[Deck] RGB Survival Advantage (current builds)

I'd like to give this deck a bit of an explaination before you debunk it:

I play locals in Syracuse, New York. For anyone who doesn't live here, it's mostly just como and control right now, with a couple randoms playing decks like GB beats (I ran into a turn two spirit monger [1: forest, birds; 2: swamp, ritual, spirit monger]), or elves!. Thusly, I don't have to worry (almost) at all about my goblins matchup, or about agro/control. Once in a while I'll run into affinity or my own let-out Enchantress, but for the most part it's either Breakfast, Belcher, UWbg/UWg/UBw/UW landstill, or TES. Also, two or three survivals.

That said, I'm looking for a survival to keep the turn 4 wrath away, stop 8 1/1's on turn 1, live through humility, or PWN a huge sutured goul or kiki/hussar horde. I haven't tested this against anything other than my TES, a crappy Junk Pile variant that I will probably post later, and my UGw thresh (not hetfield thresh - more Bardo-y). It's mediocre so far, but I like how it works.

I'm not going to divide it with cool headers - It's in order from mana to beaters to utility to engine and discard:

4 Wooded Foothills
4Windswept Hills
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Nimble Mongoose/Basking Rootwalla (I haven't decided - rootwala adds some cool combat tricks, but the untargetability of the goose is hot)
1 Masticore
1 Triskelion (a 4/4 under humility - this is sometimes relevant)
1 Razormane Masticore (this guy has first strike. And lets me pitch extra land. He deals with goyf, and eats meddling magi and other little things. I'm not sure he should be not be another masticore. Or triskelion or something. Feedback?)
1 Spike Feeder
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Orcish Settlers
1 Tin Street Hooliga
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Zelot
3 Eternal Whitness
4 Cabal therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Squee, Genesis, Anger

Sideboard: (I'm not sure this is good)
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
4 Debated slots (needle? Engineered plague? more creatures?)

I like it okay so far. Dryad Arbor is pretty cool, to be able to pull up a land, to pitch a land to survival... I'm not sure he's worth the slot, but I haven't come to a verdict yet. Spike feeder isn't really necessary, I don't think. I wanted life gain for the goblins matchup, and I traded Baloths for 'goyfs, so I needed something. Turns out that I don't, so far. I've used him to make FTK's bigger to trade with thresh's goyfs. Redundancy with Rofellos's is pretty important, I believe. Di turned me onto it a while ago, and I like him in multiples. Him and the ranger and Masticore is pretty broken, against creatures. The ESG's were added at Matt Abold's suggestion - I was going to play lotus petals, to make goyf bigger quicker, or get that turn one survival. But it's cool that she pitches to survival if I have enough mana, and powers out the turn 1 rofellos (for the turn two FTK). I like the inclusion of the settlers, too. Makes landstill an eaiser matchup, what with how Geoff and Adam and Matt and Nick and... Tariq have all dropped crucible.

Zelot is in because I have a hard-on for killing enchantments. My teammate Matt Abold scooped to a meathooks at Kaddy's III because of a MD'd worship and a crystalyne sliver. Pretty weak. I like that he can just sit around, too, unlike the sex monkies. I'm not sure that the geese or rootwallas would be better off as fanatics - my 1-drop slot isn't too cloged, and he is pretty good. But then I'd need the fourth taiga. And then I'd get stupid. Remember the book "if you give a mouse a cookie"? He'd want some milk. And that milk would be like 4 bolts for removial, then I'd add something dumb like sharpshooters, and this and that... It'd approach rig-a-ma-role status awful quick. I'm pretty sure that the okaba-gang shinobi is too much, alot of the time, too. Ugh, it's late.

Let me know what you think I'm not dead set on it. But it looks cool, and goldfishes well.

Personally, I think Arbor is a risk thats not worth the reward, I would rather have a land that can't be Fanatic'd, Bolted, StP'd, than occasionally be able to fetchland into a blocker.

Okiba-Gang Shinobi, seems cool, its effect is awesome, but its fairly high casting and still pretty high ninjitsu cost, would probably cause me to steer away from using it. Again thats just me personally if you find it working then maybe its worth the inclusion.

I would probably replace one or two of the Masticore/Razormane/Triskelion slots with Bone Shredders so you have a quick cheap Tarmogoyf solution. All three of those cards are bombs, but I don't think you need all 3 of them, I can't think of a situation where you'd fetch them all, rarely would two be needed to regain control of the game. I would keep Masticore, cause its obscene with Rofellos and Ranger, which you're playing both of, and probably drop Razormane as the weakest, since its more or less a glorified more expensive colorless FTK. Triskelion vs a second Shredder would be up to how often you find yourself wishing you had another way to kill one big single creature vs a horde of little ones.

Only other choice I would think about is ESG over one of the mana Walls- Tinder or Roots, they essentially both provide you with acceleration, its just a question of whether you are finding yourself in the early game wishing you could resolve T1 Survivals or Goyfs, or whether you had an additional Blocker T1 to power you into T2/3 FTKs and Masticores. I think either option can work, in a Goblins light metagame maybe the walls are less desirable than the ESGs.

I would definitely lean towards Nimble Mongoose over Basking Rootwalla. Untargetability is huge. Nimble is a much stronger turn 1 play and once you have Survival online you don't really need free 1/1s, the surprise blockers are cute, but really with an active survival powering out Goyfs and FTKs will probably win fine w/o Basking Rootwalla.

I'm currently testing/running

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tinder Wall
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Flame-tongue Kavu
1 Masticore
1 Bone Shredder
1 Rofellos
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

5 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Taiga

SB:
4 Duress
3-4 Engineered Plague
2-3 Null Rod
2-3 Krosan Grip
1-2 Yilix Jailor
1 Goblin Pyromancer
0-1 Tin-street Hooligan
0-1 Big Game Hunter

I'm thinking of cutting 1 Confidant 1 Mongoose and 1-2 Tinder Wall and a Forest for 3-4 Mogg Fanatic and a 4th Taiga though.

My RGBSA list is a page back or so.

Recent thoughts:
FTK is getting worse. This makes me sad. Bone Shredder is getting better. Boo Tarmofat.

Yay Tarmogoyf. The deck's best way to win is to get a Survival online, and pump out a million Goyfs. Ravenous Baloth is getting worse, as well as FTK, because Goyf provides more fat for half the cost, and Red in general seems to be on the downswing, especially around here. If you see burn, leave in the Baloths. Otherwise....well, Goyf is just better a lot of the time.

Boo Tarmogoyf. Other people's Goyfs block our Goyfs. The nerve. That's what FTK is for, after combat, or Bone Shredder, to force through the damage. I am undecided as to which creature is actually better. If a FTK is countered after you attack, you might have to just take the hit from the opposing Goyf. Frowns. On the other hand, casting Bone Shredder before combat give you all the relevent information before you swing. Back to the first hand, though, FTK is a 4/2. But again on the second hand...Goyf provides most of the fat the deck needs. Extra fat is always great to have on hand, but where is the line between extra fat and extra speed (Boneshredder)?

Sword of Fire and Ice is back in my list as a 2-of for now, because my meta is overrun with Thresh, Landstill, and UW control. SoFI makes my Goyfs bigger than Thresh's Goyfs, and is a bomb against the Wrath-happy decks here.

Bombs in the deck: Survival x 4, Burning Wish x 4, Goyf x 4, Sword of Fire and Ice x 2,
Honorable Mentions: All those guys that nail other Goyfs: Boneshredder x2, FTK x (2-3), and Rofellos x 1.
Disruption, for the bombs: Duress x 3, Cabal Therapy x 3

In a deck with approximately one hundred million creatures, why is Therapy not a four of in the main? In Extended our aggro-loam lists had a 3/2 Therapy/Duress split for a while before we realized Therapy was basically just better and went to 4/1.

I agree Therapy x4, Duress xWhatever (personally boarding x4, but if one has room they seem ok in a 2-3 of MD).

Tarmogoyf combat is yet another reason why Mogg Fanatic is nuts. Swing with Goyf, opp blocks with Goyf, 2nd main phase, tutor Fanatic, own him for :g: :r:, rather than 5 mana of tutoring/casting Kavu.

I cut the Masticore/Quirion Ranger combo and another card (debating: 3rd FTK, Rofellos (due to lack of expensive cards, only 5 casted cards over 2 mana), 4th Confidant, 4th Tinder Wall) for Mogg Fanatic x3:
-Pro-Red isn't around that much
-Masticore is very mana intensive if not set up
-Quirion Ranger sucks on his own alot of the time
-Lackey on the play/draw solution
-Sacs to remove Bridges from Below
-Kills en-Kors and/or Illusionists

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Originally Posted by frogboy

In a deck with approximately one hundred million creatures, why is Therapy not a four of in the main? In Extended our aggro-loam lists had a 3/2 Therapy/Duress split for a while before we realized Therapy was basically just better and went to 4/1.

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Because the fourth Cabal Therapy is in the sideboard for Burning Wish to fetch. Against a lot of combo decks, Therapy is the best Wish target game one.

Mogg Fanatic is a great choice also. I hadn't considered him for the slot since before Goyf took off, but now his value has gone significantly up in the deck.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I agree Therapy x4, Duress xWhatever (personally boarding x4, but if one has room they seem ok in a 2-3 of MD).

Tarmogoyf combat is yet another reason why Mogg Fanatic is nuts. Swing with Goyf, opp blocks with Goyf, 2nd main phase, tutor Fanatic, own him for :g: :r:, rather than 5 mana of tutoring/casting Kavu.

I cut the Masticore/Quirion Ranger combo and another card (debating: 3rd FTK, Rofellos (due to lack of expensive cards, only 5 casted cards over 2 mana), 4th Confidant, 4th Tinder Wall) for Mogg Fanatic x3:
-Pro-Red isn't around that much
-Masticore is very mana intensive if not set up
-Quirion Ranger sucks on his own alot of the time
-Lackey on the play/draw solution
-Sacs to remove Bridges from Below
-Kills en-Kors and/or Illusionists

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Ok, first of all, you're way wrong. Quirion Ranger is totally a chick.

Secondly, I do believe that you might be right, in that dropping the numbers of rofellos is necessary (he's a 2-of ususally for me, on account of I like redundancy). Masticore just ins't the bomb you'd like him to be. I like running Triskellion in his place - no upkeep, slightly higher cost, and a 4/4 under humility (this is necessary). And he pumps goyf in the 'yard.

Just my two cents.

I've been seriously considering just about overhauling this deck lately. In my opinion, the addition of Tarmogoyf really changed the deck a lot. For one thing, I've been less and less impressed with Flametongue Kavu, as I'm constantly finding that there aren't a ton of targets for it, and with the Tarmogoyfs in there the 4/2 body isn't all that necessary. I've been thinking of dropping those down to 2 or maybe even 1, and replacing it with cheaper removal guys like Big Game Hunter and Bone Shredder that can hit Tarmogoyfs.

I've also been constantly being less impressed by Burning Wish, and eventually I kept adding cards I wanted to the SB for certain matchups and only had like 4-5 wish targets, which was just a waste. So I'm currently trying a build without Wish, since I was just finding it too slow. I think upping the count on Tin Street Hooligan might be a good idea to compensate for not having the Wish -> Hull Breach strategy.

Anyways, those are just observations I've had on the deck lately. I'm still working on a list that is more well tuned.

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

I like running Triskellion in his place - no upkeep, slightly higher cost, and a 4/4 under humility (this is necessary). And he pumps goyf in the 'yard.

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6 mana is alot, especially given the match up he shines in, Goblins, will be attacking your mana base. I don't know, it might be the right call. Regardless, if dropping Masticore, some artifact creature probably needs to find it's way into the deck to have access to the easy +1/+1 for Goyf.

I'm not that much of a Survival player, but in every deck I've tested Razormane Masticore has performed better than the original 'Core. Five damage of first strike plus three of "firstest strike" allows it to rule the combat phase like no other creature. The only time I've missed the original Masticore was 1) when an Exalted Angel or equipped Sea Drake was hitting in the air; 2) against Pernicious Deed.

The whole point of Masticore was to dump mana into it. Rofellos and Ranger and Seedborn produced an obscene amount of mana, and Masticore was the most efficient way to use that mana.

Also imo, Masticore is just a better card on its own.

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Originally Posted by CynicalSquirrel

I've been seriously considering just about overhauling this deck lately. In my opinion, the addition of Tarmogoyf really changed the deck a lot. For one thing, I've been less and less impressed with Flametongue Kavu, as I'm constantly finding that there aren't a ton of targets for it, and with the Tarmogoyfs in there the 4/2 body isn't all that necessary. I've been thinking of dropping those down to 2 or maybe even 1, and replacing it with cheaper removal guys like Big Game Hunter and Bone Shredder that can hit Tarmogoyfs.

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It sounds obvious...but Goyf really does fundamentally change how the deck plays.

Goblins, while always a difficult but winnable matchup, improves with Goyf, just like Goyf improved UGW Thresh's Goblins percentages.

In addition to that, the number of creatures that are in the deck for fat can drop. Unless I actually need the life, I always grab Goyf over Baloth or Kavu. He's just bigger, cheaper, and faster. I haven't even been setting up Rofellos as much as I used to. I mean, I only have one Squee...I can spend it grabbing an Anger and a Goyf and save a lot of set up time. Next turn, I grab another Goyf. After that, maybe the last two in the same turn.

The deck is a lot faster, and has a lot more early game with Goyf in it. Without Goyf, the deck still had an amazing late game, but the early game was SLOW while you set up mana and Survival. With Goyf, if you drop a bird into play on turn one, you start getting hasted Goyfs on turn three. Even without Bird, turn three you can find and cast a Goyf, turn four you can find Squee and Goyf, and turn five you find Anger and Goyf and go to town.

I mentioned it earlier, and Cynical Squirrel just mentioned it too....Flametongue Kavu is getting worse. He still kills Goyfs after combat, and Dark Confidant, and Negator, and Shade, and a whole list of creatures, but Bone Shredder (and soon Shriekmaw) do almost the same job. You certainly cannot cut Kavu, because of all of the Black creatures that need killing, but I find myself going for Boneshredder more often and beating through with Goyfs.

How does Tarmogoyf fit into a RGBSA deck? How does he affect the mana curve? Do you take out some of the mana accels for Goyfs?

Look at the past 2 pages of lists, he's been a part of most recent development of the deck. AngryTroll, lonelybaritone, and I all posted Goyf inclusive lists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

How does Tarmogoyf fit into a RGBSA deck?

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It fits in 4 of the creature slots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

How does he affect the mana curve?

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It generally lowers the mana curve, since its 2cc house and the old beaters were 4cc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Do you take out some of the mana accels for Goyfs?

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If one was running Werebear I certainly would replace it with Goyf. I don't see how using Goyf would incite someone to remove Birds, but if you keep your curve low there is less of a need for the secondary accelerators: Rofellos and Wall of Roots/Tinder Wall/Llanowar Elves.

I had the idea to include thresh creatures [Mongoose and Bear] into the deck for quicker answers that grow as the game goes on.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7007

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

I like running Triskellion in his place - no upkeep, slightly higher cost, and a 4/4 under humility (this is necessary). And he pumps goyf in the 'yard.

Just my two cents.

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How is Triskelion a 4/4 under Humility? Humility stops comes into play abilities, so shouldn't Triskelion loose the counter making ability?

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Originally Posted by Xero

How is Triskelion a 4/4 under Humility? Humility stops comes into play abilities, so shouldn't Triskelion loose the counter making ability?

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Something about it being "Comes into play with" instead of "when it comes into play." Trust me, it works. Like how the clockwork things work. I almost wanted to run the clock work beetle (or whatever - the 0/0 with 2 +1/+1 counters) in our meta. Humility is pretty hard for survival to, y'know, win under.

Humility is really hard to play around. Grip helps, but isn't enough. It's reason enough to keep red for anger. Unlimited, hasty goyfs is an excellent way to beat control. 'scept, of course, if they have Echoes or something weak like that.

I ran my old version of this deck at a local event and x-o'ed. I did change the sideboard to have graveyard hate , and main deck had some too. I played an exterpate, but I never drew it, lol. I think that card is amazing in a deck that can run with anything like this. I replaced some discard for the exterpate. I might drop my wishes, but they keep getting me out of jams. I dont know.... I went crazy recently but I keep winning magic with this deck.

Hi,

I'm mostly reading on this forum, but now I want to write something about my favourite deck, since this thread looks so dead...

I played Gbw Survival for a while, but it got boring, because the deck feels somehow... slow... or clunky... even with Goyf you don't put enough pressure on your opponent, so I decided to speed it up. I removed all defensive cards (Wall of Blossom, Tribe Elder..) from my old list and ended up with this:

Maindeck:

4x Bayou
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Mountain


4x Birds of Paradise
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Spike Feeder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Bone Shredder

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Survival of the Fittest
2x Senseis Divining Top


Sideboard:

4x Duress
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Extirpate
2x Vindicate
2x Krosan Grip

(Don't think about the Prisons in SB. It was just a test if they can substitute Plagues, because Prisons are good in every Aggro-matchup, where Plagues only shine against Goblins. I declared this test as a failure the moment I was paired against Elves...)
I played the deck in the german "Bazaar of Wonders Tournament" (77 participants) and finished 7th with a 5-1-1 record:

1. round: Asault Loam (2:1)
2. round: Baseruption (1:1) //this deck is very popular in Germany
3. round: 2Land Belcher (2:1) //he played without EtW...
4. round: 8Pox (2:0)
5. round: Yin-Yang (2:0)
6. round: Elves (0:2)
7. round: Burn (2:0)

There are some things about the deck I'd like to discuss:

1. What do you think about the Spike Feeder ?
I play it because its cheap lifegain (and I wanted at least 2 lifegaining critters in the deck), it fits better to the mana curve, recurring it with Genesis is cheaper than Baloth, and last but not least: it gives me a way to deal with opposing Goyfs (mine are just bigger).

2. Should I play a 3rd Taiga (instead of a forest)?
Or otherwise, is 5 basics enough ? I never had the problem of not having a mountain when I had Anger, but I rarely had to fight massive Land Destruction (although I player against Pox and Sui).

3. Is Duress better in the MD that Therapy?
Since most of my creatures are needed on the board, I mostly don't want to flashback Therapy (loosing a Goyf/Confident...) is really hard. In my Gbw build, I hab no problems saccing a wall or Elder, but here...

4. Do you think Krosan Grip is necessary?
I rarely boarded it in, most of the time I preferred Vindicate, since nearly every card I play is a must-counter für Threshold- or Landstill-Decks, so Split Second is mostly irrelevant.

5. Should I play Pithing Needles?
With Belcher becoming more and more popular here, an early Needle should buy me enought time to either stop the combo or to beat face.

As for your questions, here's what my experience tells me:

[1] If you're simply concerned about the life gain, I would probably use the tech which I saw Taco using earlier: Darkheart Sliver. Synergy with Harmonic Sliver and only costs two mana. However, the reason I run Ravenous Baloth or its G/W equivalent, Loxodon Hierarch, in the first place is that it doubles as a threat. I would only choose one of the following: Baloth, Hierarch, Feeder, or Darkheart. Take your pick.

[2]Your call. Sorry can't be of more help.

[3]Therapy by far. Thepary is the card I most like to see against decks like Landstill and has uses against Goblins too (unlike Duress). I usually hold off on Therapies until I attempt to resolve Survival. Playing one midgame often pulls two cards against control or Aggro-Control. Against Gobbos, if you live past the first turn Vial or Lackey, the next choice is Warchief or Ringleader depending on their curve. You still have a lot of cards to pitch to its Flashback even though you don't have STE or the Wall anymore.

Like the following:
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Bone Shredder
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Spike Feeder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
3x Eternal Witness
4x Birds of Paradise

[4]I've always felt that threat density wise, Survival is lacking. Thus, Survival has a weak control match-up. There are just a lot of bullets that don't do too much. There really isn't anyway to gain card advantage aside from resolving a Bob or Survival. That said, I don't think every card you play is must counter. Grip definitely helps ridding the board of Pernicious Deed, Counterbalance (the Top activation), and pesky Leyline of the Voids.

[5] Your choice. The combo match-up blows. I'd just given up on it though I'd seen somebody running Peacekeeper so EtW tokens can't attack. That does require you to hit your land drops and have Survival to search it out consistently. Just wait for Gaddock Teeg to help you out when Lorwyn becomes legal.

Hope this helps.
~Tog