I wholeheartedly agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger
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I wholeheartedly agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger
Hm,haven't benn here for some time,but this list is a good progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by GodzillA
I've dropped the Scrolls for Sensei's Divining Top,because then you can play 2 Confidants without taking lots of damage.And without Confidants,it just improves your cardquality.
That Zilla has put Perish into his board was another good idea,because it's a Sweeper against NQG and R/G SA's Troll Ascetics.
I like Zillas decklist a lot,but i would play Sensei's Divining Top 2 oder 3 times if you got free slots,because holding back one or two Confidants to prevent huge lifeloss sucks.
Just how much would the deck suffer were it to run a couple more fetchlands. Fetchlands can grab basics just as easily. So you lose on average one extra life per game. Big deal. The life gain from Descendant of Kiyomaro (or it's cousin Exalted Angel) easily make up for this and then some.
There're too many games already where you get screwed out of a color because of the heavy number of basics run. The deck puts enough pressure on your opponents mana that often, even if they have a wasteland, they would think twice about sacing it. And once again, fetchlands can grab basics just as easily.
Honestly, I think the price is well worth being able to more consistently get the mana that you need and being able to sub out mana intensive weak cards like cursed scroll that are very slow and limited in dealing with threats and not synergic with stuff like shade anyways for a strong card like Descendant of Kiyomaro.
A list like this perhaps..
6 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Tainted Field
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Descendant of Kiyomaro - Life gain, and an excellent attacker and blocker to boot.
Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
3 Gerrard's Verdict
Running more Fetchlands won't prevent the opponents to waste your scrublands and just remove the Descendant from the game with Swords.
And White is just a Splashcolor for this deck. And please,never SPLASH a card with has got the splashcolor 2 times or more in it's manacost,that's not good.
Ah,and btw. : this is still a kind of Suicide Deck,you want to play your disruption an fast as you can,so you won't have 7 cards or more in your hand very often...
edit: Like i said before,i would rather play StoP and Withered Wretch. Swords should be a main-reason to splash white and withered wretch is just good in the current meta.
Yes, but running less fetchlands won't prevent you from grabbing swamps, or prevent your opponent from wasting a scrubland either. If anything, it makes it more likely that you'll be able to recover and grab another scrubland thanks to the extra fetchlands you run.
Better they Swords the Descendant than the Confidant or the Hippie or something else. Swords is swords. If they have swords and you don't make them discard it, you will lose one of your creatures regardless. Running more creatures just makes recovering from Swords easier.
4x more Fetchlands and 2x Descendent (4 Shade/2 Descendent if you want) won't be the end of the deck. It's entirely feasable.
You don't need 7 cards for Descendent to be useful. you just need more cards than your opponent. Considering that the majority of decks are faster than this deck and empty their hand of cards by turn 2/3 anyways, and that those that don't get slaugtered by your Hippe, Hymn and Gerrard's Verdict, and considerign the synergy Descendent has with Confidant (along with Hippe and your other discard) on so many levels, it's a perfect natural fit in this deck.
Look, there's some very simple math involved here. If you want to consistently reach one of your splash colorm by turn 2 you need at least 10 sources for it (including fetches). To reach 2 of a splash color consistently by turn 2, you need at least 16. That means you'd need to add 6 fetches, not 4, in order to consistently produce WW. This isn't taking into account a single well-placed Wasteland, which can effectively keep you off WW until quite late into the game. This also omits the issue that 10 fetchlands combined with 4 Confidants is going to significantly weaken your matchup against... well, everything, really. Descendant is nice and all, but is it really worth making a full color commitment to add 2 cards to the deck? (Note: the last question was rhetorical.) (Secondary Note: the rhetorical answer is no.)
Can I just ask why this deck is considered a DTB? I have only seen it place at one big tournament.
Because it beats Thresh and got over hyped. I think theres a forum made for bitching about that stuff though. So lets bitch there.
Here are the qualifications for a DTB. Deadguy Ale meets all three qualities for our consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT
Don't agree with the qualifications? Click here or here
Diplomacy added by PR.
Sub-Optimal Deadguy Top-Eights at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft!
I played a Sub-Optimal (=partial budget) version of Godzilla's latest Deadguy list at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft, to a 4-0-2 record in the swiss, and a loss to Solidarity in the quarterfinals of the top 8. I'll try to write a mini-report later if I can figure out the appropriate thread, even though my note-taking is terrible. For now, I'll list the changes that weren't based on budget and availability concerns, and along the way mention a few issues I had with the deck:
-3 Bloodstained Mire
+3 Polluted Delta
Reason: The real reason is that almost all of the cards I played with belong to Lego_Army_Man, and he needed the Mires to loan out Goblins. However, ideally I would run two of each, to minimize interference from Pithing Needle, and because there are no maindeck Cursed Scrolls (card name redundancy requirements are lessened).
SB: -1 Pithing Needle
SB: -1 Sword to Plowshares
SB: +2 Cursed Scroll
Reason: Availability on the Needle, but I also wanted to fit the Cursed Scrolls that Zilla left out into my sideboard. They came in several times during the day, and really shone as a Dystopia enabler (ping that weenie, now you sacrifice that monster).
-1 Swamp
+1 Tomb of Urami
Ok, this is Issue Number One: In testing, even with an optimal list, I didn't like the slow pace at which this deck kills, because it gives the opponent the chance to get back in the game. Dark Confidant fixes that to some degree, but I added one Tomb of Urami to give the deck an added kick every once in a while. The damage never put me in danger, and it worked pretty nicely (or would have if I weren't such a scrub), even as a one-of:
- In my second-round draw, I should have won the game: The third game went to time, and I completely forgot that the Tomb could convert to a 5/5 flying killing machine.
- Later vs Solidarity, a first-turn Hyppie + an EOT third-turn Urami sealed the deal.
Issue Number Two: I had some mana problems with this build, specifically getting 2 Black - it could be matter of mulliganing more intelligently, but if that were true, I would have had a lot more mulligans - and that's not a good sign for a non-combo deck, I think. Maybe one less maindeck Wretch or Swords, in order to add one more Swamp?
Issue Number Three: The hardest match-ups I faced today were Solidarity and Solidarity. The first one my deck pulled it out for me, but the second time, Herbig's deck rolled over mine. Lego_Army_Man keeps telling me I had a good match-up, but I just can't see it - Solidarity forces me to mulligan aggressively at best. Before the tournament, I almost jammed Chalice of the Void into my sideboard for the Solidarity match-up and also considered rule Rule of Law, but, in the end, I gave up and hoped I wouldn't face it. So naturally, I faced it twice, including the only one in the top 8.
Summation:
Opinions on Tomb of Urami?
Extra land?
Solidarity strategy?
Thanks to Godzilla for the list, and Mad Props to Lego_Army_Man for the cards and the playtesting.
1: Lots of people play it, so you have to figure that you will face it when building a deck (Pikula, Thresh, and Goblins are prolly the top 3 most played decks).Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT
2: Everyone says it's not a good deck but it always has the chance to just win off the bat through discard + LD.
3: It top 8'd the Duel for Duals also which I would call a "Big Tournament" by legacy standards.
4: It has game against Goblins, Thresh, and Solidarity.
Could Pox be used in the side vs. Solidarity? I mean them losing 1/3 life/hand/lands seems like it would hurt, maybe it sucks just throwing it out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathro
This deck should not have problems with Solidarity, but it does. The main reason is that you can't actually kill your opponent in a reasonable amount of time. This deck is pretty slow by its very nature. Its has no swift clock and that is the part that really scares Solidarity. If you give them time to recover and abuse Flash of Insight you will lose. Maybe you could board a creature that would speed up the clock (I know that Pikula boarded Phyrexian Negator, but he wasn't happy with it). Or you could play Sui?
Eldariel reached the same conclusion when he was helping me test my Cloud deck against Pikula for CaNGD. I agree with him and yourself, a tomb should be in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathro
Yea, after losing for the billionth time due to the deck being unable to produce any more threats, I recall I wasn't quite as articulate. I rather strongly expressed that the deck has been meddling with other decks of the same gender, since it can't ever seem to spit out actual threats if opponent has any removal whatsoever.
But yea, I'd even go as far as to test 2 Tombs; the risk of drawing multiples might, or might not, be worth of the risk of actually having a decent clock more often. And of course, you can blow up Tomb #1 into a Demon to lay Tomb #2. I think that would do the deck's threatcount a world of good. Seeing that most of the losses I've gotten while playing the deck have been simply because opponent has matched my draws with removal (yes, even after Duresses, Verdicts and Hymns), I think the low threat count is the #1 hinderance for the deck.
The deck's low threatcount is largely a result of the large amount of space devoted to disruption, so I'd personally focus on finding cards like Tomb that act at some other cardslot in the deck (such as Tomb acts as a land), while still being a creature when need be (a strong argument for Cursed Scroll too; not only is it repeatable removal, but it also doubles as a threat, and even reach).
In the interest of threats that also act as disruption, I'm a huge fan of Mesmeric Fiend, and adding him might allow the inclusion of Cabal Therapy. I'm not sure if I'm taking the deck in the wrong direction, but it's worked for me in the past. Also, I've been tempted several times to take out the Nantuko Shades for some equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice so that you could play things like Mesmeric Fiend, and he and the Dark Confidants would become immediate threats. I haven't tested it though, so feel free to discount my ideas :)
well Lego, fiend is better in decks with cabal therapy and SoFI, as you mentioned. Heck, why not use green, BoP is good with therapy/SoFI as well... drop in some troll ascetics for easy beats... add in some moxen for the turn one confidant/turn two troll, maybe a jitte or two...
And we have Macey Rock for 1.5. Not that that's bad, it actually performs pretty well. It's just a different deck... that's all.
Were you the one playing the orders of the ebon hand, and knight of stromgald (sp?)? I honestly thought (after seeing duals and sinkholes in your deck) that they had been a meta choice to help with rifter and gro's STPs. I didn't agree with them, but I thought it was an interesting idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drathro
In any case, the Tomb is an interesting idea. It opens you up to a little more nonbasic hate, which, if people are smart, they will start running more of, and makes you put all of your metaphorical eggis in one basket. What am I talking about? If they deal with your 5/5, you have no recourse. All of your lands are destroyed, and this deck tends to have a relatively low hand size (thus dark confident is nuts), and you have to topdeck lands to get back into the game. Sure, you could only do this when your opponent has all of thier lands/hand destroyed, but seriously, that's rare at best. This deck just denies people the rosources they need to keep thier origional tempo.
I do think that this deck could use another threat or two, and a multi-purpous one like tomb would be nice. But, I must play devil's advocate and ask if it wouldn't be better to run another shade or something like that, instead of a vulnerable threat (echoint truth/wasteland...) that is also conditional.
Congrats on finishing in the money! I wish I had:cry:
Well, the thing is, you aren't technically playing it in your deck. That is, none of your cardcounts change, except you get an extra threat. If you can fit an extra Shade, you're losing something. When you add Tomb, you lose nothing. I agree, that an extra threat or two wouldn't hurt, but I would play Tomb regardless. Anyone with half the wit will be trying to manascrew you by going after your white sources anyways, nobody will bother with Tomb, except if you're already colour screwed, so I think the drawbacks are minimal, and you won't be using the Tomb for a creature, except if you're short on threats and would lose anyways, or if you need a faster clock to win, or if you know it's safe through your discard. I'd consider Tomb almost riskfree, and certainly a worthy addition. To make the deck consistent, I'd also try to add that 4th Shade, and probably a third Scroll somehow. I dunno, it's hard to cut anything when the disruption package hits so many things and takes so much room, weakening any part of it would weaken the strategy as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Then what's the point? You are adding, essentially, a Swamp that cannot be Fetched, can be Wasted, and pings you every time you tap it for mana for the off chance that you can throw away all of your lands for an easily removable token? This seems rather risky.
They've used up their removal when you turn it into a creature, you were going to lose the game anyways, or they have none and you need a faster clock (most combo). You've got plenty of Swamps to fetch, as I said, you don't mind it being wasted since that means they saved a Scrubland and the damage is likely to matter more rarely than the ability to turn it into a Demon-token. Those sitiuations will come up more often than the damage will matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel
I know this was already discussed, but I would like to raise the subject once more and perhaps go a little more in depth with the situation. I play Dead Guy Ale and it works very nicely for me. My only two matchups that I am truely concerned with are weenie and straight up burn... sadly, this deck absolutely gets on it's knees for burn, and weenie just runs the deck over. When those two decks combines (Boros Deck Wins), BW Dead Guy just gets ripped into pieces. They burn our pathetic little creatures and swing FTW with random 2 power creatures. You really need to deny them of red and get lucky picks of hyms to win this matchup without any tech against it. If it is just mono white weenie, then ebon hand works just fine, but when they splash red, problems start to surface. I am beginning to test 2 mainboard descendent of the kiyomaros in place of Gerard's verdict... yes I know, the card costs the dreaded double white, but if you think about it, it really isnt terrible for what you get with the card. If you get it's ability going, good luck boros. I will post with results to this testing, but I think it might be something to fight back at red/white agro burn decks. Any suggestions???
Absolute Law? Hell, it even doubles as Goblins hate, protects your threats, and weakens theirs. It turns Burn into a straight up race, which isn't all that difficult if you're attacking their hand in the early game and they can't touch your threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
I like the idea of absolute law. You could just take out the sinkholes for them and be no lighter on threats.
Isn't Auriok Champion better than descendent of whatever? Champion can, hypothetically, hit play on turn two, and start gaining you life right off the bat. You also lose the possiblity of Helix+Bolt taking her out, which you have with the descendent.
That's just my guesswork though, I haven't tested either of them so I wouldn't know.
Easily removable mine arse. As a 5/5, lightning bolt doesn't touch it. Gobblins probably can't incinerate it and silly things like hardcasted Slice and Dice from Rifter won't even kill it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel
Yes, STP hits it and Solidarity can cunning wish for a bounce spell, but Eldariel is right when he mentions that through discard-use their answers will deplete, in which case the uncounterable 5/5 flyer can finish things quite quickly. I mean, if you activate at their EoT, that's a 5/5 w/ haste. That gives them 4- turns to find an answer.
Besides all that, this deck needs what, 3 lands to operate? If you've got the mana to pay for tomb, you've probably got more where that came from, in which case you can just hold back a land.
If you use it correctly, Tomb will just randomly win you games, while losing you none that you wouldn't have lost anyway.
Oh my stars... I had never heard of absolute law up until then, ( ripping up descendants). Thank you godzilla for introducing me to this card. It is infintely times better than descendant, and it does double as goblin hate as well. and they only sell for a buck.. sweet!!:smile:
I just entered a vaguely fact-oriented tournament report, including the correct list I played to a top 8 spot, here (single post view). If I don't answer a question here, then maybe I answered it there.
Exactly! The creature count is one of two reasons why I audibled into Godzilla's list a few days before the event, despite having been playtesting Pikula Deadguy for several weeks. The other reason was the substitution of Swords for Scrolls in the main, as they are ready to deal with threats turn one. (Although I made room for the Scrolls in the side.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
However, even after a few day's testing of the Zilla Deadguy list, I still found the finishing strength lacking - thus the Tomb of Urami went in. Tomb of Urami definitely would have won me the game I drew, if I wasn't so stressed at going to time again and had actually playtested with it. It also gave me a fast clock when I had to finish my round five Solidarity opponent. I will definitely test the list with two in the main, in place of Swamps.
I hear you, but in practice things went a little differently. I found that Tomb of Urami has three modes:Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
* Good Mode: Especially if you get Dark Confidant to stay in play at all, you will usually end up with extra lands in your hand, eliminating the need to topdeck lands. Thus, you have the option to sacrifice your manabase for a big threat. Also, if they can't remove Confidant, how will they remove Urami?
* Pain Mode: You don't have extra lands. You need more mana. Tomb is essentially a non-basic pseudo-Swamp with pain attached. I discuss the costs of that pain in the next paragraph.
* Desperation Mode: You are going to lose if you don't get a threat out now. Who cares if you need to topdeck lands? Take the chance that they can kill your 5/5, because it's the only shot you've got.
At the Dual Land Draft, the damage from Tomb of Urami never actully made a difference, but, for example, I avoided tapping it to activate Wretch's ability at end of turn unless I absolutely had to. I suppose sometimes it will make a difference, but we'll have to see how often the Tomb pain kills us, as compared to how often Urami wins the game for us. For me that was no game losses to (at least) two games where it made (or would have made) for a huge win.
Regarding Absolute Law - Don't forget that it makes Rifter a lot less potent, too!
Sorry I missed this thread for so long. So I'll just throw out some thoughts on what I've seen up to this point.
@ Jitte: Definitely keep it away from this deck. Could make a hippy pretty beasty but not worth it nonetheless.
@ Splashing red: Seems like a good idea but I just think white offers better control (StP / Absolute Law) and Vindicate can handle the removal role pretty well. It seems worth the extra mana over Lightning Bolt but the fact that it takes out anything makes it worth it to me, especially since you've got plenty of first and second turn disruptors to keep them from even dropping anything until you have the extra mana for it.
@ Gerrard's Verdict: I'm glad to find a deck that uses this awesome card. Sims already explained its leetness.
@ Withered Wretch: Seems handy enough to keep a spot, especially in a Gro/Tog/Reanimator-heavy meta.
@ Pithing Needle: I have to go with Disenchant. Can cast as instant, and doesn't sit around waiting to be destroyed. Disenchant just seems better here.
@ 4th Shade: Yes.
@ Weenies matchup: I would think the Scrolls and Blasts would help there, or even pumping a Shade as a blocker. I don't have any advice there, I'm confounded.
@ Burn Matchup: Sphere of Law seems like too much of a mana-stretch and CoP:Red kinda wastes away your mana quickly as well when you're trying to cast your own threats. But then again, turn 2 Dark Rit to Sphere of Law could save the day.
Overall, like the deck. When I get some spare cash I'll see if I can nab a build to toy around with.
Well... i won a small tournament today with this list:
7 Swamp, 4 Scrubland, 8 Fetchlands, 4 Wasteland, 4 Rituals
4 Confidant, 4 Specter, 4 Wretch, 3 Shade
4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Vindicate
2 Scrolls
SB: 4 Plague, 3 Darkblast, 3 StoP, 2 Needle, 3 Perish
Just for the record: I played 2-0 vs. VG, 2-0 vs. Zompy, 2-1 vs. subpar Burn, 0-2 vs. 4cNQG, 2-0 vs. 2Land.
I have tested various lists on MWS for some time and was often disappointed with my playskill, but on the tournament all of a sudden i was able to decide corectly about my turn 2 plays...
My thoughs about the choices are:
- I am quite happy with my base. During tests i was very annoyed by the decks lack of consisitent BB on turn 2 on the one hand and its tendency for flooding on the other. So far playing more fetchlands was fine for me.
I do not like any pseudo-dual solution at all.- I enjoy the Scrolls very much and consider them very valuable. I see the contradiction with Shade as it was pointed out, but i would consider the Shades being guilty for that. I very much tend to go for only 2 Shades, cause i repeatedly expierience them as useless in situation where the decks fattie should become a control tool and the Shades failed to accomplish that.
I consider 4 Withered Wretch an auto-inclusion due to the meta shift post Philly (note that we have a slighly higher % of NQG and a slighter lower % of VG in Germany in addition).- Obviously my list is just horrible against Burn. I haven't decided about my SB choice for Burn yet (we did't expect Burn to be present at that event at all). I tend to go for Ministration... as a weak answer to any kind of red damage... and because i was familiar to using them in some other decks.
- My testing results against NQGw are bad despite the inclusion of Perish. My results about NQGr are just pure horror. I have severe doubt that boarding Perish (+ some Plowshares etc.) is the final and most correct way to handle that MU.
In addition to not being successful, that plan just does not feel right imo... but i have no alternative to present yet (and i doubt Lynx is a satisfying one).
I know most of this is nothing new. But i wanted at least show that i am in for that stuff now...
...updates (with more relevant ideas (at least i hope so)) will follow.
I hope i did not bore you.
In my testing, Cursed Scroll has been the all-star in attrition wars, since opponents simply can't often take care of it. I'd definately go to 3, even at the cost of something like a Sinkhole, since Scroll is that one card which really allows winning against Gobbos pre-board. Have you considered the Tombs, btw? Do you recall a sitiuation from the tourney, where having a Tomb instead of a Swamp would've won you the game? On another note, Tomb is again a fine card against Gobbos, as they often have serious trouble in dealing with creatures larger than their deck.
Btw, that's a lot of creature hate on the SB in 4 Plagues, 3 StPs AND 3 Perishes. Since the deck already goes after the graveyard pretty strongly with Wretches, how about something like Leyline of the Void, Planar Void or such against Gro? When their deck suddenly constitutes of 1/1s, it's much less scary and with some SB-cards, you'd have 7 cards to make that happen post-SB. Another option would of course be to go after their landbase. They aren't casting that Mystic Enforcer if they control at most 1 land throughout the game. Then again, these appear to be the wrong colours for good non-basic hate...
Hello everybody. Even though I just joined The Source, I have been watching over a few particuler threads for awhile, this one specifically. I've looked at your arguments for and against certain cards, and based on your opinions, along with my own general expirences from playtesting, i have devised this list:
// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
9 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
// Spells
2 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Withered Wretch
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Darkblast
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Seal of Cleansing
My sideboard is still sketchy, and I don't have access to needles for it. But the MD seems quite solid. I really like the STP's as they are always good to have against goblins, can be relevant in the Threshold matchups, and they are nice agianst those other random aggro decks like Angel Stompy and Green Stompy. Like Godzilla said, I haven't noticed that much of a difference after switching to 22 lands; the deck still runs about as good as normal, and it allows me to use 3 StP's, which is invaluable.
The reason I choose to run STP over Verdict is because, first of all, teh deck already has 12 MD disruption spells, all of which can be played within turns 1-2. Secondly, people are talking about how they Gerrards Verdict themselves to gain life. That might be nice, but I think it's not worth the -3 card advantage to gain 6 life. STP gets rid of prominent threats in play, such as a goblin, quirion dryad, or even stuff in the mirror. However, if you are really in a position where you ened life, you can STP your own bob, get rid of him and gain 2 life to boot.
But I am currently testing STP at the moment. I'm not 100% sure that I want to keep it MD.
Verdicting yourself against burn is worth it. You lose 2 lands you wouldn't have needed anyways, and the Verdict to retroactively undo their last 2 spells. Very strong especially if they're topdecking. That's not the main purpose of the card, but there are sitiuations where that becomes useful too, so it's good to keep in mind.
Also, as Goblins seem to be in decline, maindeck Plagues are almost universally removed. You don't necessarily need a Plague to win game 1 against Goblins anyways and it isn't very strong against anything else. On the other hand, maindeck Withered Wretch is almost universally played and as a 4-of no less. Threshold is The deck to beat presently, and even against decks that don't care about graveyard, it's still a solid 2/2 bear for 2, something the deck lacks. Even Pikula mentioned in his tournament report that he often sided in Withered Wretches just to increase his threat count.
Also, one card that I'd at least consider worth including is Tomb of Urami. I'd suggest 2 more fetches and removing Tainted Field for more consistent white mana, if you add it (since Tainted Field can't produce coloured mana with Tomb in play). Tomb of Urami is very potent in giving you a fast clock, some way to use your excess lands and an additional threat if you play against a removal-heavy opponent and are topdecking crap. Also, a third Scroll is definately worth considering as it's immune to creature removal and a damn good way to bring opponent to 0 while also being a gamewinner against Goblins and the like.
Btw, the biggest thing going on for StP in this deck is, it kills Mystic Enforcer, an otherwise-lethal Gro creature (well, I guess you could remove their grave and double-scroll/Plague-scroll it, but yea...). But yea, if you want MD StP, I'd suggest upping the fetch-count as you'll need that white mana early every game you draw it. Of course StP also does a host of other relevant functions, killing Lackeys, Warchiefs, removing Eternal Dragons for good, etc.
Is there any place for the new Dissension tutor in this deck, or is it too slow and restrictive?
I feel it is way too restrictive. Esspecially with Confidant, you will not have a empty hand too often. I think the only way to make good use of the new tutor is in either a superfast black (splashing) aggro deck, or in combination with with LED.
In almost every other situation, you'd rather have an other buisinesscard.
PS: On the other hand, I once trade away all my Onslaught fetch because I felt the Mirage onces were a lot better, so don't pay too much attention to my opinions :)
I feel it might have some benefits. Finding a second Confidant or Vindicate or Engineered Plague could be pretty hot. The ability to find a copy of a card in your hand isn't entirely worthless after all. 2 Plagues are better than 1.
I am 100% for the addition of a tutor in this deck.
I would love nothing more for you to diddle with yourself for a turn rather than blow up a land, rip cards out of my hand, or drop a scary win condition.
That's true, but I dislike the fact you can't search for a Vindicate or Plague when you need one (and don't have on in your hand). I think I'd rather play something like Rhystic tutor than I'd play the new one. Esspecially in Deadguy's Ale where your opponent doesn't get too much last most of the time.
I think the best thing is to play just a lot of answers and threats, instead of a conditional tutor.
Stop the Sarcasm. That just creates confusion : )
Tutors are bad in this deck, really bad. And the 2-Mana slot is...umm...full.
It is a little slow, and a bit conditional, but I can see some uses in my head:
1) It is restrictive, but is emptying your hand that difficult? I know it has mediocre synergy with Confidant, but do you have trouble winning games where a Confidant sticks?
2)Turn 1: Duress
Turn 2: Ritual, Hymn, Tutor
Turn 3: Hymn
3)Is fetching a second Vindicate ever a bad thing?
4)Can go get 1 of win conditions like Tomb of Urami.
I'm not completely sold on it being in the deck, but I think it deserves some testing.
2) Yes. With Ritual plus Hymn plus Random-spell plus lands every hand is good. Nevertheless would Hymn/Sinkhole Hymn/Confidant be much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
3) Yes. It is bad. If you pay 2BBW to destroy target permanent it is not the same as paying 1BW.
I can see many potential in the card, too. But not in this deck. Deadguys gameplan is really dependend on how it spends the first 2-3 turns and can't afford to play slow cards that won't affect your opponents play immediately. Furthermore the deck is "full", so there is no room for a tutor + 1-off engine.
I don't know if I agree. Often times the deck is at its best when it is able to focus a great deal of one disruption type in the early game, as opposed to one or two pieces of several. For example, a turn 2 Sinkhole followed by a turn 3 Hymn is very strong, but is often not as powerful as a Sinkhole followed by yet another Sinkhole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Often times, the ability to focus on either land or hand hate specifically will add consistency to the deck's gameplan, which is in fact exactly what it needs. Consider how often you think to yourself "if I just had one more Sinkhole or Wasteland, he'd be totally screwed", or the same of Hymn or Duress or Vindicate. Tutor can provide this kind of consistency, although there's an obvious tempo loss. On the plus side, it also lets you tutor up one of your two Scrolls when your hand is empty, which seems like a bonus.
I'm not certain it will be a good addition, but I definitely think it should be tested before being dismissed outright.
Tutoring up a Wasteland allows for use on the very same turn. Turn 2 Sinkhole followed by turn 3 Infernal-Wasteland and turn 4 Wasteland on Threshold for example seems pretty brutal. A deck running 17 lands doesn't like losing 3 of them. I say it's worth testing, because who hasn't hoped to draw that second Engineered Plague against Goblins?