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Originally Posted by urdjur
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Originally Posted by urdjur
This combo is far beyond from the ridiculous. They will have to fix Flash, or ban it.
Since he was playing it at a GPT I presume it wasn't running Future Sight cards, yes? Summoner's Pact and Pact of Negation both up the deck's power level a great deal. It seems like 4 more free hard counters and 4 more ways to find one of your combo pieces would go a long way in protecting yourself from opposing countermagic, as well as Duress. What do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by URABAHN
Dear God, thank you for actually understanding this. I award you six lesbian points. Not certain as of yet what these are redeemable for, but nonetheless. Pinder LP = Pinder LP + 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Arcbound Ravager, Kiki/Sky Hussar, etc, all suck worse than the Quad Disciple Crush (tm) for the reason listed above. You can't Swords anything, you can't Needle anything, you can't Sudden Shock anything, and so forth. With this build, If Flash resolves, one of the following things happens:
1. Your opponent dies.
2. They Stifle/Trickbind Protean Hulk and you don't have a counter or don't resolve your counter.
3. They've got Solitary Confinement/Ivory Mask on the board and you're stupid for playing Flash.
4. They do something absolutely ridiculous, like Angel's Grace or Heroes' Reunion, that causes you to die to your own Pact.
I've been playing this deck nonstop to prepare just in case Flash does stay as it is. I've wrecked a lot of top tier shit, then died horribly to Landstill combining Stifle/Force/Extirpate (Extirpate is BAD!), and lost one game to a bizarre BGW Loam deck when I had a slow hand and they dropped an Overgrown Estate. The format will indeed be far far far better off if Flash gets altered.
I also think the true nature of the card is to give a creature you control Flash, not to completely dwarf Sneak Attack. And I think that's what they're going to aim for. Or I hope so.
So what would you do if you draw 2 or more Disciples? Would you dig for a Brainstorm or just go off?
BTW, how would this deck combat discard? Isn't that a major problem, because you can't exactly use Pact of Negation on that?
EDIT: Isn't there a better name than Hulk Flash? Something like Disciple of the Hulks? I dunno...
I was testing this on MWS last night , and I think the best part is that you win before they have a chance to <system player lost>.
I think if anything they WON'T errata this, but will instead ban it come june 1st when they have indicated they will be looking at legacy banned list.
I don't think the deck is good enough without FS cards, but it's possible it may show at GP.
Children of Korlis and Leyline of the Void would probably be the best way to hate on this deck, since Leyline can't be countered (and Korlis is difficult to Pact) and they double as respectively Tendrils hate and graveyard hate. They're both vulnerable to Mystical -> Chain of Vapor, though.
Also, regarding the possible hate for this absolutely broken combo...
I'm assuming you mean Mage set to Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla
As far as I know, Plague doesn't disrupt the combo, because the 0/0 Disciples would die as a state-based effect exactly at the same time as the robots, and so they will still trigger for the life loss effect.
If they play Angel's Grace, it only means they die as a state-based effect at the beginning of the next upkeep, far before the Pact trigger resolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
If they play Heroes' Reunion, you just need to fetch ALL combo pieces. The most common choice seems to be 7 robots and 4 Disciples. 7x4=GG (although Nourishing Lich might actually get out of life loss range... there is just too much irony in this thread).
Anyway, yes, I'm putting my money on banning/errata. A combo deck that is vulnerable to very little hate, can win on turn 0, and runs 8 Forces of Will? I admit I was initially skeptical, but now, please sign me up.
I did indeed mean Mage set to Flash, since it obviously does nothing against Disciple. I didn't realize the SBE thing, but I guess you're right that they all go to the yard at the same time. So outside of countermagic you basically have a very few barely played permanents that hate on you, all of which are easily answerable with Chain of Vapor, if they even resolve in the first place. Ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
They won't change the wording on Flash after changing it because of it working on MTGO during the Mirage release. If they errata it in physical format again, they have to do it in digital, and the original wording of the card (most current) is the easiest way for them to program it on there.
As for banning, I seriously doubt it. Being a combo player, I personally think this deck is far from being "optimal" enough to wreck GPs and the like in the near future. At best it'll be a Tier 1 deck, but I'm highly doubting resilient and consistent enough to get Flash banned.
Yeah, he was going with the whole 8x Mirage Tutor dealio. Pact of Negation would definitely be helpful since you don't need another blue card to make it work. Pact of Summoning would be far superior to Wordly Tutor since it puts Protean Hulk right into your hand. His sideboard was terrible, he didn't use it much, and he really didn't know what the hell to side out!Quote:
Originally Posted by GodzillA
4 Psychic Purge (anti-discard measure)
4 Duress
4 Chain of Vapor
3 ??? (don't remember)
No, there has never been a better or more appropriate name for a deck than "Hulk Flash." What's even better is that no one resorted to the stupid "Combo Cereal" convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opterown
I did a 100 games goldfishing with the deck, to check the average fundamental turn. The results are nice, although I hate that sometimes you just don't get to play... in that you draw a hand without tutors or draw, then mulligan into others like that, and end up playing solely at the mercy of the topdeck. Anyway:
A) 50 games on the play:
Turn 1 without counters: 3
Turn 1 with 1 counter: 1
- Total turn 1 on the play: 4
Turn 2 without counters: 6
Turn 2 with 1 counter: 10
Turn 2 with 2 counters: 1
- Total turn 2 on the play: 17
Turn 3 without counters: 6
Turn 3 with 1 counter: 7
Turn 3 with 2 counters: 2
- Total turn 3 on the play: 15
Turn 4 with 1 counter: 2
Turn 4 with 2 counters: 3
Turn 4 with 3 counters: 1
- Total turn 4 on the play: 6
Turn 5+: 8
B) 50 games on the draw:
Turn 1 without counters: 5
Turn 1 with 1 counter: 7
Turn 1 with 2 counters: 2
- Total turn 1 on the draw: 14
Turn 2 without counters: 5
Turn 2 with 1 counter: 14
Turn 2 with 2 counters: 1
- Total turn 2 on the draw: 20
Turn 3 without counters: 3
Turn 3 with 1 counter: 2
Turn 3 with 2 counters: 2
Turn 3 with 4 counters: 1
- Total turn 3 on the draw: 8
Turn 4 with 1 counter: 1
Turn 4 with 2 counters: 1
Turn 4 with 3 counters: 1
- Total turn 4 on the draw: 3
Turn 5+: 5
This is the list I used:
// Lands
2 [PR] Underground Sea
6 [UNH] Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
3 [SH] Shifting Wall
1 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [VI] Phyrexian Marauder
3 [DIS] Protean Hulk
// Spells
2 [HL] Merchant Scroll
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MI] Flash
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [PR] Brainstorm
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
Because this is really just a case of Flash being able to do something unintended, as opposed to doing exactly what it is supposed to with unintended consequences (Necromancy/Worldgorger Dragon), it will probably be errata'd to go back to its previous wording.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
An interesting developement;
SCG is completely sold out of all copies of Flash from 6th edition and Mirage. According to their card counts for other junk rares, that would be in the hundreds sold at $1. I just thought that was funny.
As for the deck itself, could the CitP for the Hulk be responded to with StP or Shadow of Doubt? Also, what's the plan for Chalice or Meddling Mage or the less likely, Duress->Exterpate.
Yea, I noticed that too. A couple days ago they had like 200+, now they're down to zero. I find that amusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by android
Cardshark still has a bunch of them, though. And an EBay seller still has it as a $0.01 "Buy Now" offer (plus shipping costs, though). Get your four-of! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by android
No, Hulk comes into play and dies all during the resolution of Flash. You can only respond to his death trigger (with stuff like Stifle or Trickbind).Quote:
As for the deck itself, could the CitP for the Hulk be responded to with StP or Shadow of Doubt? Also, what's the plan for Chalice or Meddling Mage or the less likely, Duress->Exterpate.
Chalice, to be effective, has to be set at 2, in order to counter Flash. Meddling Mage obviously names Flash. Extirpate wins the game if it nails either Flash, Protean Hulk, or Disciple of the Vault (the last one assuming there aren't any in play yet). Though Protean Hulk could theoretically be hardcast, it's highly unlikely.
yes, shadow of doubt will shut down protean hulk. I've been wanting to try it in legacy for a long time, but never found the right deck for it.
counters tutors and fetches and cantrips? seems sexy.
Good morning,
I'm the individual who was running the Flash combo at the GP Columbus Trial in Roanoke, as URABAHN reported earlier in this thread.
To begin, I am not a competitive Legacy player, although I've been playing Magic since the mid-90's. I'm only slightly familiar with the archetypes in the current meta, through reading articles and conversations with actual Legacy players. Due to this, I had zero intention of heading to the GP Trial yesterday...
However, while bored on Friday, I was messing around on MWS with the Threshold build that was recently discussed at mtgsalvation.com. I ended up playing against someone running the Phyrexian Marauder/Shifting Wall strain of this deck, along with the Pacts from Future Sight. He beat me on turn two twice in a row, so I took notes on what he was playing, and rebuilt it.
After considerable testing, I realized there were some issues, and decided to tweak out what he was running. I dropped Chrome Mox, as it was forcing me to lose cards, and switched in Lotus Petal. I dropped Merchant Scroll, as it was too slow, and switched in Mystical Tutor. I experimented with a couple draw mechanisms, but settled on Brainstorm (to dodge discard effects).
I went 47-3 in games (not matches) over the next few hours, winning the majority of my games on turn 2, and a few of my games on turn 1.
At this point, I knew my friend was heading down to Roanoke, and that he needed a ride. I figured if I could make the deck legal, I would have a legitimate shot at a win, so I switched in Daze for the blue Pact and Worldly Tutor for the green Pact.
It was a little slower, but I was still winning on turn 2 more than half the time.
At this point, I playtested with a few players I respected, and asked them about my sideboard. We settled on Duress, for the control match-up, and Chain of Vapor, for anything resolved that would give me trouble. From there, we discussed disenchant effects, but that seemed redundant with the Chains. Realizing I was going to have serious difficulty sideboarding ANYTHING out, I decided to just fill out the rest of the sideboard as a joke...so we threw in Psychic Purges as a nod to Hymn players, and I threw in Extirpates, everybody's favorite overhyped instant.
I borrowed the maindeck from various resources, but ended up a few short, so I called Star City to make sure they had the Marauders and Flash in stock. They did, so I locked myself as the driver, and rolled down to the Trial...
Only 15 players showed up, but they were mostly quality, running decks like Goblins, Fairy Stompy (sp?), Iggy Pop, Affinity, and R/G aggro. My friend Chris was running Kevin Binswanger's U/W/R Pyroclasm deck, which had a pretty horrible match-up against me.
Here's how the games went...
MATCH ONE:
Ricky was playing some kind of black aggro. His deck didn't look very competitive, but maybe I just didn't see enough of it. Game one, I won the roll, and I saw swamp/Bonesplitter from him, before I went off on turn 2. Game two, I saw swamp/Bonesplitter on turn one, then swamp/Dark Ritual into some kind of Dauthi plus an Unholy Strength. I used Elvish Spirit Guide at the end of his second turn to put the Hulk on top of my deck with Worldly Tutor, drew into it on my second turn, and went off.
We finished both games, with shuffling, in four minutes...the judges hadn't even dropped the slips for us yet. I went up the desk to report, and the judge looked very confused and said, "Already?" when I said my match was over.
MATCH TWO:
Ben Wong was playing Smokestacks, which I figured would be a great match-up for me, considering I could easily win with one land in play. Game one, I had to mulligan to five, but I still went off on turn 2, before he was able to do anything at all. Game two, I had to mulligan to six, and then stalled out until turn 4, with the following situation...
He had four lands, and a resolved Smokestacks with one counter on it, and passed to me. I was holding Elvish Spirit Guide, Worldly Tutor and Flash, with a Lotus Petal and an Underground Sea in play. Recalling an article I had read a long time ago, about mana in your pool from your upkeep not burning you until the end of your draw phase, I asked my opponent if mana flowed into the draw phase, and he told me no. I called a judge, and he told me yes, so I did the following...
During my upkeep, I popped the Petal, and cast Worldly Tutor, putting the Hulk on top. I then put a blue in my pool with the Sea, and sacrificed it to the Smokestack trigger. I drew the Hulk, and then, at the end of my draw phase, used the Spirit Guide to give me another point of mana, and Flashed for the win. I think that's the first time I've ever won a game during my draw phase.
MATCH THREE:
Joey Dial was playing Affinity, and had Disciples maindeck. This is where my inexperience with the format and a serious lack of preparation really did me in.
Game one, I didn't mulligan aggressively enough, and by the time I pulled the combo together, he had a few Disciples in play, and had enough damage on the board to kill me next turn. I decided to go for the draw, and went off...but I neglected to realize that non-active players effects go on the stack first, and I died to his Disciple triggers before my triggers resolved to kill him.
Game two, he resolved three Disciples off topdecks, and I could not go off fast enough. By the time I could, he was holding a Fling with an Atog and a ton of artifacts in play. He tapped for red and blue before sacrificing everything he had to the Atog. Having not played against Fling in years, I couldn't remember its casting cost or even if it was an instant (afterwards, I was told I can ask a judge for the Oracle text for any card), but I did name it and consider it in trying to figure out if he was holding it. I figured he might be bluffing as a last ditch effort, so I tried calling him on it...but he had it, it cost exactly what he had, and I died due to the non-active, active thing all over again.
So now I had the experience I was missing, and I was confident I would make top 4, giving me a shot to exact some vengeance on Joey, now that I knew his tricks.
However...
MATCH FOUR:
I was paired up against Chris Barfield, the guy I gave a ride to, who had been working towards the Grand Prix for months, experimenting with various decks until settling on a strategy and fine-tuning it for the past four weeks. I had zero intention of going to the Grand Prix, had come to the tournament to win product, and figured, eh, let the Legacy player go to the Legacy tournament. I conceded to him, and then we played two games for fun.
I went off on turn 2 twice in a row, and beat him 2-0.
He then promptly lost his first game in the Top 4 to the eventual winner, who I would have crushed, as he was playing an aggro deck with no means to disrupt me.
I played a couple fun games, as URABAHN mentioned, and shared the deck list with anyone who asked. For those of you who are curious, this is exactly what I ran...
DECK NAME: FLASH GORDON (much better than Hulk Flash, ya'll)
4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
4 Phyrexian Marauders
4 Shifting Wall
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
The one-of Island, off a Strand or Delta, is to dodge Wasteland. All day long, I felt like the Seas should have been Breeding Pools, as I kept getting stuck without green mana when it would have let me go off on the next turn (this won't be a problem when Future Sight comes around).
This build is fair superior to the Ravager build, as Pithing Needle doesn't shut it down.
The only catch with this deck is that you HAVE to mulligan aggressively, otherwise you will lose games. I did well in this regard three out of four matches, but sketched on my match-up with Joey Dial (and so I lost). I've gone down to four cards on the draw and pulled off a first-turn kill, so don't be scared of the mulligan!
In all honesty, the only decks that have given me trouble in the hundreds of matches of played over the past few days were Landstill (which I would need to practice against some more, as it runs Stifle and a lot of counters, making it a good candidate for sideboard hate), and the Affinity deck, although now that I understand the interactions, I'm not as worried about that match-up anymore.
And so, my verdict...
This deck is broken. I'm not new to Magic, but considering I've only played in one other Legacy tournament in my life (which, oddly enough, I won with Goblin Bombardment + Enduring Renewal), it seems a little weird I could just walk on the scene and pretty much take a Trial. I'm 99% sure I would have won the event without the concession, and I say that with humility (it's the deck, not me).
If this stays legal, it will be all over the place at the GP, and I wouldn't surprised if it wins the whole thing. My honest guess is that the errata will be reverted or changed again, based on feedback from judges and players.
And that's the scoop.
I'd never thought I'd say this, but it looks like the only thing can save Legacy right now is Engineered Plague on Clerics.
And just when you thought you knew the meaning of the word "ridiculous", some idiot at mtgsalvation decides to throw some Gemstone Caverns in there, and reports a 25% chance of going off on turn 0. It's the 2nd decklist on the opening post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=75263
Despite the apparent speed and resiliency of this archetype, I really don't see why this would warrant baning or further errata. In my opinion (and maybe this is fact), there are Legacy decks that are as fast (Iggy, TES, etc.) and decks that are more resilient (Goblins, Thresh, etc.). This deck can be pure combo or combo/control but in the end, the broken card that allows the insta-win is not Flash, but DotV. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they won't errata it on May 1st.