[DTB] Blade Control

That depends on your exact build, but I would start with a card that
a) is not that overwhelming on it's own and
b) does not interact very well with Snapcasater Mage,
and that candidate would be Spellstutter Sprite.

For 1U, you get to counter a spell with 1 or less, and if you have a Mutavault in play, you get to counter a spell that costs 2 for 3 mana. Snapcaster Mage can do the first by flashing back misstep and the second by flashing back Spell Snare, except that it's much more flexible if you don't need a counter (as you will often prefer to flashback a sword).

As far as I know, Spellstutter is only good against Hive Mind (and to some extent in the mirror against Visions), but that deck is not existend anyway. Just play Spell Pierce and/or RedBlast in the side and you should be fine, given that you can now double-cast them. You can then also switch back to the "real" man-land, as Factories are much better in the defense than Mutavault.

I agree 100 percent with you.

However, just to add, you left out a few facts:

1. What if you don't draw stp/spell snare?
2. Spellstutter sprite is a better creature because it flies, making it easier to connect with a sword. A 2/1 is no where as good as a 1/1 flyer.

I won't totally cut sprites for snappy/tiagos (we need a nickname for this guy). I think you can drop sprites to 3 and drop maybe a clique for 2 tiagos (can't get his face out of my head, his face does not jell with all that twilight innistrad crap). Tiagos are good, but should be treated more like an eternal witness rather than a sfm/goyf. You don't want to see too many, but it's nice to see a copy or 2.

The odds of you not drawing a stp, snare, brainstorm or any other cheap instant isn't very likely though. This card does feel like witness though and I wouldn't want them to clog my hand up early so I do agree with you that decks shouldn't run more than 2.

I think it's most important that one does not just go like : "I take my current UW Stoneblade list, add x Tiagos and remove x other cards for him" and expect the deck to work perfectly. Like Patrick Chapin says in his (still premium) article on StarCityGames: The only restriction is that you have to play a lot of cheap spells. So I think to make Tiago work, the current lists need to move a little more towards the cheap instant/sorcery (but mainly instant) card category.
Because I think that Snapcastaer Mage will definitely be the "natural evolution" of Stoneblade lists, and because I further think that Tiago cannot be fully taken advantage of in an UW-only list, I will try my luck with Patriot or EsperBlade.

I can see snapcasters taking the place of visions/standstill as the go-to gas card. I honestly prefer patriot as grim is such a house vs folk, no rug and stoneblade. I'd still just play 2 copies or 3 Max. I will never play snapcaster over the 4th jtms. Jace is just too good, so this limits the number or snapcasters that can be played some what. I think the ideal number of bodies for a stoneblade list is 10-12. I play 3 grims, 3 cliques and 4 sfm in my patriot list. Never have body problems with 10 dudes + batterskull honestly. Adding 2 snappies and upping my body count to 12 would be ideal.

Im planning to play this deck this weekend, but I have a few questions about current lists.

-Red Splash: Is it good to trade better manabase for blasts?
-Crucible: I dont get this card here. Is it that useful? Wasteland lock its nice, but seems clunky.
-Daze? Better than Snare?

This is my current list
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Mental Misstep
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Spell Snare
3 Cunning Wish
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Wrath of God

Hawks and wishes are really slow. I wouldn't play them. If you play wastes, dazes are more effective. If you play sprite/vault without wastes, snare is more effective. In general I prefer daze as it's more flexible vs hivemind, jace, natural order etc. But I'm in red and I play grims md. I have plenty of bodies to carry a sword so I don't need sprites as much. If you are going straight uw, you probably need some sprites in there.

Hey guys,

What do you think about replacing Visions or Standstills with Dark Confidant as the card draw engine like this version of the deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=40722

If I'm not mistaken its player is IsThisACatInAHat in the forum but the discussion about the deck is in UWb Esper Blade topic (white-Team America).

However to me it looks more like UW Blade Control with Bobs as the drawing engine. I used to play Forbidian a lot and using Bob in a blue control list reminds of it. Also the list don't have any discard effects or additional cantrips so I think it would play close to the UW Blade Control rather than Esper Team America.

Opinions?

for my personal taste the mana costs are to high in this deck for Bob. With Jaces, Cliques, Equipments and Forces its pretty risky. Also Bob dies real quick. But is definitely playable nonetheless.

But any opinions on crucible and red anybody? This thread is really quiet.

The rise of GW Maverick decks in my region is causing me a some problems (outnumbering even Merfolk).

In most Matches I am able to stabilize after some time but it seems that they have more threats that they can draw against than we can handle consistently.

Their utility lands like Tower of the Magistrate and Maze of Ith cause a lot of problems for me as well as Thrun or even Mother of Runes.
All of these cards turn the game in their favor quite quickly if not answered immediately where on my side there are not really many cards that I can draw to lock the game in my favor.

Having played a lot against GW Maverick I am feeling the matchup to be in their favor (slightly but still on their side; Personally I am something like 40/60 % against them).

I am already running Wrath of God Pithing Needle and of cause the Path to Exiles in my sideboard. But this doesn't seem enough (or not strong enough).

Does anyone have GW Maverick specific suggestions for Sideboard cards or is it time to adept to my Meta and change the deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

for my personal taste the mana costs are to high in this deck for Bob. With Jaces, Cliques, Equipments and Forces its pretty risky. Also Bob dies real quick. But is definitely playable nonetheless.

But any opinions on crucible and red anybody? This thread is really quiet.

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Well the thing I had in mind is to replace the Cliques in that list with Spell Pierces and thus such a list:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Swords To Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confidant

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

24 Lands

Batterskull can be used to mitigate the lifeloss from Bob if it gets too great, it has good synergy with Jace anyways and a sure way to draw cards "now" as opposed to Standstill or Visions.

I've read in other threads that a good Stoneblade player will often sideout the Stoneforge package if he expects a lot of artifact hate (i.e. Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip)?

I don't see how this is a viable plan though. Without the equipment package, the deck is reduced to a pile of counterspells and removal with Jaces, manlands, and Faeries as win conditions. Is that really a better plan against NO RUG (for instance) than just hoping to stick and protect your Batterskulls?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I've read in other threads that a good Stoneblade player will often sideout the Stoneforge package if he expects a lot of artifact hate (i.e. Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip)?

I don't see how this is a viable plan though. Without the equipment package, the deck is reduced to a pile of counterspells and removal with Jaces, manlands, and Faeries as win conditions. Is that really a better plan against NO RUG (for instance) than just hoping to stick and protect your Batterskulls?

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I think you can't protect Batterskull from Ancient Grudge. You can't seriously double-counter it, and bouncing Batterskull all the time in response will make you so slow, since the Mystic will be killed a lot at that time. You could only try and Clique it away before you play Batterskull. However, they will have a lot of options post board: Red Elemental Blast hurts as a lot, they probably bring their own Jaces, which we have to handle. Of course, they will still be able to combo early, and apart from Force of Will or maybe Wrath of God, we are blank to NO. They even have their own Cliques to play in response to Mystic activision - and here comes a big issue I think: we cannot reliably handle 3 or 4 drops. And now we can't even do anything against a one-and-two drop (Ancient Grudge). Another thing is: I do want a pro Green sword against NO RUG, but I can't really use Body and Mind, because I will probably give them Ancient Grudge in their yard.
So postboard does not look very good if you keep SFM.

What you can do however is transform to a normal full-blown control deck. My plan is realtively easy against NO RUG: Board out Stoneforge+Equipments to blank their Grudges (having them have 2-3 completely dead cards in their deck is very good!). I will also add Elspeth from the side to add some more threat density. If you have Meddling Mages, bring them in. I will also always add 3 Spell Pierces. It handles every important spell: Natural Order, Jace, and even GSZ. I will also bring a couple of RedBlasts for Jace, Clique, Counters and Brainstorm. Last but not least, I will add an emergancy wrath and side out some swords (because they most likely cut on their Goyfs anyway).

Hey guys, I'm new to the internet but but I've been playing Legacy for a while now, heres my current version of a more tempoish UWx Stoneblade list. The only major difference is the inclusion of Stifle which I have found really amazing in this shell. Although it is a poorly positioned card, I feel very happy with it in my 75 ATM. REBs have been sub par in the SB, as has Manriki-Gusari, but they do a job I guess...

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

3 Wrath of God
2 Submerge
2 Path to Exile
1 Batterskull
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Spell Pierce
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast

[EDIT: I've heard some sweet talk about Timely Reinforcements in the SB, Would it be better than Wrath against Zoo [and the typical field in general] or should I just stick with the current package? Anyone with some experience on this matter, chime in, would totes be sick! EDIT 2: Just to clarify, I would only be cutting a single Wrath]

@ Zunam: You could try a black splash. Perish in the sb is pretty good, and it is applicable against a number of other decks too (NO RUG, Zoo, some Rock-ish decks, basically any deck whose plan A is to beat down with green dudes). It dodges Teeg too, which can be quite relevant.
If you splash red, Grim Lavamancer should be good too, since a lot of the creatures in Maverick are small utility dudes.
Engineered Explosives with any splash could also be worth trying out, since Maverick will most assuredly bring in Choke from the sb, and EE can destroy that, while not being a dead draw if they happen to draw nothing but dudes. It is also recurrable with Academy Ruins, if you run that.
In case you don't want to splash, or you just really like off-beat solutions, you could try Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I haven't tried it myself, but it could actually just be the stone cold nuts against them. Shuts off their mana dudes, Pridemage, Mother, Knight (well, kinda. It will still be a huge beater, of course), Scryb Ranger, and Mangara or Scavenging Ooze, if they run those.

@ Oatus: I really love Stifle + Wasteland, but I would personally try it with Daze, once I get around to it. I think something like Ponder might actually be better than Ancestral Vision in such a deck, since otherwise there is a very real chance that the tempo advantage slips away before you get to win off of it. That's just conjecture, though, and likely bad conjecture, if it works for you. How do you use it? Primarily to stifle fetches, or as a tool against Stonforge Mystic, Qasali Pridemage, etc?
Also: Are there no Dredge decks in your meta? Lucky you..

Is there any benefit to running Green? Tarmogofys/KotR for more beats? Something else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RainbowPenguin

@ Oatus: I really love Stifle + Wasteland, but I would personally try it with Daze, once I get around to it. I think something like Ponder might actually be better than Ancestral Vision in such a deck, since otherwise there is a very real chance that the tempo advantage slips away before you get to win off of it. That's just conjecture, though, and likely bad conjecture, if it works for you. How do you use it? Primarily to stifle fetches, or as a tool against Stonforge Mystic, Qasali Pridemage, etc?
Also: Are there no Dredge decks in your meta? Lucky you..

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Re: Dredge

I've been finding that between Mental Misstep and Stifle that Dredge is actually containable, basically if they don't auto DDD then its usually a fairly reasonable match. [EDIT: and once i get a batterskull out I just pay 3 and return it asap to get the bridges]

Re: Daze and Ponder

I was originally running both of these cards (well, preordain instead of ponder) [mini edit: i've been writing a massive response to this part of the question, but at the end of the day... tl;dr...] but I think resolving Jace on turn 4 is way more valuable than the tempo from Daze, and Visions has beed really easy to get off if I even stifle one of their lands.

Re: Stifle

Typically I save it for V Clique trigger and Pridemage activations, but if I know that I'm playing against RUG or Reanimator, I often stifle the lands and timewalk my way to a vision (read: win) [mini edit: decks that run 16-19 lands shouldn't be getting as many wins as they are, they don't deserve it]

Most of the lists here look like they are heavily geared for the control mirror with visions and what not. If you really have trouble against gw maverick, the best solution is a red splash. Grims tend to shut down the whole deck. You stick and protect grim, they lose. Their hate bears, moms and mana dudes are all soft to grim. Check the patriot page for lists.

MM is gone =( this kinda seems bad for stoneblade. what are your thoughts for the future of this archetype now

See you later stoneblade. Hello Counterbalance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow

See you later stoneblade. Hello Counterbalance.

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Blade CounterTop. With Snapcaster Mage.

I really don't get why everyone thinks countertop is good because mental misstep is banned.

Countertop died as a competative archtype way before mental misstep was printed due to an overabundance of vial decks in the format. Guess what decks people will start playing against when there is a no 1v1 answer to lackey/vial on the draw.

I'm not saying stoneforge/countertop is bad. I even like the ideal but countertop was not good against the pre-misstep meta. The printing of batterskull might have changed that ofcourse giving you actual game against vial agro decks but to say that countertop is going to automatically the face of control again seems fallacious.

I'm sure you can still run some number of hard + conditional counters in the 4 freed up slots and have this deck keep on trucking with only a slight drop in power level.
Misstep was good but not the only reason this deck won.
Stoneforge/stable manabase/absurd equipment/excellent permission all still exists.

W/E my two cents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wirrsturm

I really don't get why everyone thinks countertop is good because mental misstep is banned.

Countertop died as a competative archtype way before mental misstep was printed due to an overabundance of vial decks in the format. Guess what decks people will start playing against when there is a no 1v1 answer to lackey/vial on the draw.

I'm not saying stoneforge/countertop is bad. I even like the ideal but countertop was not good against the pre-misstep meta. The printing of batterskull might have changed that ofcourse giving you actual game against vial agro decks but to say that countertop is going to automatically the face of control again seems fallacious.

I'm sure you can still run some number of hard + conditional counters in the 4 freed up slots and have this deck keep on trucking with only a slight drop in power level.
Misstep was good but not the only reason this deck won.
Stoneforge/stable manabase/absurd equipment/excellent permission all still exists.

W/E my two cents

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Batterskull will help fix CTs issue with vial decks. I'll get a list ready in the morning.

Snapcaster Mage seems a lot worse without Mental Misstep. I think Countertop-Thopters is the way to go, with SFM being able to fetch Sword of the Meek. What do you think?

here is my new shell that I played to first place at another 50+ man tournament (we have them about once a month around here) that I have updated for the bannings (I'll miss you Mental Misstep) and playtested extensively for the past couple of hours against various archetypes. It's looking promising so far.
Changes from previous list:
Main:
-1 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Ancestral Visions
-1 Mutavault
+2 Thopter Foundry
+1 Sword of the Meek
Side:
-1 Sword of War and Peace
+1 Crucible of Worlds

Post-Banning Changes:
Main:
-4 Mental Misstep (*sniffle*)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Daze
Side:
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Misdirection

Maindeck:
Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spellstutter Sprite

Countermagic:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God

Arifacts and Equipment:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds


Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Plains


Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Misdirection
1 Crucible of Worlds

Not really sure still where the cuts would be for Snapcaster Mage, but I do know that this deck REALLY wants him. I know that cutting Spellstuter Sprite is NOT correct as that 1/1 flyer/conditional counterspell is a fantastic in this deck.

No, I'm still not playing Vendilion Clique and no i don't have a good reason for it other that i don't own the card and am not a fan of playing it in general anyways. Yes, I know how good it is.

The addition of a secondary win-con in the Thopter/Sword combo seriously helps out against Game One scenarios against decks like G/x Maverick, helps to race Progenitus from NO RUG, and also gives us a quicker kill option against Dredge for Game One when we don't have our hate. I am tempted to shave somewhere in order to add a 3rd Thopter Foundry.

Lets get the ball rolling shall we? I predict that Storm decks are going to make a reappearance. Goblins also will be coming back. We need something that can fight both. I got a shell here for a BladeTop deck:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This is just a shell to get it going. We could do a few things with this deck like splash red for:


Grim Lavamancer
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast


Also, what sort of sideboard should we have now?

I think that we have to prepare for a resurgence of Vial decks. In that case, Grim lavamancer is probably the best card to splash for. If combo gets obnoxious, obviously Countertop would be the best bet. Also, we have Snapcaster Mage as a new toy to play with. I'll test this list to start:

4 SFM
3 Clique
3 Grim
2 Snappy

1 Batterskull
1 SOFF

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Jace TMS
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 STP
2 Bolt

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volc
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Karakas

I think Countertop is already very mana intensive, pairing it with SFM does not seem like the best Idea. Tarmo/Snapcaster probably suits the Countertop package best IMO. Time will tell I guess.

It might be too mana intensive, but on the other hand, I think the two plans could complement each other very well. Against Vial decks, where Counterbalance doesn't really do much, you have Batterskull, and against combo decks, where Stoneforge into Batterskull is kinda slow, you can just concentrate on setting up the CounterTop lock, after which it doesn't really matter that much if you kill is two turns slower than the alternative.

I like the interaction between snapcaster mage and enlightened tutor... And a lot of other sweet synergies like autoprotection from spell snare when you draw snapcaster with top. a chumper+1/2 sword to plowshares makes it easier to protect jace. A decent respons to standstill... the list goes on. Here's my old list with some stoneforge/snapcasters.

CREATURES (8)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Counterbalance
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Moat
SORCERIES (2)
2 Ponder
INSTANTS (16)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (11)
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Batterskull
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
LANDS (22)
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Plains
6 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
SIDEBOARD
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sundial of the Infinite
3 Path to Exile
1 Serenity
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist

And an easy switch from UW-blade. -4 misstep +4 tops -3 thopter/1 sfm or 4 spellstutters +4 counterbalance. Im very tempted to splash a color since the manabase really can't afford lands that doesn't produce U (for UU turn 2). I.e wasteland/mishra's factory/mutavault

CREATURES (7)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
INSTANTS (14)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
PLANESWALKERS (4)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (7)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (24)
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
3 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RainbowPenguin

It might be too mana intensive, but on the other hand, I think the two plans could complement each other very well. Against Vial decks, where Counterbalance doesn't really do much, you have Batterskull, and against combo decks, where Stoneforge into Batterskull is kinda slow, you can just concentrate on setting up the CounterTop lock, after which it doesn't really matter that much if you kill is two turns slower than the alternative.

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- Basically this. If one plan gets invalidated, the other is there to back it up. Stoneforge takes care of the vial decks while CounterTop takes care of the combo decks. Red could be splashed to help futher fight goblins and merfolk ala Grim Lavamancer. Splashing red also gives us ways to fight other blue decks. I think it's the best shot Blade Control and CounterTop have at becoming a tier 1 deck.

As an example of a RUW BladeTop deck:


2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt


- I know the lack of MMS is a bit discouraging but we shouldn't give up on the SFM -> BS plan just yet.

@ DragonFireheart: I like the idea of that list. I'm not sure that you want two Batterskulls, since it will be harder to protect Mystic without MM. I'm not sure what I would want instead, perhaps 1 Batterskull, 1 Sword of the Meek (in addition to 2-3 Thopter Foundry). But perhaps that is a different deck entirely.
I am not sold on two Counterspell main, what with Lavamancer, Mystic and Top costing mana to run, and tapping out for those plus Jace. 4 Counterbalance and 4 Jace also seems kinda heavy. I think the deck could use a sweeper of some kind, even with the Lavamancers.
With modifications:

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Engineered Explosives/Firespout +2
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
0 Counterspell -2
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare +1
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance -1
1 Batterskull -1
1 Sword of the Meek +1
2 Thopter Foundry +2
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -2

I really wanted one more Lavamancer and one more Foundry, but I can't decide on any more cuts.

The Sideboard would include the fourth Counterbalance, as well as the third and maybe fourth Jace.

Jace, CounterTop and Stoneforge Mystic are all cards that are relatively poor if you are behind, but that gain value the longer the game goes on. How best to provide the necessary breathing room is the tough question, imo. I vote for more sweepers.

I already had decided EE seemed to be a must due to vial. No sense letting them have that jump. On top of that, Belcher got a boost from not having Misstep and I wanted a defense vs that crap. I always hated how that deck could dump a ton of gobbos on you so quick. EE fixes a lot of the problems that Misstep took care of. It's about the best replacement I knew of.

People will be slow to change from No Rug and such also. Lavamancers seem really, really good all of a sudden since some old pet decks will be back just due to people thinking they are viable again even if they aren't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahcmai

People will be slow to change from No Rug and such also. Lavamancers seem really, really good all of a sudden since some old pet decks will be back just due to people thinking they are viable again even if they aren't.

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I also think Lavamang will be really good especially if goblins and merfolk get played heavily again. I have started to draw up plans to incorporate a heavier red splash in this deck for them.

@RainbowPenguin: I think running Firespout in this deck is a bad idea. It kills our grims and it kills our SFM. It's good in Supreme blue because Tarmogoyf could live through it and Clique could fly over the flames (since you could simply not use green mana).

@dahcmai: I've always hated Engineered Explosives. It seems very slow: 1 mana to drop it and another 2 to use it. EE also screws with our curve a little bit for using CB Finally, we can risk killing our own Grims if we are running them. It's for those reasons that I don't like . I think it's worth testing out Repeal as it has other uses and arguably gives us more tempo. I also think focusing on killing the green/blue men rather than stopping their vials is the best route for fighting them. Running grims and maybe even running Lightning Bolt for extra removal and reach are the best ways to go about fighting vial aggro decks.

Land 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Creatures 11
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique

Other Spells 25
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard 15
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives

That's the thing about Snapcaster: there isn't really room for him and Clique.

Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage: which is better and why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Threats 12
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts 3
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Other Spells 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

Lands 23
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard 15
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Academy Ruins
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Spell Pierce

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No offense, but I don’t think this list can make it in the new environment. Without Mental Misstep, we all have to be ready to beat decks that are a lot faster. Reanimator already is a deck to beat (granted, they loose MM too), and I expect Storm combo and High Tide to make a comeback. Apart from Forces and maybe the Spell Snares, there is nothing to stop them. Ancestral Visions will be way too slow, and neither Jace nor SFM have a big impact here. Dredge will also be pretty hard to beat.

On the other hand, we have to be able to deal with Aether Vial aggro decks. Wraths may be good here, but again, probably a tad slow. Goblins will be refilling their hand too quickly with Ringleader and Matron. SFM into Batterskull is still a good answer to have against aggro, and it will help tremendously against e.g. Merfolk.

Further, the deck does not seem to be tuned to abuse Snapcaster Mage. Right now, I only see Brainstorm, Swords and Spell Snare as viable flashback targets, so the 4-off seems wrong to me. Granted, Surgical Extraction is very good with Snapcaster Mage. The Mage was a ton better with Mental Misstep, since you could cast it on turn 2 and have a flashback target, but I think it can still be very good now, if you build your deck around it with enough dedicated targets.

A card that I have been finding myself siding in almost every matchup (even before the banning) was Spell Pierce. I obviously wanted it against combo, I wanted it in the Mirror against Jace and for the counter-war in general, I wanted in against NO Rug and I even wanted it against Zoo to handle GSZ and the burn spells they fire at me. Spell Pierce will be pretty good in the upcoming meta I guess, and it also goes very well with Snapcaster Mage. It also handles Aether Vial, at least on the play (or if it does not happen to come down turn 1).

The second card I’ve been looking at was Stifle. Stifle will resolve a lot more now without Mental Misstep running around everywhere. I don’t think of it as a “Stifle-Wasteland-Daze” tempo Stifle, but more like a “Control the important triggers” Stifle, in the way of “Nice Squire!”, “No you don’t draw 7 with that Jin”, “2 Tendrils loss of life only” and so on.
Still, there is always the opportunity to Stifle an opposing Wasteland or Fetchland if he happens to me mana-screwed anyway, but I don’t think of it as a primary goal. I believe Stifle should be good against Goblins too, as their creatures don’t do much without the “comes into play” trigger. If we can shut down the important abilities, we should be able to ignore Aether Vial to some extend and focus on our game plan without being overrun. And again, snapping back Stifle looks strong in theory.

Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TkDodo

Thoughts?

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A shameless post to encourage people to visit my new thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22210-Deck-CounterBlade&p=589359#post589359

Why is there a lot of talk about Counterbalance after the MM banning? I don't see making it the cut. Which decks is it really good against at the moment.
Yes, it's good against combo but the rest of the decks are running wide-spread mana-curves and utilize things like GSZ which work wonders against Counterbalance.
Additionally there are also things like Vial and Stoneforge Mystic that help playing around Counterbalace if not countered.

I just don't see it being good enough anymore.