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Yes. You are right. Lynx is a very good choice right now. My only problem is Doran. Doesn't he turn the Lynx into a 1/1?Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Call it a stupid idea, but wouldn't Forbiden Watchtower (1/4 UrzLeg land) be a good choice as well for Doran? I still think Nantuko Monst is better because of the first strike.
But then again, now that I think about it, if we're going to go the Doran strategy, might as well add Yotian Soldier to the deck.
has anyone thought of using thorn of amethyst in the main and removing all the discard spells? Thorn is generally more helpful against combo, and slows down thresh alot as all their cantrips and coutners cost an extra mana. You could then run faceless butcher instead of vindicate. (3/3 + stp seems fine for 2BB) I think thorn main would open the deck up to a more aggro plan than the current 19 creatures. I also like the idea of faceless butcher a LOT more than vindicate, as you're probably playing doran on turn three (or two with birds) so it follows that vindi will probably happen after doran anyhow, and in an aggro deck, I'm fine with paying an extra colorless for a 3/3 body to go with my removal. Just my two cents.
Nope. Never.Quote:
Originally Posted by Media314r8
Play 4 mana for a Pernicious Deed and Vindicate sucks.
Furthermore, Heavy Discard is already great vs Combo.
That's why I don't like the Green built. I do like JanValentine00's black built though I've tweaked it a bit more Control than Aggro :
BGw Doran Control
Mana:24
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamps
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold//Nantuko Monastery//Savannah
4 Lotus Petal
Creatures:14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Doran, The Siege Tower
Spells:22
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
3 Smother
Some choices :
Discard Suite
The main reason to play heavy black. Can rip apart opp's hand or makin him overextend into Deed.
4x Hymns are a staple in black control, as 3-4x Thoughtseize will becam imho. Duress > Therapies 'cause I run few threats and don't have birds/harbringer/0cc critters to sac early.
I know they're not stellar vs Goblins. If your meta if full of angry green gobbos, you should run MD Plagues or StP over Duress though.
Lotus Petal ?
They pump Goyf and smooth the 3color manabase a lot. They also help speeding the deck with Dark Ritual beeing dropped.
Smother over StP ?
I know, Sword to Plowshare is really tempting with the white splash. But sometimes, the life gain isn't worth the RFG effect, and I don't like to rely too much on a splashed colour.
The only reason I would play StP over Smother is "maybe Cephalid Breakfast is well represented" to deal with the Sutured Ghoul problem.
No Sinholes ?
Nope.
- Sometimes LD strategy just fail and doesn't bring you any tempo gain.
- If you're facing a quite shakable manabase, you're already packing Wastelands and Vindicate.
- Daze, Aether Vial, SpellSnare and low manacurve are bad news for sinkhole.
- If you don't put early pressure beside the LD, your opponent is able to recover the land loss.
I'm still testing this built, but it had a good aggro-control and combo matchup. Goblin packing Wastelands and Port is tough cause my manabase isn't that solid but with Shades, I can't afford to play too much non-black producing lands like fetchable basic forests or plains.
And remember : just play one threat at a time.
Hope you will enjoy the build.
Are you sure you don't want Tombstalker over Shade? Same CC, less overall reliance on a colour. Also, this deck looks like something that might just want to play Eternal Witness. Just something to consider. Also, while StP is in a splash-colour, it's still heads and shoulders above all other removal. Cephalid Breakfast and Goblins both still exist, regardless of claims of the contradictory, and Threshold/W occasionally plays Mystic Enforcers, which you preferably would like answers for. Oh, and Smothering manlands is rarely anything more than a hinderance, while StP puts them out of their misery for good. And StP goes better with your curve.
I've played them in Ugb Thresh and Pox for a while. Why did I don't run them them in THIS particular deck ?!? Confidant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
I can't stack my topdeck with cantrips or Sensei's Top so the 7 life//game loss can happen from time to time.
Good points. Still I really have issues with getting G/W mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Some tweaks to the manabase have to be made though, +1 Scrubland -1 Volrath's Stronghold//Nantuko Monastery sounds a quick option.
Forbidden Watchtower is a 1/5 and isn't Legendary. And I recently made a list that ran 4 Watchtowers, it's like you read my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team-Hero
First of all; my first post around here, yay!
Here's a list I've been testing:
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
3 Putrefy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
3 Glittering Wish
4 Thoughtseize
Troll Ascetics: They're slow but they kill. Even Landstill is in trouble if it can't find WoG. And it survives from Deed.
Treefolk Harbingers: I tested them too, way too slow. Goblins aren't played around here so I don't have to worry about Lackey, if I face them, StP and Elders will do the job.
Extirpates: I'm in the meta which contains lots of Control and Combo, this helps a little against them.
Gaddock Teeg: The same as above and they're wishable.
Glittering Wish: Fetches for a solution if there's a problem.
Dark Confidant: Haven't tested them yet, are they really needed?
Sideboard, for now, is under construction. But I've been using atleast:
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Gaddock Teeg
1 Mortify
1 Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Putrefy
1 Spiritmonger
So, do you ppl have any ideas for the SB or the deck itself.
Doran does turn Lynx into a 1/1, but he is a 5/5 for 3. The watch tower is a very bad idea, it comes into play tapped in a 3 color deck. If you want to look at a deck that is built around Doran, look at the Paul Wall aggro deck. Doran, in this deck at least, is just a beater, not a combo piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team-Hero
For all the lists running Deed, what are you trying to do, screw yourself? This is an aggro deck not a control deck. Deed will hurt more than it helps. Running a combo Swords and Vindicate will be all the removal you need, no to mention the discard spells you are useing.
I can only answer from my own experience, but in my list Doran and Goyf are the biggest bashers, they are also easily outnumbered(ETW and so on), but with Deed they are never outgunned. Also the color combination which Doran needs doesn't give a great protection for removals(there are Duress and Seizes, but sometimes they just aren't enough). That's why I haven't trusted my whole list for Doran(nor Goyf).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
Hence, I'm running Ascetics, they don't die on spot removals, Kegs, EE's or Deeds. Having a one beater, which from time to time needs lots of mana(Elders), requires my list to be more controlish than aggro.
This is starting to look more and more like funkbrew... Funkbrew is an aggro-control deck that utilizes pernicious deed and a toolbox strategy with glittering wish, all while beating face with decent sized critters.
Dark confidant is necessary, but troll is not all that strong... in a 3 color deck, you wanna be able to cast anything at any time without fail.
troll is dubble green to cast (green is an off color), and it costs 2 to regen...
you should be running Mire/River Boa (seeing as they have thresh walk) & spectral lynx, which reads protection from Tarmogoyf and Nimble Monggose.
Gaddock Teeg is also amazing, seeing as it shuts off like 14 cards in landstill, all the wincons in combo, and fits snugly into your creature base as a 2 mana 2/2.
You know, there are a ton of ways to build BGW aggro-control, and most of them are pretty good. As a result, though, this thread is kind of all over the place (also a result of the mass mergings that have taken place). We can keep throwing lists at each other, or we can try to analyze card choices in more detail.
There are three general approaches that I can see here.
1) Aggro, with Dark Confidant and Umezawa's Jitte
2) Aggro-board-control, with Pernicious Deed and Glittering Wish
3) Deadguy-style disruption, with Sinkhole and Hymn
Is any of these approaches intrinsically worse than the others? Does one offer better matchups against the current field? It's really easy to make GoodStuff.dec in these colors at the moment, but it might be more effective to try to focus our efforts on one of these subtypes.
Ok... to adress Nydaeli....
1.) the aggressive approach would have been better had goblins stayed ontop, but the fact is that UGR threshis the deck to beat and it would kick the shit out of black based aggro.
2.) Glittering wish and deed are both very strong cards, they make threshold nervous (which is our goal, right?)
3.) Deadguy could be more affective now than it ever was, seeing as everyone is running a tight/light manabase.
That's because black based aggro typically uses mostly creatures that are easy to burn and Threshold's creatures are bigger on a 1-for-1 basis. Doran, Goyf and Mom change that completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
You're comparing apples with oranges.
Wish lets Threshold see the threat coming and Thresh doesn't use enough permanents for Deed to impact it all that much. There's also Stifle.
As for the LD approach, my impression is that the global meta is going towards combo and Threshold. LD won't affect combo. For that matter, neither will the aggro approach though.
My choice is to go aggro to beat anything random and (hopefully) Threshold game 1 and rely on a heavy side to beat combo (Leyline, Chant, Duress and EE ; the latter two being fine against Thresh too).
Deed is deffinatly a threat against Thresh. It easily anwsers all of their creatures, and nukes Counterbalance. Thresh without Counterbalance has no card advantage, and crumples to discard. I personally opt for a heavy control shell through Deed, EE and discard, then finish with 'goyfs, Troll Ascetic and Mystic Enforcer. I could share a list if anyone wants but I'd rather not add clutter if it's unwanted.
On page 3 the Aether Vial topic has been raised and dropped - I believe we should rethink the inclusion of Vial due to numerous positive synergies that haven't been mentioned yet:
Vial actually makes the amount of land hate you included (pun:) viable:
obviously both Vindicate and Sinkhole are only castable at sorcery speed.
This hurts your speed immensly, for mostly it is a question of "Shall I drop another critter to build up pressure or roll with the land destruction tactics?"
Well with Vial online you can do both in one turn during the early game. Plus I have made the experience that with Bob in play, I cannot cast as many cards as I bonus-draw (during the early game and early mid-game) due to the lack of mana availlability, weakening his else broken effect.
Another advantage vial offers is the fact that it actually makes the wasteland plan more efficient, since you don't rely on wasteland's mana production as much - especially in the face of Bob.
And there is more:
Vial obviously works as a mana fixer as well - especially when it comes to doran - thats why I believe Vial may replace BoP in your deck, maybe even as a 4-of: Also, you can cast it off any sort of mana and there is a significantly lower rate of artifact hate than creature hate running around.
What is more Vial gives you the opportunity to lower your land count by maybe 2 which makes up for the lowered frequency of threats by 50%!
Anyway, I don't see a raeson not to give Aether Vial another shot...
I would also suggest including either gerrard's verdict or Jitte MD - the lifeloss through Bob and Thoughseize is, when combined, truely significant.
Keep up the work,
Klaus