Well with Lodestone Golem I think you need to drop Revoker or Equipment to maintain a decent red card count to support Chrome Mox.
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Well with Lodestone Golem I think you need to drop Revoker or Equipment to maintain a decent red card count to support Chrome Mox.
I'll chime in with a few notes about Lodestone Golem in Stompy decks since I've been playing with him.
Lodestone Golem is still a fundamentally weak card in Legacy (and yes the 3 toughness is a huge factor to its weakness, not just to bolt, but to many creatures out there with 3 power). Once your opponent powers out a creature with 3 power, Lodestone just sits there until you do something about that creature.
Lodestone Golem needs to be played turn 1-2 to have significant impact on games in Legacy. Turn 3 Golem gives you very little value, and turn 4 Golem is terrible (note that by turn 3, your opponents would have played their most important spells, or they would have had creatures with 3 power or greater out).
Lodestone Golem's effect is symmetrical, so it will affect your own deck as well, unless you tweak the list to avoid the drawback to yourself.
Lodestone Golem is never a hard-lock, therefore opponents can get out of his sphere effect pretty easily by simply making a landdrop. To fully utilize Golem and increase his power, you have to pair him up with more sphere effects, or simply with Wastelands. Dragonstompy at this point cannot really support Wastelands, although I feel that the deck could really use some (to maintain the Trinisphere lock instead of letting the lock just sitting there to be removed when opponents hit 3 lands).
In a deck like Dstompy, Golem's full power cannot be abused:
1. It's nice that Dstompy can power out potentially a turn 1-2 Lodestone Golem but Dstompy cannot maintain Golem's sphere lock without Wasteland.
2. Dstompy needs to maintain high red count for chrome mox, which is inherently disynergistic to Golem's sphere effect, i.e. you're still fairly symmetrical under Golem.
i see only one negative on golem. he isn´t red. with him, i have only 20 red cards MD, wich is sometimes problem (due to mox). but it is a minor threat.
Oh please.. Dont tell me that Trinisphere is better than Lodestone Golem because it fits in the deck better.
Trinisphere fucks up laying a chrome mox, it fucks up playing a Revoker when moon gets handled and they tap your city with rishadan port and smash your face with damn vial(happened to me here and then), it fucks up playing jitte+equip on same turn often and it has no other qualities than disable combodecks and having a good first/second turn. Topdecked Trinisphere on turn 5-10.. heck.. even on turn 3 is hella bad. People who want to play Sphere because its an awesome first turn play, have to agree the same on lodestone golem. And for disabling ourself.. who really is scared of that? Just put that sword on him and swing. if our opponent cant handle him he will die anyway. So its not a problem if the dragon is stuck on your hand, he just turns into Plan B. And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.. I agree on your opinion that he is bad as replacement for a red creature in combination with Trinisphere, but noone tried this deck without Spheres yet, which I did.
lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
well...
I played this deck withous Spheres
I played this deck without Hellbent-Critters
I played this deck with Mana-Denial attempts
I played the deck with and without Song & Slogger
Actually I am playing this deck, since it was there, and tested tons of stuff...
...but what do I know?
Btw, Did you know that Jaya can do more than just "blow up U permanents"? Jaya isn't as bad as you make her, the only bad thing about her is the RR in the casting cost, instead of R [she would be much better if she would cost 2R, yes]... and Jaya was just in my deck to test out replacements for sloggers.
And unlike Golem, you can imprint Jaya in a Mox...
this is 3 mana VS 4 mana first turn... oh well...Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
Oversimplification FAIL!Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
...and you don't like Stingscourger in SB because DS isn't a Goblin-deck, right?
You should try Jaya out yourself (or rely on people who did so) if you want to have an accurate ovall-picture. Discussing and oversimplifying things won't bring you anywhere.
And I have a Metalworker as my avatar and I am posting in the Dragonstompy thread, therefore we need to play Metalworker in Dragonstompy!!
Jokes aside, I've posted earlier why Lodestone Golem isn't suited for Dragonstompy:
1) Cannot maintain the small lock
2) 5/3 for 4cmc is not worthwhile in a deck that cannot maintain spherelocks, yet alone having more issues with Chrome Mox and not benefiting asymmetrically from Lodestone Golem (i.e. you have as much artifacts in this deck as non-artifacts, and that 1 mana that you can't pay because of Lodestone Golems WILL affect games)
Co-sign. I never thought Lodestone was any good in DS. It only helps linearize the deck even more and it doesn't address the problems that cause Dragon Stompy to lose in the first place (e.g. opp having board position).Quote:
Jokes aside, I've posted earlier why Lodestone Golem isn't suited for Dragonstompy:
1) Cannot maintain the small lock
2) 5/3 for 4cmc is not worthwhile in a deck that cannot maintain spherelocks, yet alone having more issues with Chrome Mox and not benefiting asymmetrically from Lodestone Golem (i.e. you have as much artifacts in this deck as non-artifacts, and that 1 mana that you can't pay because of Lodestone Golems WILL affect games)
Und Rocky 1-5 waren deine Idee, Neonlicht war deine Idee, Dragon Stompy war deine Idee..Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
You get the point. ;)
Not like I never tried Jaya ffs.. It even failed against painter itself lol!(but maybe its just me playing bad of course)
The only thing i was mentioning is replacing Golem for Trinispheres, and nothing else. That would save us a slot which would go
to waste for a bad creature(like.. Taurean Mauler, Lord of Wayneskull, Jaya Ballard lol!) letting us play 23-24 good critters.
If nobody likes my idea thats fine with me, just mentioned something new.
As for Metalworker & GoboLord:
Do you know any viable deck where Jaya is MDed except painter? Well I dont.
And since DS isnt stax, a softlock of 1-2 turns paired with a 5/3 is fine with me.
So, what I think everybody is trying to say is:
Lodestone Golem
The Juggernaut 2.0. 5 power for 4 mana, and an effect that slightly screws the opponent. What speaks against him is that he has only 3 Toughness [dies from a Bolt], and that the screw-effect also screws ourselves. Also, the +1 mana effect is mostly irrelevant if we control a Trinisphere. Furthermore, you can not imprint him in a Chrome Mox, which is worse than you think. I have even tested him in a Ponza-oriented version with Avalanche Riders, Goblin Ruinblaster and Stone Rain, and even there, I was not convinced by him. A few people play him, but I wouldn't do so.
Hint: From the opening post. There's some good reading there...
These are pretty bad arguments, I see a lot of Ad Hominem here, and don't really see what you are trying to prove.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
If you want to be taken serious, why don't you post your awesome testing results with %s of win instead of attacking people, so that other serious people can replicate it?
@Scatman
Seems like you misunderstood me. Im not the first dude which comes up with the great idea of including Lodestone Golem to the Deck,
cutting Slogger or any other Creature for him. As i mentioned above, all i suggested was replacing 3sphere with golem.
You cant pitch Golem to a mox? Well, you cant pitch Sphere in a mox too. I hope everyone gets me now.
Of course it costs 1 mana more than Sphere.. but man, why do i still run seething song?
@Gui
Im gonna post a tournament report on upcoming wednesday, where i can clearly state the pros and cons in MUs according
to this little change. And its not like i am fronting on people, they just joke about my idea without really getting the point, which
is kinda sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
Well... I'll kinda ignore the fact, that you attacked me here, somehow, but...
Your arguments doesn't make any sense... Mauler / Shatterskull / Jaya are all not optimal, but neither is Lodestome becasue he isn't red...
Your list plays 8 cards with ccc4, 3 with ccc5 and 5 equipments with 18! lands in the main... and you are talking about highering the curve, and making your Dragons and Sloggers cost 5 and 6, this is way worse than Trinisphere making your Moxen cost 3.
Your Jaya-argument is totally nonsense also... It's like saying: " Do you know any viable deck where Lord of Atlantis is maindecked other than Merfolk? Well I don't." What does it say? NOTHING...
Many DS-Players had cut Trinispheres to test it, and anyone who has experience with the deck, will agree with me in the following point:
--->Dragon Stompy is a meta deck... it absolutely NEEDS to be played in the right meta... And everytime you want to remove Trini from the main, it just means that the meta is the wrong decision for DS. Sure Lodestone might help you a bit more than Trini in that meta... but you can't take good results with DS in a meta where Trini would be bad. <---
Please stop being so ignorant and post some constructive stuff here...
First of all, sorry if i offended you in any way, i really didn't mean too.
And thanks for being the first after Forlorn Egoist being constructive on my posts now.
I see your point about being Golem subpar to this deck because he isn't red, like i see your point in Jaya Ballard
being good from time to time(metachoice.. i face more bant/painters than merfolk in my environment).
Its true that DS is a metadeck at all, but assuming that you are taking this deck to a larger tourney, you
want to be an allrounder still(thats my thought at least). I agree on golem being not the perfect creature for this
deck, but I find it more viable than other creatures suggested in this thread.
I disagree on that intense mana curve you are talking about tough. Testing has proven that with this list
i can go 2 ways of winning the game. The first way would be going the golem route, which sets golem T1 or T2(hopefully with chalice1)on the field
and kills the enemy with Equipment if he cant handle him. Now that isnt always the case since he might get forced, sworded or burned.
If he gets handled, i immediately go for hellbent/slogger still trying for beatdown. If that doesnt work i'll probably lose.
The 2nd way would be not having the golem on my opening hand, which makes me go for hellbent asap, with laying golem topdecked later. With this theory i just wanted to discuss about if it is good in modern legacy to play DS like that(with experienced player like you, obviously), or if its not, based on solid arguments. Thats it. :)
well... I cant say it's to intense, because I don't play your list =P
my problem was the thing, that Song & Slogger make the deck inconstant, and sometimes you lose the game, when you topdeck a Slogger and can't maintain Hellbent [that happened to me with 18 Lands, 4 Moxen, 4SSG, and I am sure many others have the same problem.]
The same problem I see with Golems & Sloggers. Golems make topdecked Sloggers even worse. I know that Slogger is good against all Tribal not called Merfolk, and he is a house against many things, but my main objective is to getting that deck constant, because you'll lose many games due to inconstance, and I think Slogger needs to go with that.
I see your point in cutting Trini for Golems, like stated, but I don't hink it will help DS that much =(.
I really LIKE to play 4 Golems in DS, alongside with Trini, Chalice & Revoker, because I really really LIKE Lodestone. But then, we are playing like 20 artifacts. And... thats not good with Chrome Mox, and more problems are incoming =(
Yes, Slogger IS clumsy, i agree on that big time. I wanted to replace him myself and i think Golem makes him even worse, yes.
But what would be an alternative in the list i am playing? Im not going back for Spheres, for that i am sure.
I also think his best argument of seeing play is being a burnstick. It might be good to replace him with Char in a list running Golem,
but i am not sure about the lifeloss. Just oriented this thought on fairy stompy using psionic blast as a direct burn spell.
What do you say about that?
Oh and just an addional thing:
I play 25 red cards main, since i am NOT running Revoker in my Mainboard, leaving me on 17 artifacts, 4 being Mox.
I really dont see any problem here ;)
Seething Song is good with Golem/Equip, so why cut it?
Edit:
Solfatara is 2R and has good synergy with Golem. Not a removal, but an early timewalk, providing us even more mana-advantage.
It might be a bad topdeck, but it easily provides hellbent at least. I think it needs to be tested :)
I don't know... I am often thinking that one big weakness of DS is missing removal...
It's sad, that the best Burnspell for 2R [in the Burncolor] is Char =(
Covetous Dragon is a fine replacement for Slogger. Slogger has no evasion and needs double red to cast. And how good Lodestone Golem is tied to how much equipment you opt to play maindeck. Early Golem + Equipment is a brutal combo that wins many games. Without equipment Golem is sometimes great but not always.
The more low power utility guys DS plays (Revoker, Magus, Simian, Golem) the stronger equipment becomes. And the more equipment the deck plays, the better it can support a playset of Covetous Dragon.
Still legacy doesn't play many creatures with 3 power. Other than Zoo, they all either play 1 or 2 power or 5+ power guys. And not many decks play Lightning Bolt either, just Zoo really.
Also, I was wrong about Seething Song, it's too strong not to play, especially with equipment, the acceleration I am unhappy with is Simian Spirit Guide.
And one last thought I had, what if we go balls to the walls with utility artifact creatures, equipment, chalice, trini etc enough to support replacing Chrome Mox with Mox Opal. We still play Moons, Covetous Dragon and not much other red stuff. Stuff like Metalworker, Monolith, Wurmcoil Engine and that protection from all colors guy could work.
Well, the problem with Mox Opal is, that we lose the 1st turn acceleration as we can't play 2 other Artifacts first Turn. For Mox Diamond we don't play enough lands =(
Also if we play with all the Utility, Covetous, Equipments, Seethings, etc. there is no more room for Gathan & RPD.
I second this motion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Yes, of course we could do that. But why not going for Steel Stompy then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
RPD+Raiders seem alright in our deck, and i wouldn't run more artifact creatures than 8(Golem and Revoker if you wish).
And i believe that Covetous Dragon is an alright beater, but replacement for Arc Slogger? He is no removal and no disruption at all.
I think even Flametongue Kavu MD could be better than him, which i am not fond of either(not killing the */5+ dudes and doesnt have flash).
Btw, i just stumbled across Chariot of the Sun, which could also be tested. Helps Golem/RPD/Gathan fly for the last 5-10 damage.
I'm sure it was tested already by someone, and of course it has problems (as in "not red") but there's no reference for it in this thread, and I think it could be a replacement for Slogger -- Masticore/Razormane Masticore?
The reason I wouldn't run Chariot of the Sun is the same reason I don't like running quipment in Dragon Stompy: it does nothing by itself. Really, Dragon Stompy only likes to play two types of cards, namely mana sources and bombs. It wants to be as explosive as possible and throwing in cards that literally do nothing without a creature in play means you've lowered your threat density and thereby your explosiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
I'm fairly certain that Razormane Masticore was played in older lists, actually. For whatever reason, though, he's gone now. However, you're giving me ideas for a different deck...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Bladed Pinions is just miles better for such a purpose. Even then, it's still pretty bad. The dual-pro Swords are the best non-creature artifact you want in those slots available to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoSha
I agree on Chariot of the sun being just a worse equipment, i skipped that thought after 3 test games.
About Razormane Masticore, i really like this card in Sloggers place as a 3-of, but i am not sure about the rules tbh.
When you have to discard a card at the begin of your drawstep to maintain him, does that trigger before or after you draw the card?
If before, it is way weaker for our deck.
Edit: Nevermind, i misread on that. Yes it is damn weak when we need to keep hellbent before he comes to play.
Would have been too great to be true. =(
Masticore of any stripe doesn't meld well with the Hellbent theme we have. We vomit our hand fairly quickly, often times not having a card to pitch to Masticore. Also, if you have cards to pitch, then RPD and Gathan Raiders are turned off.
Price of Glory for Slogger anyone? =P
Hardcore disruption for almost every deck except ours xD
The problem I often had with Razormane is that albeit it can help to enable Hellbent, but at the same time I often found myself purposefully keeping 1 card in hand just so I use his effect; I was effectively weakening my combat step to remove a threat. Sometimes its only necessary to use the effect once, but I often found myself falling into the trap of constantly wanting to abuse his effect which is detrimental to our 8 Hellbenters. I don't think hes a bad card, I just think that many other players fell into the same problems I did with him.
@ Price of Glory:
O.O.... (purchases playset).
ForlornEgoist
I don't want to sound harsh, but there are some points about the Pric of Glory that make it really unworthy to play:
This card does effectively do the follwing:
Player's can't play spell's during their opponent's turn.
* Price of Glory doesn't help against countermagic (the relevant countermagic doesn't need lands to be tapped)
* it doesn't help against big creatures (aka Goyf, KotR, Tombstalker)
* it effectively restricts removal to be played with instant speed - that's all
* we are ooking for better creatures because we already have very good screw-pieces. And: I don't get how this cardis comparable to Arc Slogger (reminds me of Alice in Wonderland: "How is a Raven like a Writingdesk?")
Therefore I don't think it's a strong choice (unless you are facing Solidarity in high numbers).
Different question:
What do you guys think of Aftershock? As reading through the deckprimer (again) I pondered about a Ponza-oriented version (again). This card just seems to fit in and could also make a good spot in "regular" DS sideboards.
I was just thinking about Price being chalice 5-7. Like you said it only restricts your opponent to not do stuff during your turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Lets say we play the Enchantment on turn 1 if we dont draw chalice but the hand is keepable, and Golem hits the field on Turn2, the enemy has to Sword our Golem for 2 as a sorcery, costing him a whole Turn without playing a threat himself. If he decides to do so, we use the timewalk for other threats going for the hellbent route. If he forces Price right away, he probably cannot force the next moon effect, leaving him screwed. Worst case, we have protection from wicked stuff messing up our more important turns.
Just my few thoughts about it, might be bad in reality of course. And of course its not a replacement for slogger in any way, i would just rather go down in creature count for playing something useful than play clumsy slogger tomorrow, which i dont know how to replace efficiently.
Regarding to Aftershock its a flexible card which can save games for sure.
I was just thinking the same as for Char, the lifeloss could be dangerous in some matchups, but maybe its just my
burn paranoia.
Masticore / Razormane / Molten-Tail -> it's Impossible to keep Hellbent with em, so forget it [also, they are Artifacts, Slogger can be imprinted if not needed] :D [maybe you could play them in non-Hellbent DS-versions xD]
Aftershock... hmmm Odysseus tested it as far as I know, but he haven't posted for a long time here =(
I always wanted to test it, but never did, because I always found cards which seemed to have more testing-potential. Additionally, I am a bit afraid of the 3 damage also, because we already play Tombs, but I need it to test someday =P
I don't think that Price of Glory does anything good, because every argument stated for it in the first turns is also true for Trinisphere
Replacements for Slogger, hmmm try Jaya if you don't care that she doesn't have haste, also there is Shatterskull which is 6/6 [which is enough against Goyf] [but Shatterskull is worse than Kargan IMO], or FTK... or you just could play Revokers main, which is pure awesomeness :D
You are probably right.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
I will tinker with Price later, since i dont want a bad tournament result based on something that SEEMED nice. =D
But compared to Trinisphere it can be imprinted on Chrome Mox and it has not a single drawback for us at all.
About the Slogger Replacement.. I already tried Jaya and failed horrible against Painterdecks and Bant because she doesnt do anything useful until she gets removed. First turn jaya seems ok, but 1RR on turn1 is not so easy to obtain, except you have SS.
Shatterskull seems like.. so damn bad. I dont wanna pay 6 mana over 2 turns just to have a goyf removal at best. He just cant do anything worthy imo. And Flametongue Kavu would be AWESOMEł if he wasn't just a Sorcery Char paired with a bad body.
Dont know about Kargan, but he doesnt seem right in this spot either for me. Needs a big time R invest to do anything.
And i tried Revoker in the main too. I really hate to play him when i am not entirely sure what my opponent is playing. Saving him for later in a hellbent deck also seems meh.
I'll probably go for 3 Mountain Yetis, since everyone in my meta uses that damn KotR. Defender of Chaos also seems nice.
Have you tested the Yeti yet?
...just toyed a bit around with Yeti... not much... can't tell much about him for now... except that he blocks KotRs like a champ =D
Don't forget that Kargan is good under a Moon, and that flying is a huge + in damageracing =)
If you're reluctant to run Aftershock, just think about the opportunity cost of not running a 3-piece removal spell: they keep a Goyf/KotR that can easily kill any of our creatures or swing for at least 5-6, they get to keep a piece of equipment as well as what could be a basic saving them from mana screw via Moon effects. Ultimately, for the ability to nix 3 cards I think 3 life is well worth the investment.
Granted I have enough trouble casting RPD sometimes. --;
ForlornEgoist
RE: Protection from White
Why not run Wildfire Emissary? It can block non-white creatures much better; but not as evasive since it loses Mountainwalk.
Or maybe i'll simply replace my 3 Pyroclasm with 3 Anarchy and give arc slogger a last chance.
I guess I'll decide that tomorrow after watching the meta a little bit. Thanks for the suggestions tough. =)
so... If this card from the spoiled cards is real, what do you guys think?
Piest of Urabrask
Creature - Human Cleric uncommon
When ~ enters the Battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool.
2/1
It's basically a Priest of Gix in red. I think, she deserves testing, if its real. Opinions?
Some new toys, fresh from the mother of all spoilers over at MTGS:
Moltensteel Dragon 4PP
Artifact Creature - Dragon
4/4
(P) can be paid with R or 2 life
Flying
P: Moltensteel Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
Priest of Urabrask 2R
Creature - Human Cleric
2/1
When ~ enters the battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool.
Geosurge RRRR
Sorcery
Add RRRRRRR. Spend this mana only on creature or artifact spells.
Seems to me like a usable beater and a mana launderer would go a long way towards improving the deck's consistency. Not sure the ritual deserves a spot though.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...&d=13031857388
This is so effing amazing.. Its just so freaking good. Its the missing peace for dragon stompy i've been searching.
The Red Priest seems nice too, i would give it a shot. Not sure what too cut tough. Slogger will definitly fall to the awesomeness above.
The dragon seems solid, but hes another artifact creature.. A clear no from my side.