It's amazing until now there are a few still trolling around with Tarmogoyf. Until you truly understand this format please stop trolling around. Pffft!!!
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It's amazing until now there are a few still trolling around with Tarmogoyf. Until you truly understand this format please stop trolling around. Pffft!!!
Survival was never a problem until the arrival of Vengevine. Besides with enough
preparation I don't think it is that hard to overcome the survival engine.
Survival powers a lot of decks and it is a really fun card. would be sad to see it go if that really happens.
The bandwagon-ing on Vengevine survival is driving me crazy. It is not that strong. End of story. I consider NO-Pro a better combo IMO. Survival was already busted since Iona-Retainers. I am still of the opinion that Iona-retainers is better, MUCH more compact and easy to pull off compared to vengevine combo. Just because it T8ed at a GP and seems like a really fun deck to play, people are packing it in large numbers hence the great results. Venges also come from standard and anyone who has a bant deck in legacy (aggro/countertop) can easily port to survival vengevine by buying 4 survivals. If loyal retainers wasn't such a niche and hard to find (as well as expensive) card, we would see more Iona survival IMO. Give it a few months. I guarantee you the performance of Survival vengevine will die off. Until then, I will play UWBG Jacestill at every large tourney and eat Survival for breakfast.
Is Survival/Vengevine the best deck in Legacy? No
But only because Survival/Vengevine isn't a deck. It's a combo. A Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of a Combo.
Why would I describe it like that? Because while peanut butter and chocolate go great together, they still taste awesome with a whole lot else. Survival can rock out Iona/Retainers and Ooze/Devouerers, while Vengevine makes Rootwalla, Wild Mongrel, and Aquamoeba super playable in the format. And that's the problem with the combo. It's really great together, but seperately, you can still have fun with the ingredients. It's a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.
There's a third card to the combo, however, that people seem to be overlooking: Umezawa's Jitte. This is the card that pulls it all together. Without Survival these decks become glorifed Zoo decks that run sub-standard creatures. Jitte is a powerhouse for their backup plan of straight aggro.
As I said before, Survival/Vengevine isn't a deck, it's a combo. A combo that fits seamlessly into multiple decklists. The truly horrifying thing about Nashville wasn't the number of Survival/Vengevine combos in the top 16, but the variety.
Do me a favor and really look at these deck lists from Nashville's top 16, and imagine what they most closely resemble without Survival/Vengevine-
1st - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35428
2nd - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35427
3rd - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35425
7th - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35423
12th - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35416
1st is GW and looks like a Zoo deck. Just a bunch of beaters and a little removal. 3 pieces of equipment to back up the horde.
2nd is UG, the deck we were lead to believe Survival/Vengevine was supposed to look like. Without the combo it looks like a terrible Bant deck. Once again, 3 pieces of equipment back up the creatures in this one.
3rd at first glance looks identical to 1st, but then you notice that the Fauna Shamans and Iona/Retainer make it more tuned to Combo. Still there is equipment to back up the Zoo horde.
7th Holy Crap! Noone told me Aluren made the top 8! Look at all that disruption and all the mana dudes! Pure combo. Also the only one of these decks without a Jitte.
12th is titled Retainer Survival, just like 3rd, so it must be the same deck, right? WRONG! This thing looks like a frickin' Madness deck, but somehow finds room for the same Retainer combo and a Jitte.
What makes Survival/Vengevine so dangerous and powerful is that it is not a primary combo in and of itsself. It is instead a supplemental combo that fits into a ridiculously wide variety of decks.
Specifically, look at the 7th place deck. It is trying to win with a sick combo off of a cool new card. But what the hell, a couple of Vengevines couldn't hurt. Peanut Butter Cup.
2nd and 7th run counters. 1st 2nd and 3rd run artifact and enchantment hate creatures. 12th ran Wispmare.
7th ran a kill combo. 3rd and 12th ran a lock combo.
Survival/Vengevine is not the best deck in Legacy.
It is the best combo in Legacy.
I agree with the above poster. I don't think we're close to seeing the end of Survival's evolution. Survival is the best combo because it requires virtually one card, while others (Infernal Tutor+LED, Painter+Stone) require two four-ofs to get going. Survival combo needs a four-of and a twenty-of to get going. The downside is that the opponent can put more pressure on Survival resolving and staying in play, but if Survival gets blown up, instead of having the bulk of the deck being random mana accelerants and draw spells, you still have good creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf. That being said, the deck is still not as good as Reanimator/ANT with Mystical, and shouldn't be subject to a banning.
And then Survival plays a Witness to get around the K-Grip. One sb slot to nullify half your hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
Is this the part where we start to throw random cards in theoretical situations?Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
Stifle on witness. Graveyard hate. Counterspell...
That's what I was hinting in my previous post ... one-sided examples don't really work in discussions
I think what he's is saying is that Survival can tutor up answer to nullify your answers to it. Something like CB protecting itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
Needle? Tutor Qasali.
Krosan? Tutor Witness.
...
I think we should give Survival some time. If it warps the metagame too much I think it should get the banhammer.
People should play more, I don't know, Helm of the Void? Maindeck Leylines, tutorable Peedle...
This is true. Well, actually, this is the main reason for a ban, the fact that every deck will run it, or will be stockpiling hate against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I've been developing green Stompy since 2006 and almost never wondered about adding SotF, and now I think it's possible, just because a resolved SofT could win me the game, and yet, basking rootwalla, memnite and vengevine are not bad creatures :P
Teorically, any deck running G can add the combo and wish for an auto-win against some random decks.
Why do people keep posting crap like this? Maindeck leylines? Yea I'll pretend you're joking. It has already been established that there are answers to Survival of the Fittest. We already know that if every deck has peacekeepers then there is a chance to stop the vengevines from attacking or needle stops them from tutoring.... Etc Etc Etc We get itQuote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
This is legacy, every card has answers and I think the Survival deck has answers to the hate also. It has nothing to do with a card combo being broken or not being broken
I can't say I yet agree with 'best' but I appreciate your analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Pun intended?Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
I feel that Survival as a card is very strong right now, but not the best deck in legacy. It lives on the hype of Vengevine, and even though dropping out 3-4 4/3s with Haste is a cool trick, it takes a few turns and a bunch of green mana to get there, and even then, the combo can be hated out (as any other non-degenerate combo) fairly easily. I imagine that with the rise of Vengevine Madness and the return of Ichorid as a DTB, people won't leave home without sufficient grave hate any longer.
Seems decent enough versus Survival decks imo. There are plenty of decks that can beat Survival no problem. Its a decent deck with a lil extra oomph around turn 4/5. That there are several gy-based decks in a top8 of one tournament tells me people didn't run enough graveyard hate that tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
At Eli's last event, I ended up winning the first round because my opponent made a play error (what it was I had no idea; he wound up with a Memnite, Progenitus, and Aquamoeba on the table in a span of two turns, which is kind of hard to argue as making a mistake).Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Yet, I still won. The Madness "outlet" is what makes the deck confusing at times, having to know what tricks to use and when to use them without tripping up and getting the wrong link in your chain of creatures to maximize a Vengevine assault.
How about Leyline of Singularity + Karakas? No Vengevine and Iona to annoy you. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
The combo doesn't roll over and die to GY Hate. The worst you did is make them lose a turn. Guess what you wasted a turn also. They lost 0 cards and alot of mana. you lost 0-little mana depending on what GY hate you used, but you lost a card. You draw 1 card a turn so you still lost a turn, and they still have a reusable demonic tutor in play.
The best answer to it is to win first. The GW is incredibly resistant to hate with main deck tutorable Artifact/enchantment removal and stp. Also some run witness to counteract your enchantment removal. Or they can easily switch to a NO/Pro deck with goyf/KOTR for a back up plan. I would have to say fat green creatures is a pretty good back up plan for a combo deck.
One of the biggest problems with this plan is that most combo decks that win faster are not this resilient to hate. Either they run hate for you or others will do their job with the hate. SOTF is not the fastest deck out there but is hard to answer and is consistent.
Yes, actually, it does. That's kind of what makes something "degenerate" or "broken" in that it makes the combo inherently difficult to stop by how efficient it really is. People willl continue to hate on the deck and it will still continue to put up good numbers not necessarily due to the number of people playing the deck, but the number of skilled pilots playing the deck around hate and playing the deck correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
Tailoring a Survival of the Fittest-based deck requires a great deal of thought. Lists that become more and more dependent on Vengevine as a primary and definitive source of winning games will just subside into mediocrity and people will realize that Survival can, believe it or not, retrieve other creatures in your deck that can do lots of other things (bringing the card almost full-circle). There are a variety of lists playing toolbox options, but I'm seeing (currently anyhow) a major trend in the number of Vengevival decks relying solely on Vengevines to win games. Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla are honestly not going to do it alone.
Also, one more thing to point out (as I've read several people mention this already): Extirpate is not a bad card - especially against a deck like this where Vengevines become critical in winning games faster and faster and eliminating Survival of the Fittest which is in itself a crippling shot in neutering the deck's explosiveness. Extirpate is situational, no one is debating that. But I think its utility is finally catching the eye of people willing to accept its usefulness in today's meta. It is just simply great at what it is supposed to do and that is what any sideboard option should be when considering inclusion.
My testing has shown the same thing. My thought now is that pithing needle might be better than grave hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrFunker
I just want to reiterate what has been said earlier, because some people keep talking about how Survival of the Fittest (the deck) is warping the metagame.
This is patently untrue. The problem is the combo of Survival + Vengevine. Vengevine is the part that is causing problems, because you don't have to actually resolve anything other than Survival for it to be good. Free things have always caused problems in Magic, and Vengevine is just that.
I personally think that the format will evolve to hold Vengevine in check just like it has with Affinity, Counterbalance, Goblins, etc, but if the need should arise to ban something, that something should not be one of the most beloved cards in Magic.
Certainly there is the potential for abuse, but Reanimator is still a deck, and Iona/Retainers is worse than Reanimator, so I wouldn't call it any more abusive than any other combo. Ooze combo is really damn cool, and it wins on the spot, but you have to resolve both Survival and a 2BB creature. Seems pretty fair. Vengevine... you just have to use Survival. Vengevine is clearly the culprit, and if the banhammer comes down, I hope it hits the Angry Ficus instead of Survival, because it would be a shame to knock 10+ completely independent Survival archetypes out of the format just to nail one offending combo.
ya when I play with goblins against it that is what I use. Sometimes with Perish also. BTW I am referencing the GW version. The biggest problem I have with needle is they run 4 main deck removal for it in their creature package. If you lay it out too early they will drop the creature 1st then kill your needle. Im not saying the deck is impossible to beat. I am just wondering if it is even worth trying to hate, or if I should stick to my main deck. Then they will side in grips and witness to combat my hate, while I will have a fully functional main deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
Thank you for the thoughtful post.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
The one major flaw that I see in the call to ban Survival is that it doesn't take into consideration the ability of a complex systems like the Legacy metagame to evolve. Survival is ther most dominant strategy, but it's dominance will actually become it's downfall. For example, decks that can splash black for Extirpate & Perish beat it soundly. BUG Tempo beats it. Storm & Dredge beat it. Merfolk is even a close match.
Think of this metagame:
Survival
Tempo based blue
Black based aggro
Storm combo
Merfolk
So Countertop, Zoo, and Goblins get pushed out initially. They will return when the metagame adjust to a favorable point, but players need to let go of their pet decks for this to happen and that takes much longer in Legacy then other formats.
It's not about finding individual answers or tactics you can add to your existing deck/strategy - it's about changing to a different strategy/deck that beats the survival strategy/deck. Once enough people realize this the dominance will end.
Now if it gets the DCI to un-restrict Mystical tutor that would be something I could get behind.
I just want to throw this out there, with the foreword that I don't really think either card needs banning, but I'm going to say this all the same.
If wizards decides to ban a card, it's going to be Survival of the Fittest. Not because Vengevine is new and gets people to buy packs, and not because Survival was broken before Vengevine came into the picture, but for one major reason:
Survival of the Fittest is a card that has been on their watch list since the inception of the format in 2004 as having potential to be broken, but most importantly, Survival of the Fittest puts design constraints on future sets by preventing them from printing new cool and unique cards like Vengevine due to potential interactions and brokenness in Legacy.
Much the same way I feel that Mystical wasn't banned for being broken now, but because it being gone opens up potential design space in the future for some broken cards that are fine on their own as 4 of's, but would be ridiculous with mystical in the format and essentially an 8 of. Now, that said i hope this doesn't happen as I haven't had too much trouble with the deck in tournament play (albeit LGS with 10 to 20 people, but good caliber players) and don't feel it's that broken. But if the DCI were to feel otherwise, i think they'd follow the above course of action. They'd remove the reusable tutor and unfortunately kill a unique group of tier 2 decks to take out the offending tier 1 deck, and remove the possibility for extremely broken interactions down the line.
I actually think it's a toss-up, Sims. As much as the DCI hates tutors, they also hate free things. Vengevine breaks all kinds of rules by itself, and the only reason it isn't completely dominant in Standard is the abundance of ridiculously fast mana that exists in that format. What good are a few 4/3's when your opponent can hardcast Emrakul that turn?
Unfortunately that check doesn't exist in Legacy, and while Survival has the potential to be broken on its own, it never really made that leap in Legacy for some reason, until Vengevine came along.
I think it's safe to say that Vengevine does not represent a common design, and it will be a long time, if ever, until we see something similar to it, not because Survival of the Fittest makes it broken, but because free things are inherently broken to begin with.
This is why I think the smart move, if any bannings become necessary, is to ban Vengevine.
I lol'd. The same argument can be applied to Dark Ritual and every 3 mana black spell ever to be printed or considered to be printed. The same with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and 2-3 mana artifacts. Storm Combo puts constraints on cheap acceleration that could possibly be printed. High Tide puts constraints on anything that untaps lands cheaply. This argument can be applied to a dozen defining cards of Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
Wizards is lame enough to ban an entire archtype from existence just because of one fad deck though. Vengevine is the problem, but Wizards of course Wizards would never admit it. Nobody mentions how Madness randomly mulls itself to oblivion due to mana issues/lack of gas in openers.
Survival is an easy card to hate people. Run Pithing Needle. Or Pridemage. Or Grip. Or Tormod's Crypt. The deck is too inconsistent to be a long-lasting affair.
Are you saying there are people hardcasting Emrakul on turn (say) 5 in Standard? Maybe I oughta take another look at that format...Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
I can assure anyone calling for the banning of Survival or Vengevine that any deck that leans heavily on the hope of getting a free Vine or 2 in play and winning quickly is fairly fragile in the end. There are uncounterable answers to Vine in the GY available to all colors, many cards that deal with Surivival, and plenty of creature removal, as well as the old standby of counterspell that shit. Not to be a know it all dick or anything, because that's how this might come off and I'm not writing articles trying to talk shit on the whole community and be that guy, but if you are in this thread complaining about Vine or Survival you are thinking like a loser. Think like a winner man. Almost 1/2 the format right now is Merfolk and Vengevine Survival. Take advantage or get left in the dust. I can assure you that there is a list that smokes both those decks, finding and playing that right now would be a pretty good call. The format will adjust, people will find the answers, and most of us (me included) will be sitting home looking at a top 8 in the near future and having one of those, "OMG, it's so simple, why didn't I think of that," Moments like when we saw Saito's list for Merfolk after the GP.
That's how it happens. When things like this come around, everyone jumps on the bandwagon and the format starts to line up. Playing Legacy at a big event is probably 15% luck, 40% skill, and the other 45% is playing a tight decklist that is right for the meta. I'm guessing before the end of the year we will start to see a lot of familiar names in the top 16 playing decks that are not Survival or Merfolk. That's why they are familiar names, because they play tight and are ahead of the curve on what's good for the meta, and that's how you win at MTG. I'd be surprised to see Alix Hatfield for example bring a Survival deck to the next SCG. Of course in the end who knows I could be wrong, but I suspect he brought Survival to the last one knowing it was about to peak out. Now it's the deck with a giant target on it's head. Look at the tournaments after Reanimator peaked and most of the big names in Legacy are not playing it. I'm not talking about several tournaments after it peaked, right after Atlanta many of the top players put their Reanimates back in the binder and never looked back. Even the ones who did relatively well in Atlanta with it knew the deck had topped out.
Anyways, point being Survival is not unbeatable and neither is Vine. People were saying about a month ago that Merfolk was to strong. 11000 cards means an answer to pretty much everything if you can anticipate what's coming around the corner. That's what people should be doing now instead of saying ban this/that. If WoTC jumped on every card the second it made a serious impact on the format the banned list would be 100 cards long.
And has been applied to any of those cards before in the threads calling for their bannings on various sites since Legacy's inception. Mind you, I am not calling for banning. I think the deck is a flavor of the month fad. But having played this format since before it was Legacy and seeing how the DCI has made decisions regarding bannings before... it would not surprise me in the least bit if they decided to Hammer Survival of the Fittest and leave Vengevine. Vengevine, even for being free, rewards you for doin what you are supposed to do and is no where near as good without Survival. Survival is a demonic tutor for creatures every turn, multiple times a turn. From the DCI's perspective, which sounds more degenerate and abusable, especially with wizards pumping out super power creep creaures every set?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Drain
@majikal: You are right, Vengevine doesn't represent a common design. It's similar to the Bloodghast design in that it rewards you for doing something that your deck generally wants to do if your'e paying creatures (multiple creatures in one case, playing lands in another.) And the DCi does really hate undercosted and free effects, but they hate tutors pretty hard as well. If you give the DCI a choice between Vengevine on it's own, or Survival on it's own, vengevine doesn't have the same potential for broken without something like survival around.
As I said before, if you are the DCI or Wizards and you're trying to make a desicion based on now, but also what is possible in the future to preserve balance. Which sounds like the more dangerous card?
I think an underlying theme throughout this entire conversation hinges on the back of simple and applicable side-boarding strategy. Most decks that are predicated largely on abusing the graveyard as a means for victory used to see ravenous amounts of hate in the format right up until the time Reanimator as an oppressive force got neutered. The graveyard has and always will be a means for players to cheat creatures into play quickly and with little to no drawback.
Point is, adjust your side-boards accordingly, make whatever applicable choices to the first sixty cards you need to, and play-test your boarding strategy. If you can't win with the deck your playing - even post-board - then your deck probably isn't good enough to stand the test of strength to begin with. Resting on the hinges of a frail side-board and side-boarding strategy will ultimately cost you matches, no matter how good you think you or your deck is.
Survival variants have existed for a long time in the format and the years preceding it, so it's not like the archetype as a whole has been under the radar since Bill Clinton was president. Just dust off the hate, play a competitive deck, make as few mistakes as possible, plan accordingly with your side-board, and you will do just fine.
THANK YOU, finally someone posted the hard solid facts. Everyone can have their opinion on whether survival is broken or not, but that is their own opinion and does not effect the hard cold stats you just posted of the dominance of survival. People are preparing more for survival but it keeps putting up even better numbers in major tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Do people really prepare for the deck? I mean, do they test against it and adjust their sideboards? And do they stop testing once they found a piece of hate that works quite well or do they try to find something better until they have properly tested like 10-15 different options? I mean seriously, we have almost that many viable pieces of gravehate. I wouldn't be too sure about that. People might've been prepared to play against the engine but didn't bring the appropriate hate for it. On top of that the deck is still quite new and heavily played. I'm sure someone will find a good answer that's not too specific and good in a few other matchups. Personally I'm liking Extirpate 'cause it's good against a lot of decks and I think I'll be trying Hibernation if Extirpate shouldn't be enough. I usually didn't have trouble with Vengevine Survival but I have to admit that my testing is limited and it's not as popular over here in Germany as it is in the states.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team America
One point which hasn't been addressed is the tight time range of those SCG Open events. It takes Legacy veterans a while to coherently scope out strategies and counter-plots, is it realistic to assume that the SCG Open attendees (many of whom are either non-Legacy players or certainly unknown Legacy enthusiasts) are going to be able to do so in a three week span of time? Vengevine is one of the more interesting cards in years because it moves creatures toward the instant-speed than their normal sorcery-speed. What used to require significant set-up and often a dilution of the manabase (mountain + Anger or crappy card like Concordant Crossroads) now occurs naturally...and Legacy in general has NOT yet adapted to that. I am positive that the format can adjust and will adjust. The fact that it has not, however, does not signal the coming apocalypse nor does it justify bannings. In the meantime, if you own Vengevines and Survivals, make hay while the sun shines :cool: Lord knows I have and will continue to do so! This golden window of opportunity will not last, so enjoy it while it is open.
It is very popular here in the states, the last local tournament vengvine survival was the most represented deck. In the tournament I extirpated vengvine and made no play mistake yet the vengvine survival player still won, you gotta play it to see graveyard hate doesn't stop the deck, it just causes it to change plans. Maybe there will be better SB cards found against it, but right now extirpate, leyline, tormod's, relic does not stop it, a smart player will tutor up trygon or some other answer or in response to crypt/relic activation tutor up more rootawalla and trigger vengvine before resolving. ONE card I can think of that may work is yxilid jailer for decks running black and peacekeeper for decks running white because of UG madness's lack of spot removal if it doesn't have an active jitte. But the GW version runs swords so that's a moot point. or against crypt and relic they'll get another rootawalla to resolve to trigger vengevines in response to crypt/relic activation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
Legacy decks do cast Emrakul on turn three, and it is a hurdle. The Wastelands aren't in there for the colorless mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
If people are interested, I could do an article on how to beat the deck in a variety of ways. I'd dip into the theoretical, answering some questions like why merfolk is posting 50% against the deck. I could also cover the practical, going into a slew of lists from my testing gauntlet that put up 50% or better against UG. Hrm, with the controversy about maybe banning survival, it seems like it could be a well timed article.
It was my understanding that since Vengevine triggers on the second creature of the turn, if you remove the vengevines in response to the trigger there's nothing that can be done even if you cast another rootwalla. It will be the 3rd creature and not trigger the vengevine. Or am I looking at this wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team America
yea seriously if your going to comment on whether a card is broken/ban worthy, at least know how the cards works. It triggers one time on the 2nd creature
We are discussing about SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, what does it matter if I get the vengevine trigger wrong or not, it is STILL dominating the meta. What I see from the people who think it's broken is they post hard solid STATS and FACTS, while the ones that don't think it's broken just keep spewing the same "learn to play against it" or "learn to SB correctly". How about you actually contribute to the thread and suggest strategies or SB options we may not know of, because like the SB cards I posted in my other post, they aren't cutting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...nneapolis.html
and quote from the writer:
"Positive matchups against literally every other major archetype over these two events is, simply put, insane. These are the type of numbers that can get a card banned. Now all the deck has to do is win a large event, and it will put a big exclamation point after the target that's already on its back."
And it just won Nashville.
Yes please. It's your deck after all, you monster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
the strange thing is it was all over MTGO for about a month, but it has since died down somewhat. I think we just need some time to adapt to it/make decks that can deal with it. So far from what I can tell storm combo, and Enchantress do well against it. What are some other decks? Maybe white stax, and 43 land.
Survival Vengevine obsoletes every other aggro deck in the format. It's clearly on another level, perhaps not to the extent that Flash dominated the format, but closer than ANT/Reanimator ever were. I expect one of the two cards will get the banhammer very soon.
Thank you LordOfThePit for your thoughtful analysis.