking care of multiple random critter threats. I recently used it against a life deck to stop his nomads/spiratulist nonsense by removing them before both got into play.
Less Sterling Groves/Confinement - I'm not sure why but 3 has always worked for me. Since there's relatively few slots for the toolbox, and other 1 of's need to get in so I cut them both by 1. I'd cut them anyway to put in the 2 Replenishes.
Replenish - Very awesome. There needs to be at least 2 of them in this deck, period. Man, I used to run Rofellos's Gift in this slot and now the deck just seems to hum so much better. I'd cram in more sac stuff if I could to max this card's usefulness out. Even if it only brings back a spent Sterling Grove or Elephant Grass, it is still too awesome. Holistic Wisdom is terrible in comparison.
In the Eye of Chaos - You know, I've actually never gotten this out against any combo player, but I've only tested a handful of times against Iggy, Solidarity, etc. Eh, I just put it in because I was running blue and just because I could, but I can't verify whether this card is any better than just a Rule of Law. Maybe just acts as RoL 5 if necessary.
The sideboard always needs tweaking and is definitely meta-dependent. I still dislike using Rule of Law, but I guess there's really no other way to put in more combo hate.
The one thing I hate/love about this deck is how tight the slots are after you get the 40 so-called essential cards out of the way (lands, engine, accelrants, and Elephant Grass). I still don't think Replenish will bring this deck more T8's than before, but it sure as hell is fun to bring the party back after Tranquilty, Tempest of Light, Deed, Explosives, etc.
There are decks that still use Deed and Explosives out there, right?
Your deck only has 58 cards so I recommend that you up the grove and confinement count to 4. I like you list. I run DoJ too just because of the uncounterable win con. I also think ghostly prison would be some good. I run between 1-3 because they just own once you get them down. Still testing their usefulness. I mostly just run 2. Good list though.
Sorry for double post
So I still need to finish this. Here is my list.
Land 20
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
5 Forest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
Engine 8
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
Win 3
1 Words of War
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Decree of Justice
Lock 5
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Accel 8
4 Exploration
4 Utopia Sprawl
Goods 17
2 Replenish
4 Sterling Grove
3 Elephant Grass
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Seal of Fire
Sideboard 15
1 Replenish
3 Rule of Law
2 Choke
1 City of Solitude
2 Spiritual Focus
1 Null Chamber
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Fire
1 Immolation
1 Sacred Ground
1 Karmic Justice
Thoughts before I buy?
I don't think Squee is all that good. You only want him when Confinement is down. Being a 1-of, the chances of you having Confinement, having Squee, but not being able to maintain the lock w/o him are nil. I also think Library is better than Guile, since it works with WoW and can actually draw you extra cards.
Yeah maybe not. I just really like him and gets the opponent to scoop :wink: . Guile is in there because it works under confinement. If I drop squee, I will definitely keep this in though. Further thoughts?
Is there any reason in particular that you're running more than one Taiga? Three seems unnecessary considering you're running both fetches and Utopia Sprawls. I would try to fit a couple more basic lands in there.
It's necessary to have the two Taigas because the deck's primary win condition is a red card. While it does leave us open to a little more waste hate, a goblins player who snatches a taiga can keep me off red all day - I'll keep my sanctums, thanks.
Raising the count of basics is also kind of a moot point. The suggested decklist plays eight (6/2) and, in my experiance, the first fetch is always for a basic forest.
I suppose you are correct to say that it's unnecessary to run two taigas, but I'm going to keep it up. Without enough opportunity to play and get results from a 1 taiga list, I'll allow my irrational fear of having my turn 1 taiga wasted, holistic wisdom (do we even play that anymore?) needled, windswept heath needled, and an engineered plague on pegasus on the board to dictate my actions. 2 taigas, end of story.
Ok so it's the first match I ever piloted this deck outside of the 2-Man Tourneys, and I'm playing online. And I get the Enchantress mirror. Not even kidding. Decks that have annoying mirrors shouldn't turn popular.
As my head hurts and I don't quite know what I'm doing with this deck, Lonelybaritone or any other experts, what's your plan in the Enchantress mirror?
Short answer: Aura of SilenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Long answer: I'm not really sure, to be honest. Being as nobody else has two moats sitting around, I'm really lacking a compotent test partner. But, with the recent unbanning of Replenish, I think we'll have to worry about running into enchantress sitting across from us sometime in the not-too-distant future.
Hmm...
My first thought is resolution of confinement. That would end the whole problem of WOW (assuming you're up against the more sucessful red version). Then, assuming your opponent is running Sacred Mesa (or the less worrisome Words of Wilding) I'd try to lock down a ghostly prison, or, if you're running the double moat version, an elephant grass. The ideal thing woudl be the to get your opponent to have one (or none) Groves in play around the pivotal turn 5-7 (not being worried about creatures or actual combo you won't have to waste time digging for moat or paying for an elephant grass). I say turn 5-7 because through your (hopefully assembled) draw engine you'll have hit at least one land a turn, you'll have a relatively full hand, and ... well, I guess I don't have a third reason.
If they have double grove and confinement, pray that they don't have squee. I really have to tell people to stop playing him. If they go Grove/grove/confinement, you should offer a draw. Remind them that you too are playign enchantress; hope that they don't demand to see squee.
This reminds me of the situation at Kaddy's latest DLD, when Zach Fine (who ripped me off for that plateau, thank you very much) asked me for tech for the goblins matchup. I answered flippantly, "Plague." This is the same sort of thing: Our pyrokenisis is Aura of Silence. Otherwise, it'll be mostly up to the luck of the draw. Deed, maybe? I reckon that MD'd a second Aura of Silence will help alot against artifact based combo, decks that play pernicous deed, and the chalice agro (5/3) matchup.
Cleansing Meditation!
Or Calming Verse.
Seriously though, it comes down to Aura of Silence, Serra's Sanctum, and to a lesser extent, Sterling Grove.
Hi!
I have to raise two questions concerning the main board:
1.) Is the red splash really needed? Its quite plain to me that Words of War is better then Words of Wilding -but the cards are basically doing the same (winning the game). Its just that Words of Wilding is a bit slower. I personally dont like getting manascrewed or make the manabase more unstable just for one or two cards, which can be replaced very well by others.
2.) Why dont you play Wild Growth? I like to run a full playset of them along with Explorations and Sprawls. The old Extended lists also used to play Wild Growth and Fertile Ground as a 4-of. It ensures to lay down an Enchantress Presence second turn and makes your manabase more consistent. Its always a nice topdeck, beacuse it replaces itself in terms of card(s) AND mana-investment.
Yes. Very yes. Having two taigas, or one, as afro suggested, isn't that problematic. What kind of mana screw are you talking about? If it's the inability to get white mana, then I don't see how it'd be different from it being just a basic forest. If it's the inablility to get red mana, that's why we run 4 fetches and 4 sprawls - shouldn't bee that much of an issue. If it is, just pump out Sacred Mesa tokens and pegasus them to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by strom
Secondly, I don't understand why you'd want to use words of wilding over sacred mesa. While it's only vulnerable to double engineered plague, I don't think it'd be that big a difference. Pegasuses fly, and that means you don't have to burn your own moat to kick some ass. Also, the ability to kill an opponent without passing the turn is always (maybe not always, but I cna't think of an example where it's advantageous) better than passing the turn.
I think that opening up to more hate from chalice (you really don't have to sweat until 3 hits, and by then you should have answered it or you deserve to lose) is a pretty poor option. I'd support ESG's (I'm very much against them) before I'd suggest more 1-drop acceleration enchantments. ESG allows you to get the mana when you need it (first turn enchantress, second turn moat, etc), as well as dodges daze. More utopia sprawls set to green seems like a poor idea. That is, of course, based on that I'm thinking about the ":g: : this land adds :g: to your pool when you tap it" as opposed to ":1: :g: : plays on a land, or some madness. Add 1 mana of any color to your pool." That one is an even worse idea. You want your first turn to be acceleration - either exploration, or spralw, or exploration sprawl. Not your turn to to be "acceleration, pass the turn (eat my face, lackey)."Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyBilly
The extra acceleration is unnecessary - I find that at times it sucks to drop a fetch and pass the turn, or, god forbid, live through the thrice-cursed "forest, go" first turn. Ugh.... While more acceleration might be kind of cool, there is no place for it in the deck where it stands.
I think I've been wrong on Library being better than Mirri's Guile. I've tried both out, and Guile seems stronger. For one thing, I very rarely have used Library for extra cards: either the four life isn't worth it, or I have an Enchantress affect out that will draw me the next cards anyways. On the other hand, I often wish Library was Guile when I have Confinement out. Library is just worthless crap at that point, and it costs more. Basically, I find myself wishing Library was Guile far more often than the other way around....and you can play Guile on the first turn.
Although I'm against the inclusion of WG, I wanted more acceleration to take care of combo. Chrome mox was not very impressive, though. Any thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
@ Guile
I support Guile, since I found myself to be stuck in 3 mana with the enchantress, and 1cc>>>>>>>2cc in those situations. Not being dead under confinement was also pretty good.
@Squee
I was running him for a while, and he served me well, but I cannot help but think that he does not deserve that extra space. I'd like to see him in multiples in SB, though.
I've been meaning to post in here for a while, but haven't gotten around to it until now. This is the Enchantress list Obfuscate Freely and I have been working on. It's obviously very different from most of the lists in this thread, but I'll do my best to explain the more unusual card choices.
3x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Living Wish
4x Exploration
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Wild Growth
4x Elephant Grass
4x Solitary Confinement
3x Sterling Grove
1x City of Solitude
1x In the Eye of Chaos
1x Seal of Cleansing/Primordium
1x Words of Wind
1x Dovescape
1x Replenish
3x Chrome Mox
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
5x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Savannah
2x Tropical Island
1x Plains
Sideboard
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Replenish
1x In the Eye of Chaos
1x Karmic Justice
1x Seal of Cleansing/Primordium
1x Argothian Enchantress
1x Meddling Mage
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gigapede
First of all, Living Wish is amazing. Its primary purpose is, of course, to allow the deck to run a full eleven Enchantresses, which is pretty good. Almost as relevant, however, is the ability to get Sanctum. This deck never draws Sanctum before it's good and always finds it when it wants to go off. Sanctum can't really fill a land slot, because it isn't effective until turn two or three, so it's essentially a mana source that fills a spell slot. That's acceptable, because Sanctum is so powerful, but Living Wish is better. Paying an extra 1G for the added versatility is well worth it. Wish also gives the deck access to a full set of Squees without having to run dead cards.
We also run a lot more acceleration than most builds. As I see it, the deck always wants to start drawing cards on turn three. That either means playing an Enchantress on turn two or playing an Enchantress on turn three with mana to spare. If the Enchantress in question is either Presence or Wish, that will require acceleration. With Wild Growth, the deck has eleven ways to generate mana to play an Enchantress that also draw cards for free after one is in play. Chrome Mox and ESG give the deck some explosive openings and sometimes let Wish get an Enchantress into play on turn two. Card disadvantage isn't really a problem, because if there's one resource this deck has in abundance, it's cards.
Blue is in the deck for In the Eye of Chaos (great anti-control card that happens to hose some combo decks), Meddling Mage in the sideboard (so that Wish can give it access to combo hate in game one), and Words of Wind. Blue could be cut for red, and Words of War would be a fine replacement for Words of Wind, but red doesn't really offer much else, so I think blue is the better call right now.
Dovescape serves two important functions: it can win the game or provide protection from pretty much everything, and sometimes does both. If you have a potentially vulnerable lock like Confinement + Squee, Dovescape can turn it into a hard lock. If you have a Words of Wind in play before playing Dovescape, you can bounce it so that it only counters your opponent's spells. Combined with one or more Enchantress effect, it is an effective win condition, especially against combo decks.
We don't run cards like Ghostly Prison or Moat, preferring instead to run full sets of the more efficient Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement. We also eschew Sylvan Library and Mirri's Guile, because this deck doesn't intend to see many upkeeps or draw steps. Those cards are good against control, but I think there are better options against control.
Most of the sideboard cards that are not fairly standard are things I have already mentioned. Chalice is our answer to both aggro-control and combo (the deck's worst matchup). Witness allows a second Wish to be a threat against control. Gigapede is generally used as a win condition after bouncing all of the opponent's permanents, though it might occasionally be decent on its own. Gigapede is probably the most questionable card in the board.
It should be stressed that this is a combo deck, but rather than win the game on turn four, it tries to assemble a combination of cards that shuts off the opponents ability to win the game, then finishes the game within the next few turns. The typical gameplan is:
Turn 1: Play acceleration.
Turn 2: Play an Enchantress.
Turn 3: Draw cards; play an Elephant Grass or Confinement if possible/necessary.
Turn 4-5: Draw cards, play some combination of Confinement/Grove/Enchantress.
Turn 6-7: Draw lots more cards, find Words of Wind and Wish for Sanctum, bounce the opponents permanents, play win condition.
Turn 8+: Bounce anything the opponent plays, attack with Gigapede or bird tokens, set up whatever additional protection might be relevant, win the game.
The typical Words of Wind combo in this deck works as follows. Start with one Exploration and at least two Enchantress effects in play, with one Exploration in hand. Play Serra's Sanctum using the Exploration in play, tap for a lot of white mana. Play Exploration; use two of the white mana to activate Words of Wind twice. Return Sanctum and the used Exploration. Play Sanctum using the newly played Exploration. Repeat a large number of times. As you run out of green mana to play Explorations, but generate a large amount of white mana, you can start returning a green source instead of Sanctum. Essentially, you pay :2::g: to untap a land, bounce two of the opponent's permanents, and draw a card for every Enchantress you control beyond the second.
There is no way to go infinite with Words of Wind in this deck, though a Cloud of Faeries in the board would give it one. This is not a problem since the above method will almost always bounce all of the opponent's permanents. Infinite mana plus a win condition that runs on mana would allow the deck to win in one turn, but that would only be relevant when it goes to time. I don't think it's worth finding room for Cloud and something like Ambassador Laquatus.
In summary, I've been very happy with this approach to the deck. There's still room for tweaking, but if I were to play Enchantress in a tournament tomorrow, this is the list I would use.
I remember the main critisizm hapy gilmore had was that there are only 16 lands in the deck but 4 exploration. I haven't tested the deck out but it seems like a fair critisizm, maybe I'll have to goldfish with your list later on this week.
Happy Gilmore complained to me as well about the land in his deck. I was however uninterested because after 30 minutes of complaining I kind of wanted to eat broken glass. But yeah, maybe the deck needs more land. And less bitching about it. I swear to you, I almost started stapling my arm to the table.