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Testing proves that 15 lands is enought for the maindeck and most games, but when you play against decks where you need Seeds of Innocence, for Chalices of things like that, 15 lands is just too low. I'm testing a Forest or two in the sideboard.
I am a Drain player in Vintage, God may kill me if he discovers that I'm running forests in the sideboard... xD
Are you planning on sticking to your normal 75? There just doesn't seem to be too much in the board that I'd want in the main over the 1 or 2 Forests that would be shifting to the board. I guess I could see Naturalize and/or Shusher...I guess:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
[EDIT]
River boa isn't a bad creature at all, but it's not the comon sense. If you fell like playing it, go ahead and give it a try. We usually prefer either running 2 tarmo as backup plan, or not running him at all, and replacing with more 1cc creatures or other pump effects... Not going to say you are wrong on trying river boa, though... We all do it once in a while...Quote:
Originally Posted by swordoffireandice
though if you are looking for evasion, you could use Scryb Sprites, or even Vine Dryad...
[/EDIT]
You may also try to play, hmmm, 14 Forests and +3 Horizon Canopy... Seems fair, opens one slot, brings a "God, pls, get me the card I want" draw engine to the latter game, and yet, plays 17 lands, with 14 (almost the 15 you said) hard lands so that you don't get stifled/wasted/moon'ed to no lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
I used to like running 15 Forest + 3 Wasteland, probably because of the fact that 15 is enough, wasteland may backup if not, and also add some extra business.
I like the idea of 15 lands with one or two boarded for most things, but do you run any copies of VotV? I feel like you really need three lands out to get a good cast of VotV. I guess I'd be curious to see your entire decklist for that matter, if you wouldn't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
I feel like VoV is secondary if you already run 4 Bogle + 4 Silhanas, but some matchups can make use of VoV, so maybe carrying VoV SB together with the 2 forest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Forest
SB: 3 Vines of Vastwood
SB: 3~4 Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 Naturalize -or- Tormods -or- something else
I like the idea of shifting our deck into either more agressive or more comboish with our sideboard cards. When I was playin VoV MD without Krosa, I've used it SB so that if combo was better, I boarded them in, and also, added 2x Bounty of the Hunt... If we side Vines of Vastwood, I think the result would be similar... shall need some test thou...
What is your main deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
For this configuration of side, and the hole Forest @SB plan, it would be this:
Maindeck:
15 Forest
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Seal of Strength
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite //(I actually use Vine Dryad here, but that's me...)
4 Nettle Sentinel //(Or Scrybs)
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Tarmogoyf
Looks interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
4 Slippery Bogel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kird Ape
4 Vishino Slaughtermaster
4 Uktabi Drake
4 Kavu Predator
4 Berserk
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
2 Seal of Strength
4 Taiga
8 Fetch
2 Forest
So I never got feed back on my Red Splash.
Maybe Colossal Might?
Hmmm... no need for colossal might... I'd rather run the 3rd and 4th Seal instead
I'm not sure about Viashino, how is it going for you? And I'd cut Drake for, hmmm, nettle, or scryb, or Nacatl -n- go white too... But anyways, I think 14 lands for a hybrid version will get you into trouble against few matchups that will break you manabase down. AND you are running 12 2cc, +4VoV, which is 2cc for the combo sakes.
Viashino has been pretty good as it has a built in Berserkish effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
Maybe -4 Drake +4 ESG? Although the thing I love about Drake is just being able to win on an empty board. When they tap out for a creature, not expecting anything, and you drop Drake, pump it up, Berserk, and kill them. Those kind of kills usually need 2 Berserks though.
The VoV are just as good as protection spells IMO. Protecting a Viashino from a Path or Swords can be backbreaking.
So far best win was T3 with Viashino.
T1 Seal
T2 Viashino
T3 Might, Vines, Invigorate, break seal, Berserk. 22/22 double strikers with trample are good I hear.
But I have won games where I got a Rancor on Viashino, and then a few pumps killed them, without a Berserk, thanks to DS.
I have won out on turn 2 many times, but that's because I've been playing it for soooo long.
So far, most "¡¡¡WTF!!!" win was:
Turn 1: Forest, Elite
Opp T1: Lackey
Turn 2: Forest, Invigorate, Invigorate, Invigorate, Berserk, Berserk
...
Which turns out to be 56 Damage, even though your opponent will have 29 lives now... xD
I remember to have done this at least three times, with different creatures, the others were with Scryb Sprite vs a 2nd turn Dreadnought and the other was a Jungle Lion which was Bolted as an answer to the first and second Invigorate.
Anyway, with a combination of between 3 invigorate and a berserk or berserk and 2 invigorate is much more common.
I'm not sure if it has been commented yet before but anyone tryed Sylvan Safekeeper here?
The problem is that the stack doesn't interact very nicely with him. Picture this situation: I am trying to combo out a player holding a removal spell like Plow. If I try to pump my guy, they Plow in response and then if I Safekeeper in response to that in order to save them, the shroud will then counter my own spell too. If I use the Safekeeper proactively then I can't cast my pump at all. The only way it works is if they're terrible and try to respond with Plow when you lead with a Safekeeper activation, then you can respond with all of your pump, resolve it, then activate Safekeeper again. I'm not a fan of anything that requires my opponent to misplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
Well, we could do some extensive math over the "2 turn kill" thing, considering 2 open forest and a creature by turn 2, the dmg would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
(this kind of math is pre-required to play berserk stompy, isn't it?)
Creatures with power 1:
2 invigorate + zerk: (1+4+4)*2-6 = 12
2 invigorate + (+3 pump) + zerk: (1+4+4+3)*2-6 = 18
2 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk: (1+4+4+4)*2-6 = 20 -> ok!
1 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk: (1+4+4)*2-3= 15
1 invigorate + 2 zerk: (1+4)*4 -3 = 17
2 invigorate + 2 zerk: (1+4+4)*4 -6 = 30 -> sup?
Creatures with power 2:
2 invigorate + zerk: (2+4+4)*2-6 = 14
2 invigorate + (+3 pump) + zerk = (2+4+4+3)*2-6 = 20 -> ok!
2 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk = (2+4+4+4)*2-6 = 22 -> ok!
1 invigorate + (+4 pump) + zerk: (2+4+4)*2-3= 18
1 invigorate + 2 zerk: (2+4)*4 -3 = 21 -> ok!
2 invigorate + 2 zerk: (2+4+4)*4 -6 = 36 -> gg!
From what we can conclude that power 2 creatures are far faster for the combo, and +4 pumps aren't that different from +3 pumps on this scenario, if you consider death as being "reaching 20": just one case different.
Of course I know it's stupidy calculum if you disconsider game situation, and that bogle or scryb may be better suited than power 2 creatures on many situations, but if you are willing to play a version of the deck that can combo faster, then you should do that kind of math.
Also, you could add Bounty of the Hunt, and see how it gets. BotH is better than invigorate when you berserk only once, since 6 > (8-3). It's one point better. (although none of the situations above needs only 1 point, there's always fetchlands...)
Anyone else already discovered this goodie?
Don't like it much, no...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
River boa is far better, and even thou, noone plays River boa. Simple power 2 for 2cc, that can be sworded to death and make you unhappy isn't the kind of stuff we add to the deck. Besides, for the 2cc role, tarmogoyf is way better, since it holds the game if needed, play the aggro really well with rancor, and when you double him with berserk, you don't even care if the opponent got something to block him.
Now I'm a sad Panda:frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
On a more serious note, why would someone want to play Wasteland in this deck? Manadenial with 3 Wastelands? Doesn't work.
hmmm... I used to, I don't do it anymore... it was a far more aggro-oriented deck, and aggro always make use of wasteland as tempo-advantage: as soon as your lands reaches the count of 3, you burn one of yours and one of them, slowing them down while you can still play. Wasteland is also a solution to problematic game winner lands, like academy ruins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Actually considering, wasteland may also kill a land when the player was relying on his 2 lands to play, and make him sad... It happens, and isn't hard at all.
Wasteland is a great overall card, just don't think it suits the deck... anyway, I always consider wastelands in every single deck I play. Its role is often confused with LD only, but it's far better. It's more of Tempo Advantage for low cc decks.
Here's my take on the boarded Forests plan:
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
2 Briar Shield
15 Forest
SB:
2 Forest
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Reverent Silence
2 Naturalize
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Seeds of Innocence
Basically I'm using one Scryb Ranger main and one boarded to smooth the mana a bit more and own Merfolk. I'd run more, but I don't want to overload the 2cc creature spot. Briar Shield to give the Scryb Sprites, Boggles, and Ledgewalkers a bit more kick. Ditching Vines of the Vastwood, it was never impressive, stressed the mana, and Boggle does the same thing.
...did anyone tested Mindbreak Trap against Combo???
What were the results?
YawG
Nope. But shall work fine, as in every other deck... Just a matter of how much you fear combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
As CHaPuZaS told us, if it's Ad-Nauseam, then you can always try to hit them hard before they cast AN, so that they can't draw manny cards. If it's not, then maybe you can kill then before, or there are other stuff to walk around. What do you fear anyway? Belcher seems as hard as it always were even with mind-fuck trap =P
blue splash?
G/u Serk:
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Unstable Mutation
3 Rancor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
7 Forest
SB:
2 Forest
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Reverent Silence
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Umezawa's Jitte
i gotta say. im a big fan of scryb rangers. i think you'll want more in the board. unstable mutation is badass. especially when you get it on a ledgewalker or something. g2, a singleton jitte seems good. you have guys that are evasive and guys that are untargetable. a combination of such will make jitte pretty powerful. mystical tutor frees up your board a little more. in g2 you can board in mystical tutor too to get berserk more often. i'd love to run it MD but it seems meh. in g2 you can board out maybe 2 Nettle Sentinel for 2 Mystical tutor to improve your chances of berserking for the win.
thoughts?
I fear ANT, and it is highly played at the moment...
YawG
I'm not a huge fan of blue splash, but if you are really going for it, then maybe you should try adding force of will somehow... you already run 4 bogles, you can run mimic, and maybe selkie, and should add brainstorm since it's a house... But it would be slower than what monogreen can be... And the hole idea before was to run those blue/green guys, but staying monogreen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Sure, I think so too. I don't face that many ANT and thus I stick to the plan of trying to deal enough damage to them so that they can't abuse AN. Pure combo that kill by turn 2 are not our best match-ups, and if you fear that you'll face them that much, you should carry mindbreak trap, sure. I don't think there's a better counter against ANT for us to run on SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
You can also try the BotH SB to try to combo faster. If i'm not mistaken, ANT also tries to play an Island in the first turn, so you could use Legate SB too, which is mostly used against control, but could help... And if you are running few lands in the deck (14~15), I'm sure your chances on dealing huge damage by your 2nd turn will be good, and the 3rd turn kill too...
If you do all this combined, your chances shall be at least even, but probably better.
I do perfectly know that even though green should be the main color in a Berserk Stompy deck, every color have a little group of interesting cards worth to add:
Unstable Mutation/Slippery Boggle/Shorecrasher Mimic/Favor of the Overbeing/FoW...
Goblin Guide/Taste for Mayhem/Viashiano Slaughtermaster/Reckless Charge...
Flesh Reaver/Vampire Lacerator/Carnophage...
Jotün Grunt/StP (For Kavu)/Isamaru...
I've tested all of them and the problem when you try to splash a color in a Berserk Stompy is that you fail to mantain the main advantages of the deck: Monocolor strengths/No Non Basic nor Fetches and thus getting the opponent to lose the ability to attack you that way.
The thing is that, thus far, there are not enough reasons/cards to justify including a secondary color.
IMHO, the best non-basic stompy is the Grw one, with Nacatl and Swords backing up the berserk plan... Even with an easily disruptable manabase, the speed this deck offers, and the extra business seems to compensate it... Besides, Threshold itself always played 3c with 18 lands, and yet could handle the screws...Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
Even thou, I stay monogreen because I like to abuse the advantage of staying monocolor.
This is a pretty bad comparison. Threshold has Ponder and Brainstorm, not to mention counters for Moon effects and Stifles for opposing Wastes. If there were any 3color deck to draw a comparison to, it would not be Uxy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
Well... ok... but technically cantrip'ing for lands slows down their moves...Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
And not cantriping to find lands means they die in writhing agony when they can't cast any spells at all. If you want to draw comparisons to Naya Zoo -- that works, but you cannot compare mana bases with a deck that has eight 1cc spells that dig three cards down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
Ok, enough with the comparison then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
This deck is quite expensive for my taste, but i created my own version on MWS just for fun:
Mana engine:
9 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Quirion Ranger
Troops:
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Tukatongue Thallid
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Vine Dryad
4 Vexing Shusher
Pumps:
4 Llanowar Augur
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Berserk
4 Barkshell Blessing
4 Rancor
I don't say that this is tuned and/or optimal version, but let me explain some techs:
1) BotH + Vine Dryad version needs Land Grants. Othervise cards sit in hand heavy.
2) ESG is an autoinclude. This allows rocket starts and it distinguishs true stompy from ordinary green aggro.
3) Thallid is unimpressive 1/1, but it is pre-emptive tech against very popular stuff like EE, Pyroclasm, Lackey, WoG, Perish ... etc, and it buys time vs Tarmogoyf. Rancored Thallid can be also target for Berserk without total card disadvantage.
4) Barkshell Blessing has synergy with Sentinel. I am not an expert at rules, but 2 Sentinels means infinite pump i think, even with summoning sickness. This could allow 2nd turn win without Berserk. It has also synergy with Quirion Ranger.
5) I love Augurs. Pump effect on the foot. However, i see it questionable. The main problem is that during upkeep i don't know what i am going to draw.
6) Scryb Sprites >> Uktabi Drake. Uktabi Drake is terrible, Scryb Sprites is almost autoinclude, because IMO flying is better ability than trollshroud.
7) Yes, Vexing Shusher maindeck. 2/2 is average body for cc2, it is not bad on its own. Blue counter-reactive strategies are very popular everywhere. Chalice at 1 would shut this deck down completely.
No, because you put a copy on the stack and do not actually PLAY the spell again. So there is no infinite pump with the blessing.Quote:
4) Barkshell Blessing has synergy with Sentinel. I am not an expert at rules, but 2 Sentinels means infinite pump i think, even with summoning sickness. This could allow 2nd turn win without Berserk. It has also synergy with Quirion Ranger.
Expensive? Do you think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawberry Dwarf
Maybe you could cut out... uhmmm... berserk?
That's the only expensive card on the entire build, if you are not playing goyf, and switch jungle lion for nettle or elite...
This deck is quite cheap if you consider the competitive decks out there...
You can get good enough results with:
17 Forest
4 Nettle
4 Scryb
4 Bogle
4 Skarrgan
4 Kavu
4 Silhana
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of old Krosa
3 Seal of Strength
That's enough, and only expensive card is berserk.
@XiaN: My bad i didn't look how conspire work. It just means that Barkshell Blessing is sub-optimal. Might of Old Krosa, Seal of Strength or even good old Giant Growth are better here.
@Gui_Brasil: Not only. Berserk is expensive as hell and there is no green replacement for it. But the price is not the main problem. Berserk is hard to purchase. Who owns Berserks, he wouldn't sell it. (The same problem with duals, Workshop, P9, FoW.) I am casual player. I don't need it.
Well, there's always From the Vault: Exiled to help you out... and compared to the amount of duals and other stuff on tier decks, this one has the cost of a casual... You can play a more aggro-ish version of it cutting pumps and berserks for land consistancy and high dmg creatures, it worked fine for me until i got my zerks... It won't be a big fan of zoo, but usually smashes control... although it also demand some goyf...
Berserk is not expensive. The FTV: E ones are $20-22 a pop (ebay'd my set for 86) and everything else in the deck is unplayable commons and uncommons. If you bought literally the entire thing from scratch without scrounging through your own collection and your friends' collections it would cost you like $110 for the whole deck. That's so much less than it would cost to get a playset of Forces, Bayous, or anything else decent that would be required to build any other deck. Other than Elf combo and Affinity, I cannot think of a cheaper legacy deck. The only downside is that there's nothing else in the format to do with the Berserks.
Unless you strictly play budget decks, I don't see how this deck can be more expensive than even most Standard and Extended decks.
-AND- it's like the only on-a-budget deck that actually proven itself in big tourneysQuote:
Originally Posted by Otter
Even Starcity Games has the entire deck for 130 bucks, so picking the deck up from someone without inflated prices on most of their stock is going to be about the predicted price.
I bought 4 Berserks from The Vault.
Now I have for sale 4 Beta NM Berserks !!! I bought them from strikezone a few years ago.
If anyone is interrested, pm me.
ps I live in the Netherlands and my e-bay name is: t4-forever
Gentlemen, we are getting little off-topic, but a deck containing 4 Berserks is not budget, even with other cards totally priceless. And yes, i build decks on budget and i am proud of it.