[Deck] Salvager Game (Golden Grahams)

Last weekend I went to a tournament and this are my conclusions on the deck:

1) Infest need to be in the maindeck at least 3 times. You need it to win against goblins (Pernicious deed is too slow, and is handy against meddling mage, angelstompy)

2) I was not impressed with the transformational sb for 2 darksteel colossus.

3) high tide and landstill seem to be bad matchups.

My sb for the event was:
3 hymn to tourach
3 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 darksteel colossus
1 uktabi orangutan
1 indrik stomphowler
1 phyrexian tower
1 gamekeeper
1 xantid swarm
1 orzhov guildmage

4) i didn't use orzhov a single time

5) i didn't play auriok on the sb cause i rarely wish for it and cause i wanted to save a slot.

Colossus plan is obsolete. If you really want the creature switch you should only be doing it against decks packing Swords to Plowshares, and possibly Crypt as well. You should be doing this with Simic Sky Swallower.

You need the wish target keeper and salvager. Dont be retarded.

Orzhov is needed as a wishable win condition. Orzhov = life loss it gets around worship effects.

Infest is just fine main. I played it for a while.

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3) high tide and landstill seem to be bad matchups.

My sb for the event was:
3 hymn to tourach
3 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 darksteel colossus
1 uktabi orangutan
1 indrik stomphowler
1 phyrexian tower
1 gamekeeper
1 xantid swarm
1 orzhov guildmage

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High Tide usually runs me about 40-60 Game 1, but this is in respects to intelligant Solidarity players. I can normally run about 55-45 otherwise.

Keys to this match-up is usually stopping them from drawing then hitting high tide. (ie. I normally call Meditate with a blind Therapy turn 1-2 then IF I have hit him for other discard earlier I would call High Tide IF I haven't seen alot of draw on thier side.)

Landstill on the other hand should be positive, but I have seen things to otherwise go against this. Early Wasteland/Crucible of Worlds hands are sometimes savage against my build but it is definatly not the end of the world. The deck normally should go off turn 3-4 or at least try to if you can. If they run a more traditional U/W build then I would suggest switching over the Salvagers to Simic Sky Swallowers, since they will most likely be taking out the Wraths for Crypts. For the more recent U/G/w/b builds I would suggest taking out 1 Salvager and any Innocent Bloods for the Hymns in your board. Mind everyone I bring in Teferi's Response post-board and use the disruption against them.

I think the board is ok, with the exceptions noted above, but I would have to question a couple cards and also what your current MD looks like too.

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Orzhov is needed as a wishable win condition. Orzhov = life loss it gets around worship effects.

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QFT, I normally don't wish for him either baptist, but he is a ness. evil especially with the fact that there are so many random deck out there that makes it impossible to win unless you don't target and don't deal damage.

My MD is the 'standard list' but with 3 innocent blood and 3 infest.

I changed my sb, cause colossus didn't a good job last time:

3 tsunami (landstill and high tide: hymn was not good enough)
3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 uktabi orangutan
1 indrik stomphowler
1 phyrexian tower
1 gamekeeper
1 auriok salvager
1 xantid swarm
1 orzhov guildmage

I'll continue to test it further and see if i can play around the hate cards pithing needle and tormod's crypt.

Indrik Stomphowler is way to expensive. When in the world have you actually wished for him? If your playing the 'standard' list with 19 lands I dont see him being cast. Ever. If you really need another monkey, add another monkey. But Ive only ever needed one.

If High Tide and Landstill are a problem for you then sideboard Xantid Swarm instead. He puts pressure on Solidarity so they need to go off in response to him instead of your comboing, otherwise you get an undisrupted combo finish.

Hes obviously good against Landstill's counter's as well. Give him a go. Hes tried and true.

Just to recap for all the noobs picking up the deck. Alot of people dont know this but if someone activates Crypt in response to Gamekeepers trigger you wont get a creature. Part of the cost is to rfg the keeper, but if hes not there you dont get your dude. This is mostly in regards to the Sky Swallower plan. You still need to smash the Crypt before you go for your fatty.

Oh and against Solidarity, when playing a first blind Cabal Therapy you name FORCE OF WILL. Your combo is important and faster than Solidarity's, get it off! Always just show the Therapy to the opponent before naming a card, wait to see if they Force it. Alot of good players will still hold their FoW knowing they lose 1-2 cards either way, hoping you'll guess wrong. Naming Meditate is a horrible idea because it only takes a Brainstorm to hide away all the important blue cards.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Oh and against Solidarity, when playing a first blind Cabal Therapy you name FORCE OF WILL. Your combo is important and faster than Solidarity's, get it off! Always just show the Therapy to the opponent before naming a card, wait to see if they Force it. Alot of good players will still hold their FoW knowing they lose 1-2 cards either way, hoping you'll guess wrong. Naming Meditate is a horrible idea because it only takes a Brainstorm to hide away all the important blue cards.

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This is just wrong for 1 very big reason. Turn 1-2 Cabal Therapy will never be forced that's true, but you don't have enough discard w/ 4 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy to just go Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Discard and Turn 3 Discard. This means you can not pound card advantage out of their hand. You have to make choices with what is more vital for them. Meditate allows them to combo off, not Force of Will. Solidarity going Force of Will on for example one of my Tutors or Gamekeeper is huge card advantage for me since they have to get rid of another card just to stop what I'm doing. Your role in this match-up should stay COMBO not Control. If you force your opponent into the control role he is in a bad position.

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Originally Posted by Watcher487

This is just wrong for 1 very big reason. Turn 1-2 Cabal Therapy will never be forced that's true, but you don't have enough discard w/ 4 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy to just go Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Discard and Turn 3 Discard. This means you can not pound card advantage out of their hand. You have to make choices with what is more vital for them. Meditate allows them to combo off, not Force of Will. Solidarity going Force of Will on for example one of my Tutors or Gamekeeper is huge card advantage for me since they have to get rid of another card just to stop what I'm doing. Your role in this match-up should stay COMBO not Control. If you force your opponent into the control role he is in a bad position.

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Thats why you need to combo out faster. If your opponent just FoW'ed your Gamekeeper you lost the game. Theres no way you could ever come back from tapping out to cast keeper. Meditate is important but Impulse and card draw find more Meditate's. Brainstorm hides the key cards on top of the library till your discard resolves. Ive seen Solidarity win many times without the draw 4, they might not have it in hand since they usually only run 3 maindeck anyways. Solidarity isnt gonna counter your shitty tutor unless its with Remand and they need to draw their next land.

FoW is the enemy. Duress is a legacy staple thanks to its exsistence. Therapy only beats it up more. FoW is your enemy. Take it out and combo off.

It should be noted that any good Solidarity player should probably never lose this matchup. A well timed Brainfreeze will mill you to death if you played spellbombs and LED's a bajillion times. Its not unwinable, but its not worth discussing endlessly either.

Could Lotus Bloom add anything to this deck? Salavger can put it into play from the grave. If you suspend it turn 1, it gives an explosive turn 4 in which you can go off. LED is probraly better, but Lotus Bloom can act as LED 5-6 ? The only reason it might be better than LED is that it can actually make mana without discarding you hand. This will help against LD, screw and so on.

Ideas?

Salvager doesn't put the artifact into play, it puts it into your hand. So no combo with Salvager.

I took this deck to the Belgian Legacy Championship last Sunday and this is what happened:
Belgian Legacy Championship (66 people)

Salvager Game

4 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
3 swamp
2 snow-covered swamp
1 forest
1 snow-covered forest
1 plains

3 gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers

4 dark ritual
3 tainted pact

3 infernal tutor
3 living wish
3 innocent blood
4 cabal therapy
4 duress

4 lion’s eye diamond
2 pyrite spellbomb
1 chromatic star
1 chromatic sphere
2 lotus petal

2 pernicious deed

SB
1 pernicious deed
1 infest
2 hideous laughter
3 sylvan library
3 krosan grip
1 auriok salvagers
1 gamekeeper
1 phyrexian tower
1 harmonic sliver
1 bone shredder

I usually play no infest in my sideboard, because there are almost no goblins in my meta, but I figured out there might be some at a larger event. Turned out I was right about that, with goblins being all over the place, unfortunately I was unable to find other infests and had to play with hideous laughter.

Round 1 UWg – fish
This guy plays a deck that resembles threshold, but with creatures like watchwolf and Jotun Grunt. I know thresh is a bad match up, so I’m in for a tough game. I am glad to win game 1, where he doesn’t see any counters and I can duress his only swords. I side in pernicious deed and krosan grip for innocent blood and a living wish, but I have no chance of winning another game, as I get killed by a watchwolf with jitte, backed up by too many swords and counterspells.

0-1
Round 2 UG-Madness
Game 1, I’m on the draw and see a sick first turn kill hand, unfortunately without any land. I don’t know what he’s playing so I keep and hope it’s nothing with force of will in it., unfortunately it is and I lose the game after losing my hand and getting 6 points of manaburn on turn one. I board in my krosan grips and get ready for game 2. He apparently did not recognize my deck and/or read his cards well, as he plays a pithing needle on my lotus petal (my only non-land permanent). I find some discard, and the only pressure he can apply is an aquamoebe where he keeps on discarding his excess land too, when I get down to 3 life, I finally find a gamekeeper, krosan grip his arcane laboratory and flashback therapy for the win. Game three is almost the same, but I find a gamekeeper a lot earlier and so I don’t have to worry about my life total.

1-1

Round 3 Goblin Sligh.
I go first, land go. He plays mountain, fanatic. On my turn, I play land, double lion’s eye diamond, living wish, sac led for sextuple white, discarding pyrite spellbomb, wish for salvagers and win the game. I am convinced he plays goblins and side out my duress and 2 living wish, for infest and krosan grip. The loss of duress turns out to be a big mistake when he fireblasts my auriok salvagers next time I try to go off, and beats face with his goblins. Game three is very close, as I can deed away his goblins, he blasts my salvagers, but I get another. He has one card in hand, one mountain (untapped) and a fanatic on the board. I have almost no library left thanks to gamekeeper activations, and I play my last win condition (living wish got milled). But luck was not with me that game, as the card he topdecked was lightning bolt, and I lose that one. After all I should have boarded my duress back in after the second game, to take out his burn.

1-2 Not that impressive, I hoped for a better record.

Round 4, Sligh
He beats some face, I drop a gamekeeper, he burns a little more, I make sure he has no nasty burn for salvagers and win. Game 2 was the same, except that he tried to help me take out his nasty burn, when he fireblasts ME on turn three. That was the most friendly fireblast I ever took.

2-2 Back in the running?

Round 5 Pox
I can easily win game 1, because the only thing he sees is a duress and two nether spirits. Their beatings end when I drop a gamekeeper, and I win from there. I side in krosan grip and sylvan library (card drawing enchantments > monoblack discard). He begins strong with dark ritual into duress and hymn to tourach, but unfortunately for him he has no more disruption and I get a gamekeeper to stop his spirit and chimeric idol and sylvan library gets me my sac outlets for gamekeeper and I win the game with one card in my library, luckily sylvan library is optional (my first salvagers got hymned).

3-2

Round 6 Goblins
Game one: the typical goblins game, get some beatings, drop gamekeeper, win from there. Game two: another typical goblins game, he shuts down my mana with two ports, and he goes broken for more than thirty damage thanks to double warchief, pyromancer and a few piledrivers.
Game three goes easier, I discard a little, drop deed and gamekeeper, and wait until I find duress for his pyrokinesis, in the meanwhile he drops pyrostatic pillar in front of my deed, I just blow my deed and win, as he had no meaningful cards in hand anymore.

4-2 this might actually get me somewhere

Round 7 GWB control?
This guy plays a deck I never saw before with false prophet, recurring nightmare and loxodon hierarch, it looked a solid metagame choice as the deck probably owns goblins, unfortunately it was no match for my deck and I go 2-0 easily.

5-2. I end up 11th and take 5 packs home, quite satisfied with my finish.

Some notes:
Krosan grip is definitely the best anti-hate card that can be used, it never let me down.

Infest doesn’t seem very necessary, I never saw one, but I could handle goblins really easy, and when I lost no infest could have saved me.

Lotus petal is great, it helps against color screw and accelerates your gamekeepers/salvagers.

Thanks for the report, Despo. I must say that Pernicious Deed is a peculiar card to have in that deck. When I used to play against that deck a lot, it was the card that I counted on most to defeat it!

Could you list your lands for us as well?

Oh, and btw, what was the top 8?

top 8 was four goblin decks, landstill, iggy pop, deadguy and wub-fish. Finals were between two goblin decks, but I don't know the rest of t8 standings.

Pernicious deed is awesome in this deck: it takes care of multiple needles/chalices/sphere of resistance/meddling mage, while clearing the board at the same time.

I've found it great having volrath's stronghold in this deck. One main, one boarded for wish. If I'm playing against a deck with counters, I'll often throw a wish out when I think it can't be countered. If it resolves, I have stronghold to try and resolve a gamekeeper EVERY turn. If they counter it, I just baiting one (and hopefully the only) counter out of their hand.

It also helps you dodge a tiny bit of grave hate if you can pull your salvagers out of your grave before a tormod's crypt or something. Not ideal, but it's necessary sometimes.

While I dont agree with some of the card choices, im very happy to see someone try new things with this deck. Not just the standard cut-and-paste of a year and a half old decklist.

I do like the Harmonic Sliver sideboard. I replaced sexmonkeys in my board with that a while ago, but havent realy tested it yet. Hows it working out for you? Easy enough to have the white for its casting cost without using petals? (cards i dont agree with, atleast for this deck)

How many of the goblin decks did you see splashing white? In my limited meta right now, i just have RW Goblins, so i use Massacre. Most of the other agro decks that pop up in my meta also splash white, so my Massacre's should end up fine atleast for me.

Ive been thinking about running a few Krosan Grips in board too. Only have one right now though, and their in high demand. So im still running Ray of Revalation (I realy hate top deck humility more then anything else).

@Solpugid: Ive been running Volrath's Stronghold too, but just in board. Dont think it needs to be main. Its very nice to have accessable. I was running it instead of City in Board, often wishing it just as my 3rd/4th land drop. But now im running both cause not haveing white when you need it sucks.

Finding white for harmonic sliver is never hard, thanks to 7 fetchland and chromatic star/sphere. It is definitely better than sex monkeys and it opens up a place in your sideboard (monk realist or something along those lines).

About the lotus petals: I think they are really good in this deck: they fix your mana and accelerate your game, I have won a lot games thanks to the petals, you should really give them a try. Turn one gamekeeper or turn two pernicious deed are really strong plays with this deck and you can sac it for red to have your spellbomb kill a meddling mage/warchief/piledriver/... if you really need to. I was always happy to have them.

And krosan grip is really better than anything else to fight hate: needle, crypt and chalice or artifacts, humility and arcane laboratory are enchantments. Just slaughter them with the power of the almighty krosan grip MUHAHAHA :wink:
but i think even naturalize would be better than ray of revelation, unless nobody in your meta has ever heard of needle or crypt.

I saw a little more green splashed goblins than white splashes, but there are almost none in my meta, I think I might cut the infest from my board, but if you see a lot of RW, massacre seems really good. Lotus petal really shines here, giving you the speed you need to catch up on them. (petals aren't affected by port or wasteland).

Hey

First - Sorry for my poor English its not so often that I write in English.

My coal was to make it a more stabile and allround creature-oriented build with cards against combo and control in sideboard.

Dark ritual I discarded for Utopia sprawl which makes the deck slower but more mana stabile and it have to be that when running 4 colours. The Utopia spawl makes the combo a turn slower than dark ritual but a turn faster than none - say a more stabile turn 4 kill. The deck is not hurt so much by counterspells.

The deck want to make the combo through gamekeeper almost every time and make use of the cabal therapy / gamekeeper plan a few times before going of. That way the deck is not hurt by direct sorcery removal. Instants like StP and bouncespells can be handled with Phyrexian Tower in respond by sac. Gamekeeper.

The deck is a slower and more creature oriented build with 4 pyroclasm main. Pyroclasm is a good card vs. a lot of creature decks: goblins, B/W and mono black with hippies and confidants a so on, sometimes also Tresshold with medling mages and so on. Pyroclasm takes the gamekeeper to grave as well - so it is a combo pact as well.

To protect the combo some cards is needed and here I think deed and Ancient Grudge will do good.

Against combo and control the 4 pyroclasm charges to Hymn.

It is possible to cut down the number of pyroclasm and add in infernal tutors for a more flexible gameplan but that Is depending on metagame.

What do people thing about it?

Salvager pyrogame

Maindeck
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Living Wish
4 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
4 pyroclasm
4 Utopia sprawl
(38)

Lands:
4 Wooded foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Forest
4 swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
(22)

Sideboard
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Wirewood Herald
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Ancient grudge
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Hymn to Tourach

Aside from Deed hitting your Utopia Sprawl it seems like a cool change. You'd need to make sure and sprawl a basic so not to lose it to wasteland. Have you thought to change any more of the Chromatic Sphere slots with more Spellbombs, they become usefull when playing red mana.

I would also go 3 Keeper, 2 Salvager as thats the combination that seems to work best.

I don't think it is right to take away dark ritual in favor of utopia sprawl, because you lose your explosiveness and if you can't find a basic forest, you open yourself up to losing to a single wasteland. Port also becomes a lot more devastating, since they can lock up two mana for the price of one. And I didn't even mention sinkhole or vindicate. Mana is a valuable resource, especially in this format where you need the speed to compete with goblins and iggy pop.


Splashing red for pyroclasm and spellbomb seems alright, but you will need four spellbombs to make sure you can actually do something with it.
I don't know if pyroclasm is better than infest, especially in the match up where you need it the most (goblins who play wasteland + port). Remember you can always play infest of dark ritual...

I also agree with the 3 gamekeeper - 2 salvager plan, you don't want to find another gamekeeper when you have all your pieces and it makes sure you can run another gamekeeper as a wish target.

I don't know about phyrexian tower mainboard, as a one-of you probably don't see it often and it's really bad before you have gamekeeper, especially when playing four colors.

When I ran this deck, my sideboard included 7 Living Wish targets, 4 Pernicious Deed, and 4 Orim's Chant. Chant not only let me draw out counters or combo out through Blue-heavy decks, it also gave me a silver bullet against other combo decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

When I ran this deck, my sideboard included 7 Living Wish targets, 4 Pernicious Deed, and 4 Orim's Chant. Chant not only let me draw out counters or combo out through Blue-heavy decks, it also gave me a silver bullet against other combo decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop.

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Do you feel that more disruption against Solidarity or Iggy Pop is needed? I have never felt that the eight discard spells were not enough.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

When I ran this deck, my sideboard included 7 Living Wish targets, 4 Pernicious Deed, and 4 Orim's Chant. Chant not only let me draw out counters or combo out through Blue-heavy decks, it also gave me a silver bullet against other combo decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop.

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Did you never feel the need to run krosan grips in your sideboard? they deal with all hate (except for meddling mage) and gives you a lot more insurance to make sure you can combo out. Orim's chant does give you more options against other combo decks, but with 8 discard spells and a potential beatdown-plan (not a great plan, but still...) you should be able to take away most matches.

About the transormantl sideboard plan:

Some people says that SSS is better then DSC because of the Stp. But why they would sword your DSC not your gamkeeper?
Do i missing something?

Because most of the times you will be able to sacrifice your gamekeeper immediately for Cabal Therapy. Your opponent won't get priority anymore to swords to keeper.

@Snowman: I have found that "Eight is Enough" against IGG-y. They are only one turn faster, and if you should be able to slow them down. Always discard their accelleration. It doesn't matter that they only need to draw one more to win if you win the next turn. I run a Xantid to Wish for in addition against Tide. They are a half turn slower, so discard their counters if you have a fast hand, and their Tides if you have a slow one.

@despo: Grip is a personal choice. I never liked it due to it's mana cost, and the fact that you need to run several to have a chance to draw one, unlike the creatures. The deck's creator, however, swears by them. I guess if you run into a control deck with hateful permanents, it is the best option.

@Cthulhu: Running the "Oath" plan in the SB is a crutch that has been found unneeded. Mainly because if you draw the SSS, you have no way to return it to the library. Wish then becomes your only win condition. With disruption and Deeds from the board, you should be able to either combo off, or just beat down with the creatures you already run.

@Alex: While you are correct, you still need to try and rid them of StP. They do get priority after the GK triggers, but before you name for Cabal, so they can easily Plow the creature your Gamekeeper gets. Unless it is a SSS. Which I don't think is the best plan.

Appearantly theres a new card coming out of the new set:

Roof of Evil* B
Instant
Split Second
Choose target card, other than a basic land in a graveyard. Search its controller's graveyard, hand and library for all cards with the same name and remove them from the game.

I saw this card, and i was ready to start takeing my sal/game deck apart immediately, since i know this will be played maindeck alot in my meta.

Then i thought, wait, how well would this work in sal/game itself? If only as something more to help get rid of thier own copys.

What do people think? Is sal/game dead, not, stronger, or what?

At first blush, I'd have to say it's not good. The split second part forces you you run a discard spell before you activate Gamekeeper, or sac LED. That will slow the deck down considerably in some cases. They have to destroy your LED unless they go first, then draw and cast this. It makes things harder, but is so narrow that all there is to do is play around it.

The only decks that might run it are our two worst matchups anyway: Deadguy, and Fish. They probably won't, as they don't need to improve their combo game. Any Aggro deck with Black can run it just to insure the opponent has no Forces left.

The only decks I can see gaining significant improval from it are IGGy, to remove Force, and Train Wreck, who should have a very solid combo game with it. Unfortunately, IGGy gets hurt by it worse than anything.

I had a couple questions/comments about this deck...first off...does anyone know EXACTLY how much color of each mana needs to be floated in order to make the kill?

another thing....has anyone ever tried out Mesmeric Fiend in the sb as a wish target? or is it too slow/not effective enough?

one more thing...there's been a lot of builds on this forum and TMD but do you guys think that there is an optimal build right (bwg build) now or is it just personal prefference (# of infernal tutor, chromatic star etc...)?

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

I had a couple questions/comments about this deck...first off...does anyone know EXACTLY how much color of each mana needs to be floated in order to make the kill?

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The question is a bit vague. You have various methods of killing your opponent, so it dependes on which way you choose. You also have various ways of starting the combo. Technically, the cheapest you could do it for is 1W. This would be with a Gamekeeper in play. Sac it to Flashback Cabal Therapy, it's ability places a trinket and LED in the Graveyard, and Salvagers into play. Use the 1W to recur LED, and go off. If you have an LED in play, you need nothing. If you have an LED and no creature in play, you need 5. Two to Tutor or Wish. Sac the LED in response. One+LED mana to cast Salvagers. Two to recur LED.

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

another thing....has anyone ever tried out Mesmeric Fiend in the sb as a wish target? or is it too slow/not effective enough?

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It has been tried. It is effective, but too slow. It also burns a Living Wish, which are golden in this deck. With 8 plus Flashback discard spells, it is a rare instance where spending four plus a key card is worth the effect.

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

one more thing...there's been a lot of builds on this forum and TMD but do you guys think that there is an optimal build right (bwg build) now or is it just personal prefference (# of infernal tutor, chromatic star etc...)?

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There is no optimal build of this deck, but this is not due to personal preference. It is due to the fact that a great deal of ancillary hate cards effect this deck. You have to adjust what is in the Main and the Sideboard to what you expect to face. The good thing is, since this deck runs so many answers and ways to get them, it is usually minor changes. I will post my current list below:

2 Swamp
2 Snow Covered Swamp
1 Forest
2 Snow Covered Forest
1 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Living Wish
4 Tainted Pact
4 Innocent Blood

1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Aether Spellbomb
2 Sylvan Library

SB
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Orzhov Guildmage
1 City of Brass
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Massacre

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Originally Posted by Parcher

SB
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Orzhov Guildmage
1 City of Brass
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Massacre

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Massacre is interesting. I just put the deck back together and was trying to determine whether or not its worth including it. Its always a free way to kill off your keeper against plains which is a plus. Im running Kjedon Champions, the 1cc 3/1 that makes you sac a guy when he comes into play, also High Market/Phyrexian Tower. They're great ways to turn Living Wish into your keeper killer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

I had a couple questions/comments about this deck...first off...does anyone know EXACTLY how much color of each mana needs to be floated in order to make the kill?

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sorry...I may have not been clear here...what I meant was this: if you have the salvagers in play and you have the LED in hand and you are going off (using pyrite spellbomb as the win condition), how much white/red mana total is needed of each color in order to kill your opponent if they are at 20 life...does that make any more sense?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Massacre is interesting. I just put the deck back together and was trying to determine whether or not its worth including it. Its always a free way to kill off your keeper against plains which is a plus. Im running Kjedon Champions, the 1cc 3/1 that makes you sac a guy when he comes into play, also High Market/Phyrexian Tower. They're great ways to turn Living Wish into your keeper killer.

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I use Massacre instead of Infest for several reasons. One of the most common threats against this deck is Meddling Mage. Obviously this kills him for free. Against Fish, it sweeps their board other than Grunt, and this deck tend not to put anything in it's graveyard before comboing off. Goblins is the main target for Infest though.

The problem is, if they can keep you off four mana, they can usually keep you off three. The mono red versions usually have some combination of Pillar/Crypt/Chalice. To be honest, I take out Duress to bring in Deed instead of Massacre against them, as they hurt their clock to do so. They also tend to tap out more to cast these cards and threats. This give you ample opportunity to cast Deed to wipe both the hate, and some Goblins off the board.

Against White-splash, Massacre is the best possible sidebard card. I side out Innocent Blood for them, and leave in the discard to deal with Plow.

Tower is still a good sideboard target though, I'm just not using them now. Kjledorn is probably outdated and a wasted slot.

@lukatron: I do understand your question now. You need 38 mana to perform the kill. Casting Spellbomb 10 times (10C), recursing it 9 times (9C/9W), saccing it 10 times (10R). Therefore, you must recurse LED 37 times, gaining one mana on each loop, and three on the final. Once you have reached the threshold of needed White mana (28 recursions, saccing for White) you switch to Red. The final sac will leave you with two Red floating.

This is all sort of superflous though. The only occasions when it might matter is if your opponent has Blue or White untapped. White signals Abeyance, Orim's Chant, or Swords to Plowshares. Blue signals Counterspell (only effective before the second recursion), Trickbind/Stifle, or Brain Freeze. If this is the case, you must scout their hand with Discard before comboing. If not, it really doesn't matter what mana you use or choose. You can name an arbitrary large number, knowing your opponent will die before it becomes relevant.

It shouldn't matter much, you just generate an arbitrarily large number. But if you are killing someone at twenty with pyrite spellbomb, you need something like 9 white, 10 red, and 19 of any.

EDIT: Parcher beat me to it.

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

sorry...I may have not been clear here...what I meant was this: if you have the salvagers in play and you have the LED in hand and you are going off (using pyrite spellbomb as the win condition), how much white/red mana total is needed of each color in order to kill your opponent if they are at 20 life...does that make any more sense?

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Im thinking you dont understand how the deck 'combos' off. You win when you have Salvagers in play and any amount of Chromatic Sphere/Stars and LED's in your hand or graveyard. You need the 1W to activate Salvagers, you get your LED into hand. Play it, sac it for WWW. Then you do it again. Thats infinite mana. Then use that mana to draw through your deck with the Chromatic Star till you draw your one of Pyrite Spellbomb. Return LED for as much red mana as needed to throw spellbomb at your opponent 10+ times. If you need to, theres also the option of playing Living Wish and fetching the Orzhov Guildmage. You normally do that if you have LED but no cog to cycle through the deck.

@Parcher.
I noticed your playing Aether Spellbomb. I was running Necrogen in this spot but realized I really didnt need another spellbomb. Why are you playing yours?

Well, you actually can't go off without a trinket somewhere. You won't have a Wish to get the Guildmage in hand, as your hand will always be empty while recursing LED. The Guildmage is there in case 1) You or your opponent has removed Pyrite from the game. Or 2) Your opponent cannot be targeted. For lukatron, in that case you simply generate enough mana to recurse whatever trinket you may have available, and draw until you get a Wish. Then Wish for Guildmage, gain 21 life, then cause both of you to lose 20 life(or something to that effect).

In addition, I have to state that my previous description of the cycle was based on having Pyrite in hand or on the board. If not, you would need an additional 1W to recurse it.

Regarding Aether, Tash and I decided that we needed an additional maindecked way to deal with Meddling Mage. If they are intelligent, their first names LED. Their second can name either Wish or Pyrite. If they have Needle on Pyrite, you are dead. Fish is an awful matchup, and runs both, as well as Stifle. Threshold usually runs two of the three. Aether allows you to get out of this more easily. In addition, one of the only Aggro matchups this deck fears is Reanimator. They run Chalice, Needle, and sometimes Crypt in the sideboard. Aether will at least slow their threat long enough for you to react to the hate cards, and combo off.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Im thinking you dont understand how the deck 'combos' off. You win when you have Salvagers in play and any amount of Chromatic Sphere/Stars and LED's in your hand or graveyard. You need the 1W to activate Salvagers, you get your LED into hand. Play it, sac it for WWW. Then you do it again. Thats infinite mana. Then use that mana to draw through your deck with the Chromatic Star till you draw your one of Pyrite Spellbomb. Return LED for as much red mana as needed to throw spellbomb at your opponent 10+ times. If you need to, theres also the option of playing Living Wish and fetching the Orzhov Guildmage. You normally do that if you have LED but no cog to cycle through the deck.

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I think that YOU don't know what the heck I'm saying...the other guys actually answered my question perfectly (thanks guys), and yea, I do know how the combo works and I know you can just float 1,000 white mana and 1,000 red (or any ammount for that as much white/red mana as you want and kill them, but I was simply curious as to EXACTLY how much mana of each color is ACTUALLY needed in order to go off just because...

p.s...has any of you guys ever cast a tainted pact and then you hit a spellbomb, and you gotta take it because you don't want it to be removed...that seems like it might suck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

I think that YOU don't know what the heck I'm saying...the other guys actually answered my question perfectly (thanks guys), and yea, I do know how the combo works and I know you can just float 1,000 white mana and 1,000 red (or any ammount for that as much white/red mana as you want and kill them, but I was simply curious as to EXACTLY how much mana of each color is ACTUALLY needed in order to go off just because...

p.s...has any of you guys ever cast a tainted pact and then you hit a spellbomb, and you gotta take it because you don't want it to be removed...that seems like it might suck

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If you have another Bauble, no, you don't need to take it. You can dig for a Living Wish and get the Maga/Guildmage. Parcher just said this,

"1) You or your opponent has removed Pyrite from the game."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

I think that YOU don't know what the heck I'm saying...the other guys actually answered my question perfectly (thanks guys), and yea, I do know how the combo works and I know you can just float 1,000 white mana and 1,000 red (or any ammount for that as much white/red mana as you want and kill them, but I was simply curious as to EXACTLY how much mana of each color is ACTUALLY needed in order to go off just because...

p.s...has any of you guys ever cast a tainted pact and then you hit a spellbomb, and you gotta take it because you don't want it to be removed...that seems like it might suck

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I didnt see the reply from Parcher.

You RFG the Spellbomb and worry more about actually comboing. Like mentioned you can win with Living Wish when you draw through your deck.

I really like Parchers list.

I've just started to play Golden Grahams for the first time, and although I know most of the theory of the deck, I have little to none experiance with the deck.

I played a few games against a Vintage full power Dragon list and I kicked his ass big time. The Aether Spellbomb really helped me out in this match.

What makes me wondering, did you ever felt the need for acces to blue mana in the maindeck? I really hated it when I had the spellbomb, the only way to use it was to break a Diamond, before I was ready to go off. Maybe a single Underground Sea or Tropical island would help out (and makes your Tained Pacts a little better, since you would be replacing a (Snow-Covered) Swamp of Snow-Covered Forest with it).

Yes, that would be optimal; But it's a slippery slope.

The deck's worst matchups are first Fish, and a tie for second between Red Death and Deadguy. Death's clock is faster, but Deadguy runs both Swords and Vindicate. Thresh is probably a distant third as their countermagic is rarely a significant difficulty.

The reason I mention this is that this deck requires permanent mana sources. Every non-basic run is another weakness to exploit for Wasteland. Every Fetchland is vulnerable to Stifle. Running more than the minimum amount of color specific Duals leads toward vulnerability.

I suppose that since a great deal of our mana requirements are not color specific, a basic Island could be added. With two Deltas, that's three chnces to draw it. The problem is, with only one Aether, you need your resources to draw it when needed. I'm not sure that in cases where you actually have to use the Spellbomb, that Wishing for City or burning a Chromatic is any worse an allocation of resources than skewing a highly tested mana base.

Why is threshold so much easier than fish? Actually, my question should be, why is fish so much harder than threshold (since I can often beat thresh in testing)?

Perhaps you mean UWb fish, with maindeck stifles AND meddling mages, but many thresh decks run the same, or mage + pithing needle. Can you explain this a bit?

As a note, I run 3 maindeck stifle and 4 sideboard mages. No needles.