[Primer/Deck] Pox

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

You assume you can play underworld dreams before he play standstill, and that it will not be countered. Also,do you really want it in main deck?

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I run Dark Rituals so it is possible, though unlikely. With 8 Discard main deck that can be cast before I hard cast Dreams, I'm quite confident it's chance of getting countered is low.

Main deck? Probably not. The majority of people in my meta don't run hard draw often, though one other person runs howling mine. I do admit, 3 mana is steep for this enchantment's effect.

For Lightning, your Dark Rituals when topdecked can help fuel Cursed Scroll, however, as Hardcore says, I'd rather run Dark Rit in a monoblack version of the deck for color consistency. For land, I'd go with 24-26 land with more Bayous, Verdant Catacomb, and a single basic forest. 4 Urborgs? You've got 8 colorless manas sources, that demands the full playset.

With only three green cards I don't see any reason not to play DR. Yes, they could be replaced with better suited cards: Deed, Pulse, Loam for instance. Maybe even Mox Diamond for manafixing. If you want to go green, play more green, but with this few cards... DR ain't that bad

To have the ability to interact with the stack, or at least cast spells on opponents turn, is important. Unfortunately this is not one of the strengths of the color black. Still, there are a few cards that at the very least can make your opponent stumble at the wrong moment.

The following cards are instants, and cost B or less.

Misinformation. This card looks good, literally, which is the main reason I will test it tomorrow. However it does some crazy things against my poor match-ups like combo and UW control.
Those decks rely on cards not suddenly move around at the wrong moment. For example, when the storm player activate LED after playing Past in flames he expect the rituals to be in his graveyard, and not on top of his deck. Then there is the typical blue cantrip deck. Brainstorming becomes a time walk if all the see is cards that was in the graveyard a moment ago. Preferably expensive cards, or those of marginal value like Daze.

It is also nice vs Dredge.

Next is Archive trap.
A blue spell that can be cast for zero mana if your opponent search his library the same turn.
Iirc that is what you do when fetching, right?
Or play enlightened Tutor. Or use any of the many search effects that exist in legacy today.
The idea with this spell is the same as above; to disrupt the opponents timing. Main advantage is the casting cost of nil,nada,zero. The surprise value should be great first time.

Funeral charm. This card need no presentation. It has several useful abilities but those are weak on their own. What makes it worth playing occasionally is that it is the only instant speed discard there is, afaik. To force a combo player discard a card at the wrong time, for him, can make "all the difference in the world, Mr Freeman".

Disruption is not only discard and counterspells. Misplacing peoples stuff tend to make them upset too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

To have the ability to interact with the stack, or at least cast spells on opponents turn, is important. Unfortunately this is not one of the strengths of the color black. Still, there are a few cards that at the very least can make your opponent stumble at the wrong moment.

The following cards are instants, and cost B or less.

Misinformation. This card looks good, literally, which is the main reason I will test it tomorrow. However it does some crazy things against my poor match-ups like combo and UW control.
Those decks rely on cards not suddenly move around at the wrong moment. For example, when the storm player activate LED after playing Past in flames he expect the rituals to be in his graveyard, and not on top of his deck. Then there is the typical blue cantrip deck. Brainstorming becomes a time walk if all the see is cards that was in the graveyard a moment ago. Preferably expensive cards, or those of marginal value like Daze.

It is also nice vs Dredge.

Next is Archive trap.
A blue spell that can be cast for zero mana if your opponent search his library the same turn.
Iirc that is what you do when fetching, right?
Or play enlightened Tutor. Or use any of the many search effects that exist in legacy today.
The idea with this spell is the same as above; to disrupt the opponents timing. Main advantage is the casting cost of nil,nada,zero. The surprise value should be great first time.

Funeral charm. This card need no presentation. It has several useful abilities but those are weak on their own. What makes it worth playing occasionally is that it is the only instant speed discard there is, afaik. To force a combo player discard a card at the wrong time, for him, can make "all the difference in the world, Mr Freeman".

Disruption is not only discard and counterspells. Misplacing peoples stuff tend to make them upset too.

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I ran both Misinformation and Funeral Charm. Charm is a monster vs. 1 mana drop decks. Elves, Lackey, Bob, Hierarch, (not DRS :(), Unflipped Delver, etc. give charm great killing potential. Using Charm on Nether Spirit to chump a 4 toughness creature is awesome 1 for 1. Top decking something? [FUNERAL CHARM, end of Draw step!] Aww, could have used that land huh? ^_^

Misinformation I'd use after a few smallpoxes and sinkholes since they're going to discard their most expensive cards to the poxes, putting them back is like a Triple time walk. No more land for 3 turns? Sure ting ^_^

Archive trap I would not recommend. The vast majority of Legacy Decks like having big graveyards. Threshold, Lavamancer, Re-animator, combo decks using PiF, etc. I'm sure it'd cut down any rogue decks that avoid GY use but I don't think those exist in Legacy. Heck, even Zoo wouldn't mind a bigger Goyf.

Don't know how I missed this at first, but somehow I did, glad I double checked, anyhow, it's about a week later than it should be, but updated with a new pox list, this time a Loam Pox list, though still mostly swamp's more than anything else, in either case, congrats to John Prather who made the top 16 at SCG Seattle with this:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=55308
Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (25)
2 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells (30)
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Mox Diamond
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
1 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb
3 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Hi. ive been away from MTG for some time, but recently my old friends from highschool invited me for a tournment.

They know all the cards i had back then, so they know i would take affinity or burn and they will sideboard against those decks.
Unfortunatly for them, i made a Pox deck when i was in university, so im going to take it.

Im expecting combo(that guy always plays combo, prolly Dragonstorm with discard), Elves, Goblins (this guy is very skilled), Burn, MonoWhite control (gain life / defend then spam beaters / decree of justice for wincon, real gay), and maybe affinity.


This is my list:

[3 Planeswalkers]
3 Liliana of the Veil

[7 Creatures]
4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
1 Nether Spirit

[24 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Smother
1 Pox
1 Syphon Life


[4 Artifacts]
4 The Rack

[22 Lands]
4 Mishra’s Factory
18 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Null Rod
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Syphon Life
1 Damnation
3 Infest
4 Leyline of the Void


I think i need to work it a little. I would rather take Spinning Darkness instead of syphon life but i dont have them. I do have a ton of other black cards like despise, go for the throat, shriekmaw, cabal therapy, BoB (i just dont run it cuz tombstalker), etc etc
I can also splash white if i want.

I think i need mostly:

Instant removal.
E. Plague instead of infest.
A solid answer for combo decks.
Some kind of life gain (sun droplet?) because Syphon Life is bad without Loam.
Im also worried Bloodghast wont be strong enough.
Is Necroplasm worth a slot?

Any thoughts?

@ Tiago_B:
- I never really liked Nether Spirit with other creatures, but that's just me.
- I really recommend the 4th Liliana, she can be Beast.
- E. Plague is in my opinion much better than Infest: same cmc and stays on the field.
- Dark Ritual can be good, but others here have dropped it in favour to some more action.

Just my thoughts.

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So I played a tournament today, 26-something attended. Five rounds with a top 8.

The list:

Creatures (1)

1 Nether Spirit

Spells (25)

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Other spells (4)

2 Nether Void
2 Cursed Scroll

Planeswalkers (4)

4 Liliana of the Veil

Land (26)

1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mirre
3 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp

Sideboard (15)

1 Dystopia
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perish


I played against the following (didn't make extended notes)

R1 Jund:

I know him from the regular gatherings on friday-evening and know what he plays.

G1: He just lands a Bob and Library and walks all over me with cardadvantage. I did manage to get rid of some cards, but it was just too much.
G2: I just take the game, blowing lands and creatures away. Cursed Scroll and Liliana land, ensuring me the board stays clear and I can go for the kill.
G3: I make sure no creatures can attack, using E. Bridge. We went to time, him only having a Bob. I try to stall and it looks like I'm going to, but then he rips a Pulse from the top and I am done.

L, 1-0

R2 Team America:

Of the same group of guys who play every friday night.

G1: I draw like a champ, killing Delver(I. Blood), Delver (I. Blood), Goyf (Decay) and Delver (I. Blood). After that I start controlling the board by going for lands with Waste-Loam Engine, Sinkhole. Liliana takes care with cards in his hand, while Cursed Scroll and Factories take me home.
G2: Pretty much the same as above.

W, 1-1

R3 RUG

Yet again an regular of friday night testing!

G1: RUG does what RUG does best; landing little nasty creatures and countering almost everything that threatens their winning position.
G2: He boards in Sulfuric Vortex and lands it while I have the better boardposition. I just can't find an answer and die horribly...

L, 1-2

R4 Elves!

A new guy I never met. He just got his deck together.

G1: he plays some, I kill some. I take care of all his land, but can't get rid of all the manadorks he had landed. Eventually I can't keep up (no threat, no removal) and he lands Glimpse, playing this beast giving all his creatures +x/ +x for each creature he control. Ouch...
G2: I take care of all the little nasty Elves, eventually landing a Scroll which keeps the board clear. Everything went really really slow. This was a really weird game, for he could have landed a Proggy. Yet he was new to the game and did the following:

Boardstate was the following: he had Cradle, Cavern, Concordian Crossroads and two Elves (Nettle Sentinal and manadork). I had three+ land (two were Factories), Scroll and a Lilly in my hand (along with some other cards). He taps, but then decided to attack first. I block with Factory, giving it +1/ +1, killing it. Then he plays Order, saccing his manadork dropping Proggy and declares to attack again. I pointed out his misplay and he then gave me the turn. I then drop Lilly (making him sac Proggy)E. Bridge and with the help of three Factories and Scroll.

G3: E. Plague, Scroll, E. Bridge and Lilly do what has to be done: kill Elves.

W 2-2

R5 RB, don't know exactly what it really is

The pilot is also one of the guys I test my deck with, so we know what to expect.

G1: I start to poorly, but manage to keep up for some while. Eventually he just keeps pounding into me, while I lack answers and defence...
G2: Same as above, but I manage to take over the board on one life... The inevitable happens and he rips burn from the top...

L 2-3

All in all, I really dig Loam-Pox. Some thoughts:

- Nether Void is just too slow. I sided it out every round. Going to replace them with Sensei's Divining Top.
- Ghost Quarter is nice, but didn't really gave me a good feeling. I only used once or twice, one time killing my own land to find a desperately needed Swamp! Going to drop it for a second Pulse
- Going to replace IoK with Hymn: just want to rip that hand :-p Maybe go the classic way: 3 IoK and 4 Hymn, with Thoughtseize in the board.
- Going to replace Nether Spirit and I. Blood for 4 Deathrite Shaman: manadork after Sinkhole,Waste or Smallpox, but also four extra wincons (if they stay in the field that is). Of course it will sometimes get killed by Smallpox, but hey! just trying something new here :-) Some of the guys I know from tournaments came up with this idea and I must say: I like it. Not sure if it will work, though.
- SB will also change:

1 Duress
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed (really missed this card...)
3 Extirpate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiago_B.

Hi. ive been away from MTG for some time, but recently my old friends from highschool invited me for a tournment.

Im expecting combo(that guy always plays combo, prolly Dragonstorm with discard), Elves, Goblins (this guy is very skilled), Burn, MonoWhite control (gain life / defend then spam beaters / decree of justice for wincon, real gay), and maybe affinity.


This is my list:

[3 Planeswalkers]
3 Liliana of the Veil

[7 Creatures]
4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
1 Nether Spirit

[24 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Smother
1 Pox
1 Syphon Life


[4 Artifacts]
4 The Rack

[22 Lands]
4 Mishra’s Factory
18 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Null Rod
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Syphon Life
1 Damnation
3 Infest
4 Leyline of the Void


I think i need to work it a little. I would rather take Spinning Darkness instead of syphon life but i dont have them. I do have a ton of other black cards like despise, go for the throat, shriekmaw, cabal therapy, BoB (i just dont run it cuz tombstalker), etc etc
I can also splash white if i want.

I think i need mostly:

Instant removal.
E. Plague instead of infest.
A solid answer for combo decks.
Some kind of life gain (sun droplet?) because Syphon Life is bad without Loam.
Im also worried Bloodghast wont be strong enough.
Is Necroplasm worth a slot?

Any thoughts?

---

Lifegain is not neccessary, but you need removal to avoid being overwhelmed by creatures.

If you have confidants then you should run them instead of tombstalkers. They are expensive as hell for a good reason!

Smother is not that awesome. Neither is Syphon Life. You won't have much need for Dark rituals either.

-2 Tombstalker
-2 Smother
-1 Syphon Life
-4 Dark Ritual

+1 Pox
+2 Swamp
+3 Darkblast (awesome card, especially vs delvers, Lavamancer and elves. To mention a few. Works very well with Dark Confidant and Bloodghast. It also works well with spinning dorkness. Or to be more precise; you need dredge abilities to run spinning darkness at all.)
+3 Raven's crime (to maximise effectiveness of liliana and The rack)

For sideboard:

-1 Syphon Life
-1 Damnation (it cost too much to cast)

+1 Infest (four copies of this card is good. There is nothing called overkill in winning)
+1 Ratchet Bomb perhaps? Not unreasonable to run four copies. You have nothing else to against enchantments like Rest in peace and Sulfuric Vortex.

@Chatto

If you play Loam and wasteland you don't really need Sinkholes. It would be more effective to replace them with two Entomb to make the engine start faster. Of course, you lose tempo by using a land to destroy a land, rather than use a sorcery,but this is not a tempo deck after all.

I recommend Darkblast for you too. You need more creature defence. DB do kills the Confidants that cost you the first game. (Also, GREAT synergy with loam!)

Next you need to kill your opponent faster, which means more win conditions need to be added to the deck.
The Rack is always nice with discard, especially with Raven's crime (that work well with loam).

so, out:

2 Nether void and 4 Sinkhole. I am not sure how good Cursed Scroll is. It is in a way Liliana of the Veil in artifact form.

In:

2 Entomb, 2 raven's crime and 4 The rack

A difference of mere two cards, but that is easy to fix for you:)

I hope this new list seems better. Thanks for the insight from you guys, and specially Ballinmd for helping me out.

[3 Planeswalkers]
3 Liliana of the Veil

[5 Creatures]
3 Tombstalker
2 Abyssal Persecutor

[23 Spells]
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
2 Shrieking Affliction
2 Go for the Throat


[7 Artifacts]
3 The Rack
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Ratchet Bomb

[22 Lands]
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
17 Swamp

SD:

3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Infest
4 Pithing Needle
?


Is the land count too low?
Animate Dead is kind of an experiment, could be reanimate or exhume instead, or something else more 'usual' in Pox decks, like LD (Choking Sands or Rancid Earth). I will be facing aggros mostly so its decent i guess.
Should Cabal Therapy become 3 for 3 IoK?
I know i should run BoB instead of stalkers since i have tops.

EDITED After changes. Added Percy, took out Tops, Animate Dead, Contagion.

@Tiago,

I love Contagion. But the sad truth is that is not as good as it used to be:frown: when I ran it in my Necro deck back in the days. Darkblast simply is better because contagion can only be a "1 for1" effect, but one Darkblast can shut down a whole deck (for example Elves).

Animate Dead is something of a Meta choice. However you will find you usually rather draw something else than that card. This is the case with all cards that are conditional and were you have no way to influence conditions.

Cabal therapy need bloodghasts and similar recurring creatures be used at maximum efficiency.
Otherwise you are not using the card to its full potential.

You don't need BoB to run tops, but you do need run some fetch lands.

Thats all for now. Gotta run!

I'm Christopher Powell and my deck is posted on here for SCG 12' Provinece


Creatures (5)
1 Filth
4 Gravecrawler

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (25)
11 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells (26)
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void

Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 The Rack
2 Tombstalker
3 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Spinning Darkness


I read in some of these posts that Pox's late game need work and I feel that my decklist provides something pox is much in need of, a clock.
Being able to play a turn 1 recurring beater applys more pressure to an opponent and can bring a close many games earlier on then a triditional list.
I seem to win many more games with the 6 manlands and 4 creatures then with 1, maybe 2 copies of a creature more suited for blocking (Nether Spirit).
I have recently made a small adjustment to the list to add a 2nd Nether Void over the Filth. While Filth is good and all i just seemed to have the game won already before i binned my 1 copy of him, but I'm sure he'll find his way into the sideboard. The most optimal play with the deck is often leading with an Inqusition first and the Gravecaller 2nd to scope out potental threats. Keep in mind that the Gravecaller can still be played turn 1 if you have no Inqusition or via Dark Ritual.

In it's Star City Games run I lost round 3 to Ant Tendrils where my opponent won the die roll and won the games 1+3 before I could even draw a card. Game 2 I won with turn 1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Inqusition, Hymn to Torach, turn 2: Swamp, Gravecaller, Dark Ritual, Liliana. Needless to say, he did not do so well... but we know how strong he finished. I also lost round 7 to mono-green Vengevine Elves, I did not see Vengevine until game 3 and I even had 2 Engenerred Plagues out but he bagged the Vengevines until he could bin them then pretty much discarded 2 elves to beat face... it was a sad match and i didn't bring in my graveyard hate in layline of the voids cause I did not suspect Vengevine. I have ADD and play less well as the night rolls in.

I won rounds against mono-blue control Feat. Jace 2.0 where I inadvertently deduced that I had a 2nd use for sideboard in The Rack, I Figured out that I can sent The Rack's damage straight to Jace which was most likely responsable for winning me the match. It was very satisfying watching my opponent Fateseal himself to dig for an answer he would never find. I won against Red Deck Wins using a priority rule to bring back Gravecallers and beat to the face while leaving him with no more then 2 land all game. By the way the priority thing I did was animate Mutavalt retaining priority, when i had prioriy and the "zombie" mutavault I cast Gravecaller from my Graveyard also retaining priority, so the only time he could bolt a creature was after I have had another so he wasted one lightning bolt before giving up realising that there was nothing he could do to stop me from getting 3 Gravecallers in play. I also played against RUG Delver which was a walk in the park for me, turn 1: Ritual, Inqusition, Hymn that ripped 2 land on the play and followed up with a turn 2 Sinkhole. The one delver he got on the table was not longed for this world and again Gravecaller beats get there.

Several of my opponents comented postively on my deck so i figured i would post on a pox forum to find out what other people thought. I am also aware of the E. Plague/Mutavault interactions and in matches where they are brought in i bring with them Racks and Tombstalker as a "just in case" messure.

Any and all sugestions are welcomed. And By the way, playing this list in a Loam Pox scenario list is very fun being to dredge all my creatures to play pretty much, but I can't seem to get the compisition perfect. I have come in 4th place with it 4 or 5 times but my local store only pays out to 3rd place or better without splits. Thanks a bunch

Thanks for sharing!

I wanted to find room in your main deck for The Rack. It is a very good card that help diversify your win conditions and thus reduce your vulnerability to hate. I would suggest replacing your mishras with The Rack. They don't have synergy with grave crawlers.

Next I would also try squeezeDarkBlast in there. Instant removal is not only needed (because you have none), but give you the means to do nasty combat tricks!
Oh, the dredge ability also has synergy with some zombies...:cool:
Not sure what to replace, but the nether voids don't seem to be the cards for a deck with faster clock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Thanks for sharing!

I wanted to find room in your main deck for The Rack. It is a very good card that help diversify your win conditions and thus reduce your vulnerability to hate. I would suggest replacing your mishras with The Rack. They don't have synergy with grave crawlers.

Next I would also try squeezeDarkBlast in there. Instant removal is not only needed (because you have none), but give you the means to do nasty combat tricks!
Oh, the dredge ability also has synergy with some zombies...:cool:
Not sure what to replace, but the nether voids don't seem to be the cards for a deck with faster clock.

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I can't cut the factories because I really need my land count to be 25, some games I side out 1 land and even that really affects my base significantly. Plus the 2 factory can pump mutavault and give me 2 extra creatures that can block if needed. But darkblast is a card worth considering. Maybe I'll take out the second nether void for it, I still wanna keep 1 in cause every time I nail it down I have won that game. I also made a smaller change in swapping out 2 swamp for 2 cabal pit. So far they haven't hurt me at all cause I usually get them with urborg support and they give me some type of out against certain decks.

I can see you have mana issues;11 swamps and four Urborg is not much when you need double black on turn two play any of the twelve spells thatt require that.
My guess is also that you don't like playing smallpox,right? You need to revise your mana base Imho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardcore

I can see you have mana issues;11 swamps and four Urborg is not much when you need double black on turn two play any of the twelve spells thatt require that.
My guess is also that you don't like playing smallpox,right? You need to revise your mana base Imho.

---

I get that my mana base appairs a little shakey but I have never had much of a problem with it, I alway manage to open with either 2 black sources or an urborg opening hand. I can see how I may just be very luckey in that but I only mull 1 in every 9-10 hand to mana probs. I am also able to keep a spare hand or 2 that's loaded with just a single swamp but multiple gravecallers, inquisitions, or a ritual with some action. And I

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardcore

I can see you have mana issues;11 swamps and four Urborg is not much when you need double black on turn two play any of the twelve spells thatt require that.
My guess is also that you don't like playing smallpox,right? You need to revise your mana base Imho.

---

I get that my mana base appairs a little shakey but I have never had much of a problem with it, I alway manage to open with either 2 black sources or an urborg opening hand. I can see how I may just be very luckey in that but I only mull 1 in every 9-10 hand to mana probs. I am also able to keep a spare hand or 2 that's loaded with just a single swamp but multiple gravecallers, inquisitions, or a ritual with some action. And I play small pox often with little difficulty on my own behalf it was big pox that I hated to cast, so I pulled it out.

I've come in second with this deck locally and with a long string of top 4 splits. 12 post remains to be a huge problem for the deck having only won 1 in every 5 games or so. I alway get the post player to like 3- life then glimmer post to ruin my day. I joked about adding and did add false cure to stop that endgame strategy and it does work but there is very little else the card works for and the 12 post player plays infrequently that I always could use something else. But it is fun.

Contamination is also a card that have potential vs decks dependent on their lands. Note that it not only make lands produce black mana solely, but also limit the amount to one B!:laugh: That should be murder for ramp decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

so, out:

2 Nether void and 4 Sinkhole. I am not sure how good Cursed Scroll is. It is in a way Liliana of the Veil in artifact form.

In:

2 Entomb, 2 raven's crime and 4 The rack

---

I like the idea, but I rarely use the 'Loam'-engine. To me it's just to fragile. I think you'r right about Cursed Scroll, but don't really understand what you mean with it being a Lilly in artifact form: it has won me games, Lilly made me control the game to a certain degree.

I am currently testing Shaman and it takes some skill playing the card. Sometimes you have to sac it to Smallpox, but in the end it's really nice to have a manaramp, damagesource and lifegainer. If he sticks, he's a house! For example: T1 swamp, Shaman, T2 Wasteland, Sinkhole/ Hymn... GG! And yes it has occured on several occasions :-)

If you want green for the shaman there is Riftstone Portal. I haven't played that myself, because I am mono B, but it is a land you don't mind dredge or pox into the gravyard!

Like Chatto I see the need for faster killing. Given that I run creature pox my need will be fulfilled by negators, which I got yesterday by mail.


4 bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 nihilith
4 phyrexian negator

4 smallpox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 pox
2 duress

18 swamp
2 dakmor salvage
3 darkblast
4 innocent blood
4 dark Ritual


I may add a fourth Darkblast to the sideboard, to help clear the way for the negators

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Like Chatto I see the need for faster killing. Given that I run creature pox my need will be fulfilled by negators, which I got yesterday by mail.


4 bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 nihilith
4 phyrexian negator

4 smallpox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 pox
2 duress

18 swamp
2 dakmor salvage
3 darkblast
4 innocent blood
4 dark Ritual


I may add a fourth Darkblast to the sideboard, to help clear the way for the negators

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this looks like a really fun list hardcore. i may give it a spin after the course of my exploration of a discard pox deck i am working on.

for those of you who use the graveyard heavily how do you deal with the graveyard hate people board in?

also hardcore, what do you board in against control and combo with that list and sideboard?

My sideboard is massively against combo.


4 thorn of Amethyst
4 phyrexian Revoker
4 leyline of the void
3 perish


Note: the SB is untested and not tuned yet.
I am however quite certain the direction is correct;
The deck can easily handle creature threats, except for a hard cast Emrakul! In the later case I will rely on speed to win before that happen.
Perish is possible to do without. Diabolic edict could be a better choice (given that darn Emrakul).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beez

for those of you who use the graveyard heavily how do you deal with the graveyard hate people board in?

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Unlike, for example Dredge, the game plan rarely revolve around the graveyard to a degree that make hate crippling. It is like boarding in chains of mephistofeles versus Esperblade and expect an auto win; they just quit finesse around with cameos, play batterskull and win.

For pox it means not playing Bloodghast from the graveyard, but hard cast it. Like creatures normally should.:laugh:

But watch out for RIP + Helm combo!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beez

for those of you who use the graveyard heavily how do you deal with the graveyard hate people board in?

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I'd rather go the non-graveyard route. If you run a Pox.dec that barely uses the yard; i.e. No Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam; You can defeat decks that actually side in GY hate since the hate becomes dead. That's Virtual Card Advantage.

My decklist uses only Nether Spirit from the Yard and the board has Tomby if I find my foe doesn't run GY hate game 2. They most likely won't.

For things that can kill GY hate in mono black, you've only got a tiny handful of options.

Gate to Phyrexia: Conditional artifact hate that shows up early.
Duress: For non-Leyline GY hate
Creature GY hate? DRS, Yixlid Jailer etc: Pox doesn't care, they're gonna sac it anyway lol.
Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Enchantment GY hate: Ratchet Bomb and a Surgical Extraction on the Pithing Needle/Artifact kill on the GY hate you made them discard. aka VERY HARD to deal with.

Again, Pox shouldn't need the yard to get its job done. It's neither Loam (unless you want it to be) or a Dredge based deck. That and I hate dredging with it without SDT which then wants fetchlands which then makes you soft to stifle and well... It's a nasty can of worms... :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

(...)

Again, Pox shouldn't need the yard to get its job done. It's neither Loam (unless you want it to be) or a Dredge based deck. That and I hate dredging with it without SDT which then wants fetchlands which then makes you soft to stifle and well... It's a nasty can of worms... :eek:

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I agree! I just deny them land and/ or cards in hand. Just because I play LotL doesn't mean I depend on the GY. The only time I play LotL is when I really need the Wasteland to destroy a land to keep my opponent off balance or to get a Factory back. Dredging is another thing I rarely do. Other than that, DRS depends on the GY, but backed up with Discard, 4 Abrupt Decay and 2 Pulses (along with 3 Deeds in the board) I don't see any GY sticks for long...

I was thinking of dropping the Cursed Scroll and adding Nether Void again. Just to supplement the 'Denial Plan'. Landing one after killing of land and hand is just brutal. It does bring me back to 8 Wincons.

DRS can just give me a little edge over my opponent to keep the upper-hand. Later on it can use all spells as damage-source. Mind you, DRS can do damage even with an Ensnaring Bridge on the table, which in my opinion is pretty sweet
:-)

yeah, you guys decks seem to have some resiliency against gy hate, but some of the loam pox builds seem to really use them a lot, so I was wondering how they dealt with it. I try to use enough graveyard to be helpful but not enough to tempt them to use graveyard hate. Also Leyline of sanctity in the Show and Tell decks is showing up so much now it has gone from being a fairly easy win with all the pox sac effects and discard, to being unfavorable to a low creature pox deck like mine. it is another argument for trying an aggro pox build like hardcore's sometime. or going back to a more land-destructy build. i do love pithing needle on the board for pox a lot though.

i wonder if sideboarding Fleshbag Marauder would help any against show and tell, or whether it would even work or be useful for the slot in general.

Here is what i have been running recently. Shrieking Affliction has made me feel like discard pox is more viable than it was. Having 8 rack effects goes a long way in adding consistency to it. I find it has a pretty good midgame and typically comes from behind to win. Whereas I used to have trouble doing enough damage to finish them off before whatever soft lock i had on them dissolved, now a big pox and 3-6 damage a turn in rack effects plus whatever spirit/ghast/scroll/factory damage may occur.

4 pox
4 Smallpox
4 Lilliana
4 innocent blood
4 inquisition of Kozeliek
4 hymn to tourach
4 raven's crime
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
1 nether spirit
1 cursed scroll
1 bloodghast

4 urborg
4 mishra's factory
2 dakmor salvage
12 swamp

I do like the idea of boarding in Tombstalker. That is clever.

Maybe you guys are right. Dystopia against leyline. But without discard against counters it may be hard to cast and maverick can tutor up a cat to hate it unless you have a sac effect at the ready.

@beez, LoS is not a card that is particularly good vs pox. The odds are not great that they will have it in their hand at start. If so, what can they do? Take a Mulligan? That is perfectly all right when you want a leyline of the void in play vs Dredge. It almost guarantee a win. LoS, otoh, is to avoid being target of discard spells and an awful way to achieve that.
After all by boarding the enchantment they already weaken their deck for you. Then, because of its high casting cost, the SnT player is quite committed to doing a Mulligan if he fail to have it at start. As you can see that is a free hymn for you. If he was on the play you can respond with swamp + dark Ritual + POX to reduce him to two card in hand, no lands and a useless enchantment in play. Oh, and at 13 life, or less.

Ps. Dystopia sucks. Get The Abyss instead. Or sphere of resistance.

I did sideboard Dystopias but, when I made the deck Maverick was alot more popular overall, and locally it was just ridiculous up here, the local metagame at the time would sometimes have a Maverick deck in the room for every 4-5 players, and at an Open back in July 2012, there was as much Maverick as there was RUG, it was just absurd!

@ Hardcore: Dystopia sucks indeed (I had it in my SB, but never used it), but only because of the cumulative upkeep. It does destroy permanents, so thats pretty good. Other than that, the Abyss is far better against creature-based decks and it doesn't have cumulative upkeep :-)

Another card to consider, if you play Bg Loam, is Golgari Charm: three effects in one card. Pretty good if you ask me.

Yeah they pretty much do have to mill to it and they need to save Forces for sac effects and the edicts i bring in addition to the innocent bloods in the main board. And since the only white permanent they would have is the leyline and no way to recast it, a dystopia for one turn could be all i need with my more discard build. I do see the drawbacks as you explain them.

Distopia is probably a bit slow for elves though isn't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chatto

@ Hardcore: Dystopia sucks indeed (I had it in my SB, but never used it), but only because of the cumulative upkeep. It does destroy permanents, so thats pretty good. Other than that, the Abyss is far better against creature-based decks and it doesn't have cumulative upkeep :-)

Another card to consider, if you play Bg Loam, is Golgari Charm: three effects in one card. Pretty good if you ask me.

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Dystopia doesn't destroy permanents - it forces players to sacrifice permanents. Which is, coincidentally, very important. It also doesn't target, unlike The Abyss which does.

Additionally, I like how you're all saying the cards sucks and to just play The Abyss when both are completely different in functionality from the other. One hits non-creature permanents, which is easily more of a problem for mono-colored decks than ones that opt to run green.

The cost of Dystopia is also more attractive than the four-mana requirement for The Abyss in an attrition-based war, which is honestly much more prohibitive than playing Dystopia and paying three to five life over the course of three to five turns.

@ Hollywood, about non-targeting saccing permanents instead of destroying them; my bad, I knew that one. It just came out the wrong way (had my birthdayparty last night) In a Mono Coloured Pox deck this can be of great value, indeed, but when splashing Green like I do there are better options. That is one reason why I think it is bad card choice. The second one is the lifeloss, as mentioned before. I understand that it uses are broader and you can land it faster, but again IMHO those arguments only stick when playing mono-coloured.

@ beez: against Elves I would use Perish. The sheer speed of the deck makes Dystopia too slow and after the boardsweep you should have enough to keep them under your thumb. I know it effects all green creatures, so to me it can be a kind of shitty as well.

Dystopia is too slow in probably all situations that matter (unless you can cast it on turn one with a Ritual) A show and tell deck will be ready to go off at the time he must sacrifice his leyline. Hence my advice to just play pox effects (you don't want give your opponent time walks, right?)

Abyss or Ensnaring bridge. Whatever works with Show and tell. It isa different kind of answer for LoS.