I don't think there has been a 4th show and tell mained for awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by civet five
Printable View
I don't think there has been a 4th show and tell mained for awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by civet five
I've concluded that TheBoozeCube has been trolling this deck for months now. He posts no results, has a Borat Avatar, and insists on the Mono-Green version being superior despite all logic and results to the contrary. See the Development thread for pages and pages of his attention seeking.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
In my opinion the only time you would run Tabernacle on the main would be if your meta has copious amounts of Dredge, Affinity, and Storm combo. A 4th Show & Tell is for if there are gads of RUG, with minimal Omnishow. These two metas can overlap, but I find it unlikely, since Rug beats two of the prior three.Quote:
Originally Posted by civet five
I've had a friend try and talk me out of building this deck * down 1 candelabra*. He would say this as he's playing Spiral Tide :p
This deck is a blast and the interactions with itself is pretty nuts.
Hello,
I've been following this thread and the developmental thread for quite some time and finally decided to sleeve it up and bring it to a local 19 player Legacy event last weekend. I have always liked mana ramp decks (I loved Tooth and Nail when it was legal in Standard) and this deck seemed the closest I could get to a controlling deck that builds mana to hardcast a bomb. I was skeptical of the deck's susceptibility to Wasteland before the event, but afterward I was very reassured with a heavy density of Pithing Needles and smart Crop Rotation play. I went 4-1 in Swiss, beating Elves, Lands, RUG and Goblins and losing to Burn, then losing to Aggro Loam in the top 8. I was running Rock Lee's SCG Providence list, but with a basic Forest in place of the Karakas, and the Karakas and a fourth Pithing Needle in the board in place of the Vensers (because I hadn't received them in the mail yet).
The deck was a blast to play though, and I feel there is a lot of room for improvement in my play. There is so much decision making throughout the game; the deck reminds me a bit of Lands with its expansive decision tree, steady land dropping and necessity of playing tightly. Unlike Lands, it has clear win conditions that are attainable fairly quickly, which I think makes this deck better. Thank you Rock Lee and other developers!
I had a couple of questions:
1. How important is having the ability to take infinite turns (either with two Emrakuls or a Karakas to replay Emrakul)? I ask because each game where I was able to hardcast my single Emrakul, I was able to have the game wrapped up anyways the following turn. Since I was paranoid of Wasteland, I really wanted a basic Forest in the maindeck, and Karakas seemed inferior to Bojuka Bog and Glacial Chasm and was put to the side. After making this change, I see that the most recent lists have both a Karakas and Forest, removing a fourth Tropical Island. Do you have any color issues removing one of your U/G sources? I have agonized over the correct land setup and how necessary it is to loop Emrakuls.
2. Has anyone had success running Drop of Honey? I see it in several listed sideboards, but little discussion of results with it. It seems like a good tempo advantage post-board that could force opponents into making poor decisions, if Repeals and Elephant Grass aren't already enough for aggro.
3. Would running a fourth Pithing Needle in the board be worth it? Every matchup where I was sitting opposite Wastelands I was very happy to see a Needle in my opening hand, as it is the most direct, proactive answer to halting Legacy's most prevalent land destruction card. Even when drawing multiples, there can be different cards to name to buy time. I noticed that older lists used to run four Needles in the 75, so the idea doesn't seem too foreign.
I'm looking forward to playing this build again!
It is not necessary, but Karakas opens up several lines of play, such as safely show & tell'ing Eldrazi's, specifically emrakul against karakas-running decks. My major use of Karakas is abusing the bejesus out of Ulamog in obscure, but frequently present late game losing situations. This happens at least two times per major event I go to. Lastly, your only removal is shut down by Gaddock Teeg, so having a maindeck answer is paramount in important. Lots of outlier reasons justify the infinite turns bonus in my mind. I have sofar found zero color issues. You will see that the most recent list runs 4 trops, 3 misties. Always testing, as everyone should be. Also Karakas gives you serious game against Reanimator and Omnishow, who have to go for the combo instead of eldrazis.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
Drop of Honey is good if your meta is saturated with large monsterous creatures such as MUD, Aggro Loam or Sea Stompy. Unfortunately all these decks run Chalice @ 1, making Drop of Honey a bit of a tragic card in itself. I have tested it, and have a teammate who prefers to run it, but I often find it insufficient of an answer. Beast Within often is better.Quote:
2. Has anyone had success running Drop of Honey? I see it in several listed sideboards, but little discussion of results with it. It seems like a good tempo advantage post-board that could force opponents into making poor decisions, if Repeals and Elephant Grass aren't already enough for aggro.
I generally play extremely brazenly against wasteland-oriented decks. I frequently side OUT my pithing needles against these decks. If you are in a heavy-wasteland meta, then run surgical extractions instead. They are good against many combo decks and change the Reanimator matchup from favorable to laughable. My logic, is people hurt their mana advancement by keeping wasteland heavy hands, and side in artifact removal anyhow. That being said, decks with Knight or Vial I keep needle in, but rarely name wasteland.Quote:
3. Would running a fourth Pithing Needle in the board be worth it? Every matchup where I was sitting opposite Wastelands I was very happy to see a Needle in my opening hand, as it is the most direct, proactive answer to halting Legacy's most prevalent land destruction card. Even when drawing multiples, there can be different cards to name to buy time. I noticed that older lists used to run four Needles in the 75, so the idea doesn't seem too foreign.
Hi guys, a while since I posted here.
Went 4-1 at our local shop with ~25 players winning grindstone-combo, junk, maverick and nic-fit. The lost game went to ANT. I have the list in the primer but missed out on 1 flusterstorm and 2 chalice from board. Need these to beat storm. Might be better to just go mindbreak trap over chalice though, as having that on top with STD feels warm and fuzzy
Next weekend nationals with ~100 players. Went 5-2 last year with monogreen, lets hope this version can get me to top 8
While mindbreak is good against ant, not so hot against TES. As a TES player, I'd rather see someone playing mindbreak over chalice. Chalice stops my chants * which would stop your mindbreak traps*, chalice also stops my rituals, discard spells, ponders, brainstorms and my probes. basically stops the same thing in ANT outside of chants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
So why not run something that shuts down almost half the deck?
Double post. delete plox.
Because Chalice is a turn 2 drop, at earliest (unless you drop it on 0, which may be the best bet for this deck).
Turbo Eldrazi runs 21 1-cc cards and does not run Sol-lands. Decks where Chalice shines run few-to-no 1-drops and run 8 Sol-lands. This enables turn 1 Chalice @ 1.
Additionally, I can't cast Chalice on turn 2 and keep mana up for Flusterstorm.
Mindbreak Trap is also better against Belcher (most of their stuff is 2-cc). MBT is arguably better against High Tide because it recycles off of Time Spiral. MBT also has a surprise factor- unlike Chalice, opponent's can't see it sitting on the board. You can also float MBT with SDT (gets around discard, but not chant). It wouldn't surprise me if most TES decks removed chants vs. Eldrazi. I think that would be the first thing to go.
Dropping for 0 would be good. Locking mox, LED and petal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I do agree that trap is better against belcher and time spiral. As for the TES matchup, it'd be iffy. If the standard list was still running the 7 chants like they use to, I'd easily cut a few for other stuff, but now they're running about 3-4 main. Depends on how greedy the TES player wants to play he could side out all, or keep a few. Granted, TES chants, you play crop and get glacial in response. This forces them to go EtW which Turbo Eldrazi should win.
We should get insight from Cook and Rock. I'll try to talk to Cook about how he'd sideboard and report back. I'm sure Rock will post about the matchup soon.
I played this deck locally at a semi-major event with 70~ players. I went with a list identical to the one in the primer except with a different SB:
4 x Flusterstorm
3 x Mindbreak Trap
2 x Elephant Grass
2 x Venser Shaper Savant
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 x Chalice of the Void
My buddies and I decided on the 3 x Chalice of the Void instead of 2 x Beast Within and 1 x Spellskite because we expected a lot of Storm Combo in our meta.
Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.
Here's a short recap of my matchups that day. I don't have notes on any of my matches so, this will be short and taken from memory:
Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0
Game 1 I was able to power out Ulamog pretty early, but by then the opponent played a Sigarda, Host of Herons. I answered by playing Emrakul, but I was at a semi-dangerous life level at that point (since he had Sigarda and Thrun in play on his side), so i decided to keep both boys on the defense. He responded by sacrificing an Academy Rector to fetch Faith's Fetters on Emrakul, which gave Sigarda free reign to attack. i was able to stall for time by dropping Glimmerposts, until I found Karakas to bounce Emrakul, and play him again for infinite turns.
Game 2 My opponent sided in some Helm of Obediences hoping to flip an eldrazi. He also played Humility in the hopes it would stop the boys from wreaking havoc. Fortunately, the trigger on the eldrazi is on cast, not an EtB effect (we had to confirm with the judge), so a hard-casted Kozilek enabled me to draw into Ulamog, and destroy the pesky enchantment. A last-ditch effort moat tried to stop the damage, but I had Karakas available to bounce Ulamog and play him for the win
Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1
Game 1 I had the sheer unluck of not drawing any Cloudposts. All my fetch spells were countered, and JTMS' ultimate finished me off.
Game 2 and 3 went smoothly, with me able to power out the boys even through counterspells and Vendillion Cliques.
Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0
Game 1 I cast Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog just when he had a ton of cards in the GY and no threats on board. It was over soon after as he could not recover.
Game 2 I rode on the back of Elephant Grass and got 2 Expedition Maps in play ready to fetch the Bog and Vesuva if needed. My opponent scooped when I cracked one of them end of his turn for a Bog.
Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2
Game 1 went without a hitch for the opponent.
Game 2 was the same, as I kept a hand with no answers in the hopes that Brainstorm and SDT will provide them. They didn't.
Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0
Game 1 A hard-casted Emrakul weakened my opponent's board, but he had enough resources left-over and played a Liliana of the Veil next turn, and used her -2 ability to force me to sac Emrakul. Phyrexian Revoker on my SDT forced me to top-deck for answers. I eventually drew into Emrakul again and sealed the deal.
Game 2 I was able to Show and Tell Ulamog into play turn 3. My opponent had no outs and scooped.
Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1
Game 1 My opponent had a very strong board and applied a ton of pressure before I could stall with a Glacial Chasm. I struggled to ramp up, but with no Cloudposts going my way, I couldn't get enough mana to cast the All is Dust in my hand, and he finished me off with Lightning Bolts when I could no longer pay for Chasm during my upkeep.
Game 2 I was able to prevent my opponent from applying pressure, but at the same time he was disrupting me. 2 Primeval Titans came down on my side, and went on the assault for the kill. Unfortunately, time was called during this round, so we were unable to play the 3rd game and were forced to draw the round.
Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0
Game 1 I resolved a Show and Tell for Primeval Titan. He scooped once he realized what the deck was up to as he had no removal in his hand.
Game 2 We went back and forth for a while, and a resolved Candelabra powered out Primeval Titan, which, again, he had no answer for. He scooped soon afterward.
Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2
Game 1 He had a terrible hand, and I was able to play Emrakul off a Primeval Titan.
Game 2 He killed me on turn 2 on the back of a Silence. I only had 1 counter in hand, so I couldn't stop it.
Game 3 Is a long game, basically with me able to answer his first attempt. I had a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 0, but I could not ramp up and made a crucial error of not casting Mindbreak Trap on his Ad Nauseam, which is the last card in his hand, thinking I would be fine. Hull breach on Chalice-1 allowed him to play Silence next turn and combo me out.
I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!
I'm looking forward to what you discover from Cook. I imagine if he knew we were running FStorm and MBT, he would leave his Chants and Discard in. However, if he was unfamiliar with the list, Chants would could out (maybe coming back in for g3).Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Glacial allows them to Tendrils (it would actually push them away from the EtW plan). Glacial Chasm prevents damage; Tendrils of Agony is loss of life.
I'm having a lot of difficulty winning the Deadguy Ale match-up. Thoughtseize, IoK, Dark Confidant, SFM, Batterskull, Liliana, Vindicate, Wasteland, and Karakas just prove to be too much disruption and too quick of a clock. I'm never able to get my mana developed, and around turn 5-6, I'm dead.
I'm running Rock Lee's list. I made some minor changes to test some new things and to adjust for my meta (heavy aggro/mid-range). These changes were (starting from RL's 25NOV12 list): MAIN: -2 Brainstorm, -1 Tropical Island, +2 Jace, TMS, +1 Misty Rainforest. SIDEBOARD: -2 Beast Within, -1 Spellskite, +1 Venser, +2 Surgical Extraction
I decided to forgo Brainstorm (I know it's the best card in the format, don't remind me) due to the lack of 'traditional' shuffle effects in the deck. A traditional shuffle effect is a fetchland - RL's list runs 3. I know there are Crop Rotations, and Expedition Maps, Primeval Titans, and Eye of Ugins. However, these methods just weren't cutting it. Usually, when you want to Brainstorm, you are in a bad spot. Using Crop Rotation as a shuffle effect requires that you have 2 colored mana, or BS eot and Crop Rotate on your upkeep. E. Map requires an additional 2 mana. I found the times that I needed to Brainstorm, the shuffle effects were too mana intensive, so I was basically using Brainstorm to draw a card. I decided on JTMS because he is a permanent out, he has some synergy with bouncing dudes or protecting the board, and he can legend-rule other player's Jaces.
The only deck I'm consistently beating is UW - slow clock and they leave our mana-base unmolested. I know this deck takes a great deal of experience to pilot; perhaps I'm just not there yet. I find that I'm always 'stuck in the middle' with my mana base - either not enough colored sources to cast a Primeval Titan or too little mana to cast an Eldrazi. Liliana has been a real beat-stick. When she comes down on turn 2 or 3, it's pretty much GG. Thoughts, suggestions?
Against Aggro, I know the plan -> survive or try to race with an early S&T. Against Control, I know the plan -> Keep hitting your land drops and win through threat density. Against Mid-Range, I'm getting 'stuck in the middle' -> Their early disrupting is crippling me and I end up with a semi-developed board, 3-4 cards in hand, and 0 life.
Perhaps it's best to just play it safe and go for protection first. I've also had some trouble vs. BUG Landstill. The Surgicals help in that match-up, but it's just tough when they land man-lands and an early Standstill. It almost made me want to play Wasteland, even as a sideboard slot. I guess I can Vesuva their manlands and block and just keep making my land drops. But Wasteland with Life from the Loam breaks this deck's back.
Nice report and congratulations to my team mate. We'll be ready on the 80k Legacy tournament :) Ant is a bitch to play against, you have to know and practice beating it even with 12 sideboard cards lol It sucks that they miscomputed for our team prize and we have to return the cards. Booo!Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Congrats! nice to see turbo eldrazi making top 8 here!
@blindspotxxx
what do you mean wrong calculation? We were the team with 41 points, And your team had 43 right? so who won? :D
Congrats! A Revised Plateau is better than nothing!Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
How many Wastelands did you face? How many Liliana's? How much dedicated land destruction?
It looks like 4 Wastelands vs. RUG (draw) and possible Wastelands vs. BG Rock and/or UW Miracles (although Caleb's BG Rock and UW can run less than the full playset of Wastelands).
There was a team with 44 apparently... I was informed by our Judge... They didn't know about it until an hour after Top 8 started, so I dunno if the winning team even knows. Anyway, it's not a big deal to return the prize it's still all on-hand anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by karaxu
Only the RUG Delver had Wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
The Rock was the only matchup with LotV.
Nic Fit was using Vindicate + Eternal Witness to slow down my lands whenever he can, but i shut off Recurring Nightmare, so that put an end to it after a few turns.
Good catch, writing posts at 6 am in the morning isn't the best idea. Go working nights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
No brainstorm is what is killing you against Deadguy ale. you beat Deadguy by making your turn 3-4 significantly better than theirs. They lose to Primeval titan hitting play, but I can respect them having a dangerous threat/clock in Confidant chugging along. I've actually been testing Pongify, as crazy as it sounds exactly for this reason. Crazy testing aside though, All is Dust wipes them out, as does titan. You play for turn 3-4, and brainstorm hides your threats until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Thanks for the response. Liliana of the Viel and Leyline of the Void have the same initials. I spent a good 10 seconds wondering why the hell it mattered that The Rock was running Leyline of the Void and why the heck he would bring it in against Turbo Eldrazi, and then it all made sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
You really think the 2 Brainstorms are going to matter that much? A couple of times, I did draw All is Dust, but it just didn't matter. The turn before I was going to be able to cast it (Cloudpost, Glimmervoid, Eye of Ugin, Cloudpost (coming into play tapped)) he Vindicates one of my Cloudposts. Overall, he drew pretty well. Against Tempo decks (and Combo decks), it's hard not to lose to god draws (i.e. when they've played every card in their hand by turn 4 and have a commanding board state).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Thanks for the advice. Generally, I'm seeing this deck's plan vs:
Aggro/Combo - just try to survive - find Chasm
Midrange - get to turn 3/4 with enough lands to drop your bombs
Control - who cares? the longer the game goes, the more chance you have a winning
The 2 Brainstorm choice is very recent, and a theoretical change. I'm all over on it. currently testing a version with 4 brainstorm again. Take it with a grain of salt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Even with 2 Brainstorm, I think that yes it is worth it. The reason I went down to 2 is that your colored mana requirements can be very harsh early on, but against Deadguy Brainstorm is your best mana use early.
Lol sorry I thought LotV was the colloquial term for Liliana :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Don't forget about Repeals. It gave me a lot of breathing room against the RUG matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I wanted to like this deck, and really think that the idea is cool, but after play-testing this against the field, I've come to the conclusion that it's really hard to consistently win while playing combo unless: a.) you're really fast (Belcher, Dredge) or b.) you have lots of protection (Show'n'Tell/Omniscience, old-school Flash) or c.) you're a well-balanced mix of both (ANT, High Tide)
You shouldn't play this deck like a combo deck, try to play it more like a control deck and you might get better results.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Played a small 3 round legacy tournament yesterday (Sadly, there's not a lot of legacy players where i live). Went 2-1, loosing in the last round against high tide because i missread the situation and didn't needle his candelabra.
my 2 wins was against goblins and monoblack contamination.
Then the situation with no counterspells and very little board or hand control becomes even more of a problem, because control deck implies even more of a "slow clock".Quote:
Originally Posted by zathe922
As has been mentioned Ad Nauseam, this is the hardest deck to play in Legacy. I frequently still make play errors that cost me matches. The events where I am well rested, sharp and attentive are the ones I win. The ones where I am slacking, playing sloppy and tired are the ones I do well, but ultimately do not take the top prize. The deck always provides me the tools the win with extremely rare exceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I would be curious as to the math and numbers behind your testing. I have two-fisted tested extensively (20 matches each) and recorded my findings against the major combo archetypes. I post these results often and have in the development thread. So far there are only two combo decks that are not favorable matchups, including post-side games, and those are Elves & MUD. Without those numbers, a statement such as "its really hard to consistently win" is simply anecdotal.
In addition to this, the possibility opens up that a lack of understanding about the deck as was mentioned, such as playing the deck as a combo deck, may be the real reasoning.
From my experience, if a deck is "harder" to play, it means that there is less margin for error within individual matches. The cause for a decreased margin for error can usually be attributed to a lower level of raw power and efficiency. Decks with such a razor thin margin for error are simply ill-suited to be tournament-winning decks. Even the smartest, most seasoned player will have lapses in concentration during matches - therefore, his success in a tournament will then depend on the consistency and power of his deck. Because of this, the top-placing decks are most frequently the most consistent and efficient decks - RUG Delver and Maverick now, Vengevine Survival a while back, and further back CounterTop. Even the best players appreciate a wider margin for error. Only a fool would turn down the opportunity to enjoy a wider margin for error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I have to admit that my testing has not been exhaustive and mostly does fall under the category of "anecdotal". I have spent the past week playing this deck against the majority of the DTB field (Delver, Goblins, Stoneblade, Miracles, Maverick, Storm) both online and against friends. Clearly my testing has not been as thorough as yours and thus my opinion is not a definitive one. However, as merely an observer from afar, I wanted to add my personal opinion on this creation. I mean not to disrespect the labor involved in tuning and playtesting this deck. I did, though, want to sound a cautionary note about the precarious positioning of this deck, as it currently exists, along historically immutable archetype definitions - based on limited anecdotal experience, of course.Quote:
I would be curious as to the math and numbers behind your testing. I have two-fisted tested extensively (20 matches each) and recorded my findings against the major combo archetypes. I post these results often and have in the development thread. So far there are only two combo decks that are not favorable matchups, including post-side games, and those are Elves & MUD. Without those numbers, a statement such as "its really hard to consistently win" is simply anecdotal.
The same type of limited anecdotal testing led me to identify U/B Reanimator as the best deck in the time period right after the unbanning of Entomb before the Pros began to acknowledge the potency of that deck, and prior to the Mystical Tutor banning which neutered the deck's versatility and redundancy which made it a clear Tier-1 choice.
Similarly, when Vengevine began to infiltrate the Survival archetype and explode its level of power beyond even the regular Tier-1 denizens, it was relatlively easy to play that deck or even merely look at a decklist to realize the raw power, consistency, and resultant margin for error in that particular iteration - it not only played a full suite of blue protection, but featured an extremely efficient and low-cost engine with multiple redundancy points and powerful alternative win conditions.
You just get that "feeling" of raw power in your hands when you play-tested those decks due to the combination of speed and protection and resiliency that you don't even approach with this deck, aside from the stellar late-game inevitability. The "feeling" that I get from playing this deck is similar to the feeling that I got playing something like Mono Blue Control - it has all of the tools to win vs. anything in the format, and it even has some "blowout" matchups that completely fold to your specific gameplan, but in most matches vs. the tier decks you have to play almost perfectly, and it takes a great toll on you mentally, and even the slightest error can lead to a close loss after a grinding series of turns.
Consistent winning almost always involves an inherent margin for error. Even if you don't play your tightest game, RUG Delver, in your hands as a pilot, will out-efficient the competition and gift you games you shouldn't have won with a different deck that demands tighter play. That's my reasoning behind the "hard to consistently win" statement. Sure, if you can master the lines of play of this deck and count on yourself to maintain razor-sharp focus throughout several hours of tournament play, then maybe you can top8 with this deck regularly. But why play a deck that demands this when you can play a more consistent, efficient deck with better answers that doesn't necessarily punish you for sub-optimal play?
If you play this deck like a control deck, then what are your tools of control? I can use Repeal as a control function rather than a stalling tactic, but in that mode it is still merely a tempo play. I can fetch Glacial Chasm, but that, again, is not a lock as much as it is a stalling tactic for a combo deck, and one that is susceptible to the ubiquitous Wasteland (when you don't have Pithing Needle in every opening hand). This deck doesn't really run any hard card-advantage control tools like board sweepers, unless you play All is Dust.Quote:
In addition to this, the possibility opens up that a lack of understanding about the deck as was mentioned, such as playing the deck as a combo deck, may be the real reasoning.
I think you're confusing my statement about "needing to play the deck at a higher level than other decks ask" with deck inefficiency or impotency. I'm talking about the 3-4 difficult decisions per-Swiss you'll need to make to ensure a Top-8 placing. If you can't see the power behind the deck in its current form, then I strongly believe you are playing it too aggressively.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Again, if you can't see how this deck is a control deck, then I either question your definition of a control deck, mine being a deck that sacrifices tempo for implied late game card advantage, or you are missing the incredible advantage that this deck generates through massive mana generation.Quote:
If you play this deck like a control deck, then what are your tools of control? I can use Repeal as a control function rather than a stalling tactic, but in that mode it is still merely a tempo play. I can fetch Glacial Chasm, but that, again, is not a lock as much as it is a stalling tactic for a combo deck, and one that is susceptible to the ubiquitous Wasteland (when you don't have Pithing Needle in every opening hand). This deck doesn't really run any hard card-advantage control tools like board sweepers, unless you play All is Dust.
The fact that each decision has a greater effect on the outcome of the game, and the fact htat minute decisions can drastically affect the chances of winning or losing a game speak to the reduced level of power of a deck. Think of this as you would a football game: teams that win games 20-17 often are worse than teams that blow out opponents 40-6 on average. Each play of every game has more meaning and heft in the former case and random events such as a blocked punt or a fumble recovery can mean the difference between winning and losing. The latter team prevents individual random events from dramatically affecting the outcome of their game - if a single play doesn't go their way, they can still win convincingly by a score of 40-13. Individual decisions making less impact on the outcome of a game is a good thing and speaks to the power level of a deck (or team).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Control decks are all about trading cards, breaking even on card advantage early in the game, and then slowly amassing an insurmountable wall of card advantage through late-game draw engines or something else that generates card advantage (the Eye of Ugin -> Eldrazi engine does indeed qualify) which gives them the ability to 1-for-1 ad infinitum later in the game. I don't see the ability to trade 1-for-1 in the early game. Repeal is a tempo tool but not a really a way to even break even on card advantage in a way that affects the board state permanently like say, a Swords to Plowshares would. You're playing tempo tools - that would fit better in a combo shell - in a control role.Quote:
Again, if you can't see how this deck is a control deck, then I either question your definition of a control deck, mine being a deck that sacrifices tempo for implied late game card advantage, or you are missing the incredible advantage that this deck generates through massive mana generation.
Tutoring for Glacial Chasm or Glimmerpost are similar tempo plays without the ability to permanently affect the board state. Chasm is a source of virtual card advantage similar to Moat (vs. aggro decks) but in a far more temporary vein.
You play to survive the first few turns, and then late game you have the biggest bombs you could ever want. It is like a normal control deck, except instead of slamming a 4 mana Jace, you have a 15 mana win the game single card combo.
Hey rock lee I've seen you with this deck at a few events and I play at Ice sometimes. I'm the kid who hangs around with Mike Weiss.
Anyway, I was talking to my friend about this deck and he was under the impression that it's "too cute" because in a fast format like legacy inevitability doesn't matter. He has a lot of experience playing legacy, but he's one of those people who won't play an event unless it's with TES or RUG b/c he's elitist. I don't know where he gets this idea because there are plenty of non-combo decks in legacy that you just steamroll, UW miracles and stoneblade for example are always popular b/c Spikes always love to play them.
I think it would be nice if you included matchup analyses for TES, High Tide, other combo etc.
I included a brief breakdown in the 1st post of the Established Decks thread where the other matchup analyses are. Let me know for more combo breakdowns you need/want.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLaSageOwl
About your friend, I love people who think this way. They are often the ones shaking their head trying to figure out how they just lost to something "too cute." Numbers are all that matter when it comes to meta analysis and deck choice. This deck is putting up those numbers with a highly small number of pilots, something no other archetype is doing per-person playing it. Deck representation is not the same as deck potency.
While we're at it, could someone please explain the proper use of Crop Rotation (besides not walking into a counterspell)?
I know this question may sound foolish, childish even, but Crop Rotation is definite card disadvantage.
The obvious use is 'saving' your land from a Wasteland, in which case you obtain parity.
Crop Rotation requires a colored source, of which this deck has 6. You usually don't want to sacrifice that colored source, so, you'll looking to sacrifice something else. You really don't want to lose a Cloudpost, usually I'm tutoring for Cloudpost or a Glimmerpost (if I need life), or a Glacial Chasm (to save my butt), or an Eye of Ugin if I have sufficient mana. However, the 3rd-4th turn play of 'sac my Tropical Island to grab a Cloudpost' hasn't been that great.
Anyhow, maybe I am just doing it wrong. Back to testing...
I played at the same event as Rock Lee this saturday and as my first tourny with this deck i gotta say its a blast. I ended up a sad 2-2-1 but i learned so much just watching Lee play the deck. The sensei top repeal tricks blew my mind as a dig engine and I feel like this deck is so powerful against so many archetypes. After the event i actually considered testing out batterskull as an anti aggro card. Because i felt as if having it may help stabilize in scenarios where getting the two green for primaeval titan can be hard to get quickly enough to stabilize. I feel though this falls into the same category as wurmcoil engine and I feel like this has probably already been tested but some decks just lose to a big lifelinker which can sometimes be easier to cast than a titan in a pinch.
Thragtusk is not outside the realm of possibility against aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonberryx
Based on my experience with the deck, I typically use Crop Rotation in the following ways:Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
1. To fetch silver bullet lands (i.e. Bojuka Bog against Reanimator/Dredge, Glacial Chasm/Tabernacle against aggro, Karakas against SnT decks)
2. In response to Land Denial from my opponent (Wasteland, Sinkhole, Vindicate, etc.)
3. To grab Eye of Ugin or Karakas during the Showtime turn (i.e. the turn you intend to play the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any of the other boys)
I seldom use Crop Rotation as a way to ramp up my lands. I always rely on Exped Map and Primeval Titan to do this. But then again, in most of the actual games where I see the possibility of using Crop Rot as a way to ramp up, my opponents are playing blue, so it was typically too risky to do.
Against Miracles, I've always sided out Crop Rotation Games 2 and 3, and it has worked for me so far.
Against RUG, I tend to keep it as an answer to Wasteland. Even if they counter it, the land dies anyway, so I spent 1 card to rid my opponent of 1 counterspell, which sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Brainstorm is definitely a good way to reshuffle away the excessive Crop Rotations, but current build only has 2. Probably depends on the Metagame if the Brainstorm count will go up again.
I'm actually a bit worried on how it plays against the BUG Delver matchup. I might up the Brainstorm count to fight against the discard, but I'm at a loss on what to cut for extra Brainstorms.
Anybody done extensive testing against BUG?
Don't worry too much on BUG Delver. If you can resolve a Top both of you will go to Top Deck mode eventually and you just need to ramp up. BUG Control however is a different story. It has Dark Confidant and Discard and Counters and Planeswalkers maybe too many problem cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
I highly doubt that people can switch decks that easy as well as there are a scarcity of Duals in our country lol Underground Seas are pretty rare. RUG people will stick to RUG and will probably not convert :) People will most probably play the same decks they've had and only a few teams can afford to swap decks at will.