I like your list a lot, not so sure about basic lands though. I also prefer MD Therapies but we're basically running the same list except you have +4 confidant and I have +3 therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by arvid
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I like your list a lot, not so sure about basic lands though. I also prefer MD Therapies but we're basically running the same list except you have +4 confidant and I have +3 therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by arvid
You always need access to basics. The swamp however I find uneeded Change to another forrest. Also I usually find 3 wasteland to be sufficient. Swap the 4th to another cycle land, basic, or utility land.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
This is my current build on an aggro/controllish Loam deck.The side is designed to beat Combo,which is the only matchup that Aggro Loam does not beat very Well.I am not sure about whether Crusher or Terravore is better,cutting Witness could be an option,but she does something none of the huge beatsticks do.Barbarian Ring can be good,but it could also be a basicland.I like to have both Genesis and Stronghold,maybe one of those can be cut.Dark Confidant is very good,not sure if it could replace Witness.Seismic Assault is a card that is insane once you have the loaming going on,but it is quite useless at other times.It's manacost is also a bit difficult in a three-color deck.The Firestorms are good in certain situations,but sometimes they are just Dead,2 seem fine.I've also cut DD from the main,don't know if it's the right call.Let me know what you think.
Lands(25)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
Creatures(17)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Terravore/Countryside Crusher
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw
Sorceries(11)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
Instants(2)
2 Firestorm
Artifacts(6)
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Deathmark
1 Reverent Silence
1 Regrowth
3 Duress
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
You're right, I messed up, it (the Swamp) looks totally out of place in that list. I'm now playtesting with 3 Wooded Foothills, 3 Bloodstained Mire, and havn't had any problems with it so far, even against decks with Wastelands, such as white Stax and BG Suicide.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDunkin00
I must say I am intrigued by the suggestion of MD Chalice of the Void in Loam. It would let me drop Black altogether, it's much better than Thoughtseize against combo (Thorn or Sphere can sub for Duress in the side), and the deck has zero 1cc spells anyway.
The big problem is that Mox Diamond is the only way to drop a Turn 1 Chalice, since both Chrome Mox and City of Traitors are terrible in this deck. I'm still going to test it, though, since against combo I'll just drop it at zero and against non-combo deck it's still fine on turn two.
Oh, and for the record: I strongly recommend 3x Engineered Explosives in the maindeck. They're generally great, but more importantly they deal with the most common maindeck threat to your engine, i.e. the CounterTop combo.
Except that they can easily be stopped by the decks that run that combo (either by CB, Needle, Spell Snare, or Explosives @0 if you try to drop it early) more easily than other solutions like Deed, Krosan Grip, or Wish -> Reverant Silvence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
I'm not really arguing against Explosives since it's so versatile (I run 2 in my Loam build) but it is not the best CB answer.
After testing the g/b/r version with Countryside Crusher I've come to the conclusion that Loam is the worst card in the deck. Has anyone explored the idea of cutting it down to 2 or even completely? I honestly don't know of any games that I've won due to it, nor have there been games where if I didn't have it I would have lost.
Also, I'd much rather play something better against combo on turn 2 other than chalice. I'm not sure that chalice is the best answer for the combo matchup.
I play Wish -> Silence, but that will never pass through Counterbalance unless you preemptively Wish for it (they will always keep a 2cc spell on top to counter Loam). Grip of course is the best, but that's a sideboard option.
EE is immune to Counterbalance and Spell Snare (just overpay on it), and it's not a common Needle target - they usually and correctly go for Seismic Assault. EE@0 can blow it up, but not often: you only need five mana to play and blow EE in the same turn.
@Zulander: :confused:? Can you please go into more detail as to why Loam is 'the worst card in your deck'? I seriously can't imagine how you could have had that perception.
I'm not sure the allure of Chalice of the Void is strictly as an anti-combo card. I think the allure of Chalice of the Void is that, outside of the discard, the deck doesn't really run anything of consequence that costs 1.
Chalice of the Void might open up a cutting of black for those of us who don't want to run Dark Confidant in this deck. The problem with it is that it leaves hands that don't catch a Mox Diamond feeling fairly vulnerable. Lack of 1-drops are a dangerous thing, and cards like Elvish/Simian Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal just don't seem like a fantastic idea in this deck.
Sure, I'll list the non-mana cards my deck plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
1. Wild Mongrel
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Terravore
4. Countryside Crusher
5. Dark Confidant
6. Shriekmaw
7. Genesis (Ok, so this doesn't actually count lol)
8. Cabal Therapy
9. Thoughseize
10. Burning Wish
11. Life from the Loam
Okay, now I want you to go through these cards and list them 1 - 10, 1 being best 10 being worst. What cards would you like to play most? Which one least? Here's the order I'd put them in:
1-3
Goyf/Crusher/Terravore
4-7
Thoughseize/confidant/burning wish/ mongrel
8-10
loam/therapy/shriekmaw.
Do you see why I don't even think loam is necessary? The deck doesn't rely on loam abuse anymore and I think I'll drop it down to a 2 of in the deck with the third in the board to wish for.
Wow, I completely disagree with you zulander. Mongrel, Terravore, and Crusher are all made insane by loam. Without it they really aren't that good. Also Loam is also the draw engine of your deck which actually allows you to draw and plays these cards, which means that in your rankings it actually goes to #0.
Kronicler
Listing Terravore and Countryside Crusher ahead of Loam is both assinine and absurd considering that both are significantly weaker without Loam making them workable. As an example, Tarmogoyf might be the best creature in magic, but it's a shitty selection if you don't run green mana to enable it. As such is the relationship (albeit to a lesser degree) between T-Vore and CC to Life From The Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
Not to mention that you left out Devastating Dreams. But for the record, I'll order it for you.
1. Life From The Loam
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Burning Wish
4. Countryside Crusher
5. Thoughtseize
6. Terravore
Here we have a distant cliff where I could add about six other cards. Devastating Dreams for one. Seismic Assault for two.
7/8. Mongrel/Confidant, in some order
9 Million. The rest, which I wouldn't play.
Well, if you don't run Devastating Dreams or Seismic Assault, then yes, I can see why you're left without much Loam synergy anymore. Do you even have Wasteland and/or cycling lands? (And incidentally, doesn't Mongrel suck bollocks without Life from the Loam?)
Anyway, I don't like the idea of bending the deck in order to let it work without Loam. It is an approach that works well with Survival, but there are two major differences here:
1) Survival is much more difficult to protect. It's a 1G enchantment that can be countered, destroyed, discarded, or Needled, and all you can do to get it back is topdeck a Witness. Life from the Loam is immune to everything except Chalice and Counterbalance (EE solves those, sometimes a preemptive Burning Wish too, and postboard you have Grip too if you want), and post-SB Extirpate and Leyline (solved by Burning Wish and Krosan Grip, respectively; once in a blue moon EE@4). That makes protecting Loam a far more viable plan.
2) You can't run more than four Survivals, except with Enlightened Tutor. You can run seven Loams with ease, and actually more with Gamble (although Crusher IMO makes Gamble unnecessary nowadays).
3) You can just play a bunch of good creatures and Survival is still insane. If you start just playing a bunch of good creatures, like you do, then you see what happens: Loam gets mediocre, and you end up playing a slightly tweaked Rock deck.
I'm not interested in playing Rock. I want to play broken.
Incidentally, I realize I've never actually posted my current list. Here it is:
// Lands
4 [PR] Taiga
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [PR] Badlands
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Terravore
4 [MNT] Countryside Crusher
// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [8E] Seismic Assault
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives (still not sure if I can cut a land for the 3rd)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [OD] Last Rites
I play only 2 LftL MD and I often SB out 1 after G1. But I play 4*wish + 4*gamble. Gamble is good because it provides what lacks you into your opening hand (LftL, wasteland, cycling land, chalice against combo, stronghold, a big guy), a solution when you are desperately locked or a kill when you have a hand full of lands.
Two questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
1. Is 4 Chalice of the Void the right number? I assume you aren't running 4 Seismic Assaults on the premise that multiples are useless. In this particular deck, doesn't the same principle apply to Chalice?
2. Is the black splash worth it, strictly for maindeck EE and sideboard Thoughtseize? To me, the primary reason to run the black splash is the discard and Volrath's Stronghold, and your list runs neither maindecked.
If you go the chalice route then yes, 4 is a must.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
No. If you play black you should be playing 4 thoughtseize and 1-3 therapies main.Quote:
2. Is the black splash worth it, strictly for maindeck EE and sideboard Thoughtseize? To me, the primary reason to run the black splash is the discard and Volrath's Stronghold, and your list runs neither maindecked.
Actually, that's only part of the reason I don't run 4 Assaults: it's also because it's usually the very last card I play off my hand, since the creatures are best dropped early (even Terravore). Plus it's the card that loses the most when you can't find a Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
It's true that this deck only really wants to set Chalice@1, because any other setting would almost always hurt you more than then. But unless the opponent shows an Ancient Tomb, it's also your very first play any time you see it in your opening hand. I can see cutting one, like some Stax builds play just 3 Trinispheres.
Notice that this black splash consists of exactly 1 Badlands. I can do that safely since Wasteland is not exactly a problem in matchups where I need early-game discard; plus there's Mox Diamond.Quote:
2. Is the black splash worth it, strictly for maindeck EE and sideboard Thoughtseize? To me, the primary reason to run the black splash is the discard and Volrath's Stronghold, and your list runs neither maindecked.
I'm almost positive that discard is inferior to Chalice as a maindeck option, because it's much less synergistic with your pressure/mana denial plan, and because it does less to shore up tough matchups like Burn/Sligh or Storm combo. It's still the best option as backup disruption, though: your biggest fear are fast combo decks, against which it's imperative to maximize your chances of turn 1 interaction, so Thorn of Amethyst and friends aren't reliable enough.
I must shamefully confess that I had completely forgotten about Volrath's Stronghold. Genesis and Witness sucked so much and Nostalgic Dreams was so insane that I didn't even take into consideration the existence of other recursion engines. I'm finding a spot for it ASAP.
Nihil: Unless your metagame is pikula.dec and randomaggro.dec I don't know why you've made some of these choices. Here's my opinions on your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
1. 1 badlands for EE and Thoughtseize in the board?
2. Thoughtseize main, Chalice board. You're going to need thoughtseize much more against the average metagame than you would chalice.
3. Mana base seems good enough to not roll over and cry against wastelands.
4. 31 mana sources... That's way too many imho.
5. 11 creatures? What happens when your opponent decides to play magic too?
6. Devasting dreams? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but this card is just turrable(thank you Charles Barkley lol). Unless you have zero blue decks in your metagame I can't see why you'd play this.
7. Seismic Assault seems eh I guess, how has it been?
It's 130 am for me and if I missed something completely obvious I'm sorry.
Without a healthy amount of discard, do you ever run into problems with people countering your Wish too often and leaving you Loamless?
Yep. That's 10 black mana sources in the deck - it might be a bit short for t1 Thoughtseize, but not by much.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
Disagree, unless by 'average metagame' you mean a combo-dominated one comboish. Thoughtseize (which is really just a turn 1 play, every other turn you have better things to do with your mana) takes a single answer out of your opponent's hand. Chalice not only hits the most commonly played answer card in the format, it shuts down your opponent's cheap spells: that is, it takes away their consistency, and ability to recover from Wastelock or Devastating Dreams.Quote:
2. Thoughtseize main, Chalice board. You're going to need thoughtseize much more against the average metagame than you would chalice.
I cut a land at some point and I'm still not sure it was the right choice. Keep in mind Mox Diamonds are acceleration, not mana sources, and cycling lands only count so much.Quote:
3. Mana base seems good enough to not roll over and cry against wastelands.
4. 31 mana sources... That's way too many imho.
I don't care about their creatures - they can keep a couple of 3/3 if I have a 10/10 (Incidentally, this is where Chalice shines). The exception is Goblins, which is fast enough to just swarm over my fatties - that matchup actually devolves down to 'Assault, Dreams, or die'. The deck used to SB Firestorm when Goblins was the top deck, and it might return to that.Quote:
5. 11 creatures? What happens when your opponent decides to play magic too?
Note that Seismic Assault is a win condition too, and often the best one.
Forgive me for disagreeing that 'unfair Armageddon + completely one-sided Wrath' is terrible. Not to mention it's your #1 weapon against Goblins, especially now that they have Weirding to answer traditional blockers.Quote:
6. Devasting dreams? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but this card is just turrable(thank you Charles Barkley lol). Unless you have zero blue decks in your metagame I can't see why you'd play this.
Against blue, the plan is to play your other business spells before Devastating Dreams (i.e. discarding only lands or useles stuff like extra Chalices). They can only counter so much, you know (see also Illissius' question).
It's Dreams fodder if you don't have Loam (and yes, you can Dreams even without Loam, especially against aggro: that's why you run all those lands). Get it going along with Loam and it's practically impossible to lose.Quote:
7. Seismic Assault seems eh I guess, how has it been?
Against Threshold, and by extension against decks with the same countermagic suite, no. Their relevant answers are 4 FoW, 4 StP/Demise, and assembling the CounterTop combo; I've got Chalice to disrupt the last two, EE for the last, and my main bombs are Crusher, Loam, Wish, and Dreams, so I've always managed to stick at least one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Against Landstill, I haven't tested enough to say with certainty.