You can't play Snuff Out unless you already have a basic Swamp in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Bob
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You can't play Snuff Out unless you already have a basic Swamp in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Bob
Is why I said as long as you don't walk into it....8)
@Konsultant: Ya your deck still doesn't like Mystic Enforcer. Althought the Quagnoth(sp?) that BFS played on me was kinda techy. I'm not sure how you deal with Enforcer other the STP and C/P. As I told you before I think you should look at Deed in the C/p slot.
I think, in an environment where Genesis is a concern, C//P is way better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwagg
I played in a tourney today, I went 5-1 and ended up 5th due to bad opponent score.... Short report:
Round 1 - Some guy playing WW with weird creatures.
1. He opened with Martyr of Sands for 15 life or so. So I thought I was up against old type 2 life. No sweat, I have discard. O-rings and some swords made my life hard though. He managed to beat me down to 3 life when I got control. I Crime / Punishment his dead Pentarch Paladin, set it on white to get rid of his creatures, so he can't abuse jitte, and managed to pummel him down with Doran and Tombstalker.
2. I sided 2 grips. Easy win.
1-0
Round 2 - 42 lands
1. He just beat me down. Mazes made my creatures look bad. Lost.
2. Here I made some errors, after many turns I forgot about The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and had to sac my goyf. Now he could attack me with 2 factories and an treetop village. I sworded the factories, snuffed the treetop. Now I was at 4. He had 2 rings lying there and a taiga.... Had I just let one factory through, I would have been on 6, and could take it out the next turn. This happened after I Extirpated his burning wishes and Loam. So bad I almost kicked myself for that stupidity... When I draw one of my 4 sided CoV, it was to late, I had already extirpated the shit outta him.
1-1
Round 3 - Burn
1. I managed to race him with 2 goyfs.
2. He killed me with PoP for 6.
3. I had 2 nonbasics, one basic land and a fetch. I feth, get an u-sea, look around, see I have already the blue mana I need, and fetch an Swamp instead, I m at 9, play chalice for one (I just drew), he PoP me twice, putting me on 1. He has a card in hand, so I ask if I am dead. He shows me Lava Spike. I say he should just slam the card he would draw in the middle of the table to see if he can win. He draws... and it is... Chain Lightning! If I had taken the U-Sea, I would have lost...
2-1
Round 4 - Dragon Stompy
1. I start with land bird, not knowing what he plays (I could have played Thoughtseize). He groaned and plays Trinisphere. I land, second bop. He can't kill my birds in time. I remember Swording, Snuffing lots of creatures. Crime / Punishment a bit... He got rid of my birds with jitte after a while, but I still won.
2. He starts with 1st turn blood moon. I have 2 windswept heath and a bird in my hand.... Never draw a basic, lost.
3. I don't quite remember, but I won. Grips hurray I think..?
3-1
Round 5 - Dredge
1. I concede on turn 2 when I only have a bird, and half his library is in his grave.
2. Exterpitate and Eternal win me this game.
3. And this one also. He starts with colluseum Careful Study putting troll into grave. I extirpate, see he has no other dredgers in his hand. 2 turns later I witness my Extirpate back, taking his bridges. He plays Breakthrough sometime, gets nothing but one measly imp into his grave. I draw Extirpate. 2 turns later he scoops...
4-1
Round 6 - landstill
1. Very long game, he wins (Humility/recurring EE/Factories)
2. Also long, I win (Tombstalker)
3. I ask him to concede, since I am 4-1 and he is 3-2. With 4 minutes for the last round it would have been a draw anyway. We agree I give him some boosters and he concedes.
5-1
In the end I got 5th and got me 9 boosters to play with. This is the deck I played with. I just replaced one bayou with an overgrown tomb because a friend needed the bayou, never really a problem though. I never faced belcher, so I didn't side the chants.
Side:
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Orim's Chant
3 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void
That's what Extirpate is for.Quote:
I think, in an environment where Genesis is a concern, C//P is way.
Deed is the better call. Crime only hits the casting cost and there are alot time I know Geoff and BFS want to hit multiple casting casts. Example 1-4.
@Akasha
I'm glad to see that the deck is successful outside of Syracuse. The deck is really good and a feel that it is only one or two small tweaks away from being capable of winning any tourney you enter. I do strongly favor my build although I do recognize that the Wish version and Raider Bob's have just as much potential.
Regarding Mystic Enforcer you actually have C+P, STP and EE that can kill it. That puts removal up to 9 spells, it is unfortunatly bigger than anything in Tombstone outside of maybe Goyf and the pro black factor with flying hurts your ability to stop it using your own creatures. I never care to see it but even last week when I was killed by one in top 4 it was the third one he played in a row, my having dealt with the previous 2. Also I looked at nine cards with Brainstorm + Fetching and Harmonize, I just didn't find one of the 8 other removal spells in the deck or an Eternal Witness. Statistically speaking I should have been able to deal with it.
The thing about using EE for anti Bloodmoon effects is that it can stop both Magus and Bloodmoon.
I have thought about running Deed in the deck but I honestly haven't been in need of it yet.
@Akasha
42 Land is a tuff matchup but with Extirpates it is winnable.
Turn 1 Magus of the Moon is just bad fr the deck in almost every situation.
Deed or Crime/Punishment
This is really a close call...
Deed - Pro and Con, It is a board Sweeper usually it removes your board also.
C//P - Pro and Con, It targets a lone casting cost saving your creatures usually. You may need to kill more stuff.
C//P - You can regrow opponents crap always fun.
@Raider Bob: I sided in Chalices and Extirpates. The extirpate on wish and later on loam shoulda won me the game, if I hadn't screwed up. The chalices came to late...
The reason for me to play C/P instead of deed/EE was that It has effect immediately and costs less mana. If it would have been a deed, I could take out more, but it would be a lot slower. Same is for EE. Also it comes a surprise card and is more able to dodge balance. I never regretted that tourney that it wasn't a deed.
Now I can play Doran when I got 3 mana, and next turn C/P for 2, which is the amount for I did most.
Fun thing is, I made the deck the day before the tourney, and I still got far, I love it :) :) :)
EDIT: I forgot to give you credits, konsultant. So props and thanks for the list, though I like witness more then Harmonize :P
EDIT 2: I just saw the deck lists and rankings are online:
http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/siegerdecks.htm
There you can see the 3 top deck lists, you can't see my deck list because I only got 5th :(
C/P is just really good. EE is also great if the mana costs of what your looking to nail are low (you'd have to crack it soon, perhaps), so it's a mild consideration given the circumstances.
I remember somebody commenting on the Survival matchup.
Has anyone figured it out? You can't go aggro because there faster so I guess you go control but it is such a tough matchup even with hate etc.
Any ideas on consistantly beating this deck?
I think Di addressed the issue and Kunsultant last time he played him took the control tact to the matchup and beat him.
The main issue with beating Survival is not to walk in to Magus of the Moon and keep surval off the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalucard
First off I did not beat Di playing Survival I beat two different people playing Survival last week. I'm not saying that my opponents were bad players but Di is by far the most experienced Survival player I know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Bob
With regards to beating Survival, the same game 1 strategy is in place, you hope to be able to force them to discard it if it's in their opening hand and try to play very aggresivly. With the limited enchantment removal in the deck it's really your only strategy for game 1. If they don't have Survival or if you can keep it from them you should pretty much always win. If they get Survival going there is just too much card advantage to fight through. Another thing to consider about this game 1 is that if it's still in the swiss rounds it is very easy to spend 40 minutes to lose game 1, more or less if Survival hits the board and i'm not staring at C+P in hand it's off to the next game.
Now as part of my Survival hate I was running Tormod's Crypt instead of Extirpate as my Graveyard removal last week. I fully understand what Extirpate is capable of doing but I will point out that it is not capable of removing Genisis and Squee at the same time.
My side boarding for Survival went like this
-4 Thoughtsieze
-3 Cabal Therapy
-2 Snuffout
+3 Krosan Grip
+3 Engineered Explosive's
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Eternal Witness
I wasn't certain about taking out 100% of the discard effects but in the couple games I played last week it wasn't really an issue. Grip is huge against the deck, thanks Di. Plus good old Tormod's Crypt won me a game by taking out Genisis and Squee. I understand that your better opponents aren't going to walk into that but Crypt paired with some removal for Survival allows you to blow up Survival and be able to deal with the Witness effects. I was thinking of running a split of 2 Extirpate and 2 Tormod's Crypt in the SB. I had been running 4 Extirpate. Either way i'm still not 100% happy with my SB choice's but the control route does fair considerably better against Survival.
Regarding Magus, it's not really what's going to beat you, Survival of the Fittest is what's going to beat you. You should be aware that the deck probably has it in there so fetching basics when possible is probably a good idea. Gaddock Teag can also be alittle annoying, it shuts off C+P,EE,Harmonize and Snuffout, effectivly only leaving you with STP to get rid of him. Just try to put the basic Plains in play and hold onto an STP and you should be fine in this match.
I had an outstanding day yesterday with Tombstone 12-1 in games.
Round 1 vs Elves
I take an easy win 2-0, my opponent was obviously a new player.
Round 2 vs Red Thresh
I take the 2-0 win, I figured his burn effects would have been more relevent than they turned out to be.
Round 3 vs Tombstone
I take a slightly difficult 2-0 in the mirror, there are numerous whispers among Syracuse player's about building my deck but only one other person is actually running the deck in Syracuse.
Round 4 vs Skie's (with meta game for Tombstone)
This deck give's me my only game loss for the day but I take the 2-1 win for the round. I also saw my first attempt at meta-gaming against Tombstone as my opponent was running Empyrial Plate in his Skies deck to deal with the size of my men.
Top 4 vs Treefolk? (Jim)
Yes my opponent was running treefolk, I don't know if everybody realizes this but they printed some fuckin retarded tree's. I don't know the name of any of them but there was one that made all other tree's indestructable and then some other one that with power and toughness equal to the number of forest's and treefolk, he trampled over my Doran for 6 at one point. Jim you are obviously a candidate for Team Left Field running decks like that. I was able to take the win mostly due to my card drawing capabilities and the excessive removal in Tombstone. I would also like to note that during this match I cast EE with 5 charge counter's on it for the first time ever.
Finals vs Tombstone
This match went the same as it did in the swiss, we trade cards for awhile but I ended out on top.
Overall it was an awesome tournament for Tombstone, I went undefeated for the day and big brian played me in the finals, his only losses for the day were to me.
As a side note I have switched EE into the MD and put Cabal Therapy into the SB.
It was a hell of a night, and a damn good way to relax after work. Thanks, everyone that came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
Geoff, I got a huge kick out of the fact that every time you read one of my cards you laughed and exclaimed "that's just retard." Actually, I think that's pretty much what happened every round. There's a possibility I could have been 4-0 in the swiss, but Mike got crazy lucky with belcher. Oh well, I'll play another week and we'll see if we meet again, but I know there not much I can do to combat your crazy 20+ card advantage or whatever crazy number it is most games.
Tournament sidenote: Trample is a bitch.
Hi! I just tested this deck a bit last night in a little online tournament and after finishing 2-2 after 4 rounds of swiss I have to say that I like the deck but I sometimes find it a little slow against fast decks like Burn (I could win this matchup, but games were all very tight and had to remove my own Goyf more than once to gain life, Price of Progress destroyed me) and fast aggro like Goyf Sligh and Zoo that were present. Even Red Trash won me the last game of three thanks to topdecking burn when I had clear board superiority.
I just wanted a little bit more of removal. Am I piloting this deck wrong, maybe, but I found it to be more slow than it seems. I felt like I should have included more removal, maybe just in the SB, because EE was just slow. If I can get to stay alive until turn 4-5 with enoguh life, my bigger critters and card advantage can dominate the board. I may include some Smother/Vendetta in the SB for such a meta.
I really liked Harmonize, Eternal witness and Doran. Hitting with the bird while Doran blocks is nice.
There are absolutly no burn decks in the Syracuse area. I was considering Heroe's Reunion or Loxodon Hierarch if it ever became an issue, Possibly even the white plainswalker Ajani. This is one of the greatest powers of Tmobstone, the Side Board cards exist to crush any match up you could possibly face and they fit into the deck fairly easily from the SB. The MD should be a fairly good shell for Legacy as a whole but you have numerous meta game options for local meta's in the SB. The last deck with this kind of versatility for answer's was Landstill. Hell you could even run Blue Elemental Blast in the SB if you were running my version with Brainstorm. If price of Progress is very popular you could run Intervention Pact or even Honorable Passage. This is part of the reason that I don't post my list with a SB is that you really need to run a SB for what you expect to face in your area.
Assuming that Thresh is the deck to beat and that it runs Counterbalance, Burn seems like a risky choice to enter a tourney with if you plan on trying to win it.
Well, here counterbalance decks are getting less played in favor of Thrash as we have some kind of fetish of wasteland. I tested and played your Brainstorm version and it seemed pretty powerful, but I just found it very upset to loose to a bunch of five 2/2 in turn four. I really think that a good Legacy deck has to be able to face those random decks you may find in a Legacy event, I mean, random decks do exist, and you'll face some, maybe not in the higher tables, but you have to be able to do something against them.
I may have not played it correctly, whatever, you can't always win, I just was testing the deck. Many of these matchups could have been easily won with a little bit of lifegain, so I'll throw some Hierarchs or maybe Pulse of the Fields in my SB.
This actually sounds a lot like the issues we are/were having. The deck doesn't play itself, it plays out like aggro control so making the right desicions is important. Geoff had gone 2-2 many weeks before he started dominatiing tournaments again piloting this deck. As for the burn matchup Price of Progress is retarded, but walking into a price for 6-12 isn't nessasary. You can run on 3 basics and a bird, the discard and possibly Chalice o f the void can shut the problem down. As for Thresh right now it is a little in Tombstones favor and that is being addressed daily to make the matchup a little better.
I completlly agree that you need to be able to beat random decks, for the most part random decks are the one's tooled to crush tier one decks. The problem lie's in the fact that we only get 15 cards for the SB. You may have noticed my numerous posts regarding my unsatisfactory attitude towards the current SB. The more I play the deck the more i'll be able to make the correct tweaks. Life gain is something I would like to incorparate into the deck, the problem however is that it is only relevent against Burn effects and possibly Tendrils if the effect only increases your life total. To spend critical cards on a match I have yet to face, not to mention that decks like burn can always just win off crazy draws, it hasn't been needed as of yet. I would like to play Ajani but have yet to find the room. To a certain point you do need to assume the meta, the fact is this, in a big event Counterbalance Thresh will be there and in multiple's. Surviving the first few rounds of randoms can be far more difficult than winning the last few of tier one decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
Like I stated before, one of the greatest parts of this deck is that you can tool the SB to include whatever the hell you want. If you expect to see Mountains all day, then fuck it and run BEB and COP Red. Unfortunatly your SB will either give you what you need to own the tourney or if you are unprepared will let you get ass raped. Atleast at this point I don't have the "perfect" SB. The best advice I have is to run Krosan Grip and some kind of graveyard removal. The rest of the SB is fairly open.
As a side note I'm not losing to Threshold in general, actually I have done very well against numerous builds of Thresh, Mystic Enforcer has been my problem. Enforcer and Shackle's are the primary reason I put EE into the MD over Therapy.