Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

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Was this meant as a response to me? Learn to read, then. I'm not justifying the counterfeits, I'm merely describing reality.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Anyone who thinks massive counterfeits are good for Legacy in the long run has to be suffering from a serious brain injury.

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Stop with this. If you can't discuss things politelly, then maybe don't discuss at all.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Without collectors, dealers, and players Magic doesn't exist as we know it. WotC's "no/low reprint policy" hurt 1 of those pillars and the likely end result is more counterfeits which then hurts collectors and dealers.

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Yes, you're right.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

But the big problem with that analogy is that the producers still sell tickets for shows to people who want to buy them. For this analogy to work, what would have to happen is that the producers (or whoever are the ones selling tickets) could be making tickets to sell, but they refuse to even though there's still plenty of room (i.e. they're not sold out). So if you want to buy a ticket to a show, you have to find someone who already has a ticket and try to get it from them.

The most relevant analogy I can think of is a company that owns the copyright to a TV series but, after the show went off the air, have refused to provide any actual way to still watch it (e.g. no DVD release, no iTunes download, nothing on Hulu, etc.) despite there being strong demand for it (i.e. we're not talking about some obscure show from 20 years ago or a series that bombed horribly and was canceled after 2 episodes; we're talking about a series that is actually really popular and would sell well if released somehow).

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This.

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Originally Posted by ESG

I'm with dontbiteitholmes: There are a lot of seriously warped attitudes in this community. If you want something -- whether it's a mountain bike, or a computer, or a piece of power, or a dual land -- but you can't afford it, you save for it. The purchase gains additional meaning because you worked for something; you didn't just snap your fingers and watch it appear. Some people act like they're entitled to cheap duals or a Tier 1 Legacy deck just because they're interested in the format. That's not how it works.

We all came to Magic at different times, but we all came in with nothing. Everybody started at zero and blah blah blah...

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...blah, blah, all the while the Chinese factories vomit tonnes of fakes. It definitely isn't helpful to be nostagic about your first Force of Nature and describe how you've built your collection from nothing, when there are economical laws (like the one saying that there where is a demand, there will be supply) that simply don't have a clue of Magic's exclusivity in the world of economics.
Wizards screwed it with the RL, the so-called "tool to protect the collectors", and now it will be mainly the collectors who'd be screwd by RL. Pretty funny, if you dare to ask me. Shame that they wasted ten of thousands of MY money in the process.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

Look, adult hobbies are expensive. Almost everything worth doing is expensive. I got into riding bikes this summer and easily spend $1000 on that. I have easily put $2000 into skimboards, bodyboards, wetsuits, and other equipment from living at the beach for a decade. Snowboarding is like $50 a lift ticket + hundreds to thousands in gear. Movies cost $10 a pop in theaters. Skydiving is $50+ a drop. Taking girls on dates is expensive (well depends how you play it but you get the point). I know many people who have bought $1000 worth of video games over the past 5 years easily. Many have dropped hundreds to thousands on WoW or LoL. I can't seem to leave the bar without my wallet being $30-50 lighter.

Every adult hobby is expensive, the difference with Magic was I could buy into a Legacy deck @ $1500 and years later when I'm done with it there was some confidence I could turn around and sell it and a fair percentage of my money back or more. There is very few hobbies where that's a thing. You think my used skimboard is worth the $400 I paid for it now 3 years later, you must be smoking crystal I might get $75-100 if I'm lucky. People get pissy because they don't want to drop money to get into Legacy but will happily throw money away elsewhere (cough Standard) because they are short sighted. In the long run over the past many years Legacy has been the LEAST EXPENSIVE HOBBY on the planet because the cards have mostly gone up or stayed the same. I'd like to see any hobby you do for 5 years and be able to cash out anywhere near the money you put in. Still people complain all the time like they don't fucking drop stacks on Standard and buy every video game on Steam. People just want it all for nothing and if they can justify getting it like that they pounce all over it. I would've been fine personally if my collection took a hit and it actually increased the health of the format. I bought the cards to play the game, as they say, and it's whatever. This will kill the format though. If there is no confidence you can sell out of the game it's going to absolutely kill legitimate Legacy and all that will be left is people who don't care because all their shit is bootleg anyways.

The way some people are foaming at the mouths like hungry jackals over this is embarrassing. I wonder if these people buy bikes that are priced "too good to be true" on craigslist knowing they are stolen, to backpack on earlier analogies. "I mean fuck it the bike's already been stolen, can't unsteal it. Owner probably should have locked it up better. It's not hurting the store anyways, they already sold the bike and the guy who lost his will buy another one." That's pretty much the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people and to be honest that's what's undermining my confidence in the game MUCH MORE than any amount of counterfeits could if people were actively against them. Lots of entitled kids wanting something for nothing and expecting everyone else to keep buying from legitimate suppliers to pick up the slack while at the same time they undermine the concept of buying from legitimate suppliers. Yeah, that's going to work out great. It's a shame too, I made a decision recently that I was going to keep my cards even though I could use the money elsewhere. It's taken me since middle school (Revised) to build up to finally owning a Power 9 set and it felt like quite the accomplishment, but now I see it more as a liability with the toxic mentality of the average player I just don't see this game existing in a healthy state 5-10 years from now like I used to.

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Dude, I do nothing of what you described. You know why? I'm mature. I don't have money to waste for skidmark diving or w/e the fuck is your favourite waste of time and money. I got gorgeous Persian wife and three children. My only expensive hobby is MtG and it's only expensive beacue of WotC's inability to reprint stuff in such number, that the prices hit the dirt. Which is, btw, a perfect counter-counterfeits measure, coz no one will fake cheap cards and lose money while doing it, surprise, surprise. So I'm getting out of it and I'm selling before this bubble bursts. You may foam as much as you want, but there's nothing you can do; this game/industry is driven by economics laws and ignore them at your own risk. Well was going to go point by point refute some of your posts but instead I will post this little snippet i found in an article called THE CREATION OF MAGIC by some dude Named RICHARD GARFIELD. I don't remember exactly what his part was in making Magic. I think he might have been the janitor or something anyway dude seems pretty smart check out what he has to say.

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Another thing I realized in the second year of playtesting really surprised me. Magic turned out to be one of the best economic simulations I had ever seen.

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Seriously, you act like you're entitled to have a collection whose price never drops.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Was this meant as a response to me? Learn to read, then. I'm not justifying the counterfeits, I'm merely describing reality.

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If you are trying to justify supporting Chinese counterfeiters over the people, shops, and companies who do legitimate business and have kept this game and format thriving for decades just so people can play in a handful of sanctioned Legacy events a year then yes I am. I'd be fine with proxy events being the new norm over this or obviously the reprint policy being revised, but taken to it's logical conclusion this undermines the legitimacy of Magic to a point I don't think is sustainable. Not that it matters, the die has already been cast. I think things are in motion that can't be undone it just irks me how much the average Magic player seems to hate the community that allowed the game to be what it is and would happily see it all unravel for personal gain (not you specifically but you won't have to dig far to find this is a very popular opinion at the moment). You seem to think this is somehow healthy for the format or Magic as a whole which is a different issue all together and is a view I can safely say we do not share. If I did agree I might see things differently but I fail to see how completely undermining the secondary market, especially with the gleefully destructive attitude some people are expressing, will lead to any long term good. I mean maybe if your ideal Magic experience is throwing down at your house with a couple buddies but you can already proxy for such events with no problem. People are acting like this is some kind of godsend for competitive Legacy but I just don't think that's a realistic view of the situation and where it is headed.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

If you are trying to justify supporting Chinese counterfeiters over the people, shops, and companies who do legitimate business and have kept this game and format thriving for decades just so people can play in a handful of sanctioned Legacy events a year then yes I am.

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What's wrong with you? I wrote for several times that I don't support the fakes. Reading troubles? Serious brain injury?

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

I'd be fine with proxy events being the new norm over this or obviously the reprint policy being revised, but taken to it's logical conclusion this undermines the legitimacy of Magic to a point I don't think is sustainable. Not that it matters, the die has already been cast.

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But the bolded part can't be done, and if WotC won't print the cards, someone else will. Note to readers who in fact can't read: I'm not justifying it, I'm describing reality.

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I think things are in motion that can't be undone it just irks me how much the average Magic player seems to hate the community that allowed the game...

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Stop this bullshit right now! I'm not hating the community, I'm merely describing the reality. also, I won't waste my hard-earned money on cardboard, be it WotC's or Shang-Chang's one. Do you understand it?

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You seem to think this is somehow healthy for the format or Magic as a whole which is a different issue all together and is a view I can safely say we do not share.

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What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't thInk it's healthy! Are you next level trolling me or WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?

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I mean maybe if your ideal Magic experience is throwing down at your house with a couple buddies but you can already proxy for such events with no problem.

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Learn to read.

I'm with dontbiteitholmes on this one (not in terms of his one on one discussions but about what he's been saying overall), there's no justifiable way to paint this in a positive way. I'm not surprised by the widespread acceptance of counterfeits in salvation/reddit whatever because the bitterness of the players who can't afford eternal formats and the way it intoxicates the community has been the elephant in the room. I've had the long term belief that more than 80% of the discussions on Magic forums are actually driven by agendas based on personal availability issues. So yeah, I'm not surprised. More like pissed. I know for a fact that this will make buying and selling much much harder, and I'm saying this from a purely "buying stuff for personal use only" point of view. And I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who've been complaining about Legacy's price barrier will just acquire these fakes to sell or trade them for their own personal profit mostly and continue playing Standard or whatever high-volume spikey format these kids play nowadays.

To me, this gets people talking, it forces Wizards to act and it changes the face of the game. These to me are good things. I have no plans to buy any of these, I will always try and get the real thing, but meaningful and efficient discourse, that's priceless.

I want to see change at Wizards, I want to see us as eternal players have our voices heard. If this is what it takes, then so be it. We need this. Not necessarily the fake cards, but the change, the talk, the change and the chance to get a say in the future of the game.

Also, until something changes I am not against New people playing legacy. I do not buy to collect, I buy to play. More people playing the better I say.

Also, this is a demon of their own making. It was going to happen eventually with situations as they are. This was always an eventuality and that, that amuses me to no end.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

What's wrong with you? I wrote for several times that I don't support the fakes. Reading troubles? Serious brain injury?

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The post on the last page below yours was not about your post or I would have quoted you. The way you responded to it I may have confused your POV with someone else as far as this being a good thing (this is my take a break from school all nighter rant time, so I'm not putting 100% effort into rereading every post). Anyways notice the post you are responding to starts with IF, so apparently it doesn't apply and that's all I can say about that. A lot of the stuff I'm writing is me speaking in general terms about the way people are reacting to this, I'm not trying to put anyone specific on these forums on blast but maybe that's not clear enough.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

What's wrong with you? I wrote for several times that I don't support the fakes. Reading troubles? Serious brain injury?
Stop this bullshit right now! I'm not hating the community, I'm merely describing the reality. also, I won't waste my hard-earned money on cardboard, be it WotC's or Shang-Chang's one. Do you understand it?

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Dude seriously? You cut out the part where I specifically said I wasn't talking about you at the end of this sentence, so you can see how you are also contributing to my confusion here.

One sentence in my last 4 posts has been about you and I started that sentence with IF on purpose, just to clear all that up. Oh well the part about it being supposedly good for Legacy too but apparently that was confusion with someone else, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

To me, this gets people talking, it forces Wizards to act and it changes the face of the game. These to me are good things. I have no plans to buy any of these, I will always try and get the real thing, but meaningful and efficient discourse, that's priceless.

I want to see change at Wizards, I want to see us as eternal players have our voices heard. If this is what it takes, then so be it. We need this. Not necessarily the fake cards, but the change, the talk, the change and the chance to get a say in the future of the game.

Also, until something changes I am not against New people playing legacy. I do not buy to collect, I buy to play. More people playing the better I say.

Also, this is a demon of their own making. It was going to happen eventually with situations as they are. This was always an eventuality and that, that amuses me to no end.

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Nothing will change. At least not for better. Theys won't abolish RL no matter what, becasue sues and shareholders.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

The post on the last page below yours was not about your post or I would have quoted you. The way you responded to it I may have confused your POV with someone else as far as this being a good thing (this is my take a break from school all nighter rant time, so I'm not putting 100% effort into rereading every post). Anyways notice the post you are responding to starts with IF, so apparently it doesn't apply and that's all I can say about that. A lot of the stuff I'm writing is me speaking in general terms about the way people are reacting to this, I'm not trying to put anyone specific on these forums on blast but maybe that's not clear enough.



Dude seriously? You cut out the part where I specifically said I wasn't talking about you at the end of this sentence, so you can see how you are also contributing to my confusion here.

One sentence in my last 4 posts has been about you and I started that sentence with IF on purpose, just to clear all that up. Oh well the part about it being supposedly good for Legacy too but apparently that was confusion with someone else, my bad.

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You know that word "if" might have an inculpatory subtone? If I'll write "if you really think/do xxx than yyy kittens will die" in the context of several flamy posts, do you really expect people to find such a post anything else than accusation?
Also, you were answering to my post and even quoted it, so if you wrote "If you are trying to justify..." or "...maybe if your ideal Magic experience..." it's of no surprise that I guessed that you refer to me. My bad, I can't read in between the lines.

Thread beyond stupid.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Nothing will change. At least not for better. Theys won't abolish RL no matter what, becasue sues and shareholders.



You know that word "if" might have an inculpatory subtone? If I'll write "if you really think/do xxx than yyy kittens will die" in the context of several flamy posts, do you really expect people to find such a post anything else than accusation?
Also, you were answering to my post and even quoted it, so if you wrote "If you are trying to justify..." or "...maybe if your ideal Magic experience..." it's of no surprise that I guessed that you refer to me. My bad, I can't read in between the lines.

Thread beyond stupid.

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Well the "flamey post" that jumped all this off wasn't even directed at anyone in particular, part of the issue is you assumed it was about you since it followed your post, so let's just call it 50/50 since you technically also flamed me for a post that wasn't about you. Anyways it seems we are both on the same page. I think we all knew better counterfeits were coming but in reality it's the average player's reaction to the counterfeits that I didn't see coming and I find that aspect much more troubling in the end. Time to abandon ship before it sinks.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

To me, this gets people talking, it forces Wizards to act and it changes the face of the game. These to me are good things. I have no plans to buy any of these, I will always try and get the real thing, but meaningful and efficient discourse, that's priceless.

I want to see change at Wizards, I want to see us as eternal players have our voices heard. If this is what it takes, then so be it. We need this. Not necessarily the fake cards, but the change, the talk, the change and the chance to get a say in the future of the game.

Also, until something changes I am not against New people playing legacy. I do not buy to collect, I buy to play. More people playing the better I say.

Also, this is a demon of their own making. It was going to happen eventually with situations as they are. This was always an eventuality and that, that amuses me to no end.

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I'm with Dice_Box here. While the fakes are overall bad for the game, change needs to happen.

Wizards' current business model is smart, but exploitative as hell and not indefinitely sustainable. Churn out a shitty premium product, but put an expensive staple card into it, and call it a day. Due to the horrendous secondary market prices, people will buy it, even if your friendly LGS next door charges 200% extra because hey, why the fuck not?

That's the thing that makes people bitter - not earnest players who build up a collection to play the fucking game, but hoarders and speculators who abuse MtG as some kind of stock market for nerds. And it only gets worse since Wizards intentions have become crystal clear lately - (re)prints in low numbers for artifical scarcity to keep prices high to further their money machine under the pretense of "protecting the collectors". Or did you really believe the Mind Seize pack with both Baleful Strix and TNN was coincidence? Wizards just claims "Oops, we're sorry." and is just going to do it the next time again with another equal crappy "Shit happens" apology.

The problem wouldn't even exist or be at least less severe if e.g. staples like Duals were only 20 bucks, instead of almost 200$ like Underground Sea. But I see it like Higgs - many people who try to get their hands on these cards are probably not going to play them, but try to sell them for a quick buck.

The course to which this discussion has shifted is fascinating. Perhaps it is shortsighted of me, but the game has always been just that, and never treated any higher by me. A game that is fun. That's what got me to play all those years back, what brought be to Legacy, what keeps me here. It would appear as though I am a minority in this, or at best among some silent majority. But for those calling quits and cashing out while the cashing is good, why really were you ever here? Is somehow that the game pieces used are no longer valued at the same amount detract from the game being played? Can it really be so foreign to love Legacy for the scale of play, regardless of whatever background monetary incentive arise? I'm all set post nuclear holocaust to play by candlelight, knowing full well I could never barter any amount of dual lands for food and water. Because, and I honestly believe this, that is not the point.
I am prepared to stand by and watch all cards drop in value to stock material prices and say money well spent. Was it a lot of money? You know it. But what did it get me? Years of enjoyment. And nothing currently occurring has any chance of stopping years to come. And really, am I that alone in feeling this way? Were all of my peers playing a different game entirely?

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

The course to which this discussion has shifted is fascinating. Perhaps it is shortsighted of me, but the game has always been just that, and never treated any higher by me. A game that is fun. That's what got me to play all those years back, what brought be to Legacy, what keeps me here. It would appear as though I am a minority in this, or at best among some silent majority. But for those calling quits and cashing out while the cashing is good, why really were you ever here? Is somehow that the game pieces used are no longer valued at the same amount detract from the game being played? Can it really be so foreign to love Legacy for the scale of play, regardless of whatever background monetary incentive arise? I'm all set post nuclear holocaust to play by candlelight, knowing full well I could never barter any amount of dual lands for food and water. Because, and I honestly believe this, that is not the point.
I am prepared to stand by and watch all cards drop in value to stock material prices and say money well spent. Was it a lot of money? You know it. But what did it get me? Years of enjoyment. And nothing currently occurring has any chance of stopping years to come. And really, am I that alone in feeling this way? Were all of my peers playing a different game entirely?

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I will cash out when the prices are high, then buy the same cards after the bubble bursts. This way I'd have fun with MtG and buttloads of money. Sounds good. Do whatever you wish to do.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

Look, adult hobbies are expensive. Almost everything worth doing is expensive. I got into riding bikes this summer and easily spend $1000 on that. I have easily put $2000 into skimboards, bodyboards, wetsuits, and other equipment from living at the beach for a decade. Snowboarding is like $50 a lift ticket + hundreds to thousands in gear. Movies cost $10 a pop in theaters. Skydiving is $50+ a drop. Taking girls on dates is expensive (well depends how you play it but you get the point). I know many people who have bought $1000 worth of video games over the past 5 years easily. Many have dropped hundreds to thousands on WoW or LoL. I can't seem to leave the bar without my wallet being $30-50 lighter.

Every adult hobby is expensive, the difference with Magic was I could buy into a Legacy deck @ $1500 and years later when I'm done with it there was some confidence I could turn around and sell it and a fair percentage of my money back or more. There is very few hobbies where that's a thing. You think my used skimboard is worth the $400 I paid for it now 3 years later, you must be smoking crystal I might get $75-100 if I'm lucky. People get pissy because they don't want to drop money to get into Legacy but will happily throw money away elsewhere (cough Standard) because they are short sighted. In the long run over the past many years Legacy has been the LEAST EXPENSIVE HOBBY on the planet because the cards have mostly gone up or stayed the same. I'd like to see any hobby you do for 5 years and be able to cash out anywhere near the money you put in. Still people complain all the time like they don't fucking drop stacks on Standard and buy every video game on Steam. People just want it all for nothing and if they can justify getting it like that they pounce all over it. I would've been fine personally if my collection took a hit and it actually increased the health of the format. I bought the cards to play the game, as they say, and it's whatever. This will kill the format though. If there is no confidence you can sell out of the game it's going to absolutely kill legitimate Legacy and all that will be left is people who don't care because all their shit is bootleg anyways.

The way some people are foaming at the mouths like hungry jackals over this is embarrassing. I wonder if these people buy bikes that are priced "too good to be true" on craigslist knowing they are stolen, to backpack on earlier analogies. "I mean fuck it the bike's already been stolen, can't unsteal it. Owner probably should have locked it up better. It's not hurting the store anyways, they already sold the bike and the guy who lost his will buy another one." That's pretty much the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people and to be honest that's what's undermining my confidence in the game MUCH MORE than any amount of counterfeits could if people were actively against them. Lots of entitled kids wanting something for nothing and expecting everyone else to keep buying from legitimate suppliers to pick up the slack while at the same time they undermine the concept of buying from legitimate suppliers. Yeah, that's going to work out great. It's a shame too, I made a decision recently that I was going to keep my cards even though I could use the money elsewhere. It's taken me since middle school (Revised) to build up to finally owning a Power 9 set and it felt like quite the accomplishment, but now I see it more as a liability with the toxic mentality of the average player I just don't see this game existing in a healthy state 5-10 years from now like I used to.

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dontbiteitholmes,

Your post was one of the best I have seen here in months. I don't always subscibe to your opinions but I do here. Bravo. Fakes are a plague that affects many hobbies. I have no respect for anyone that supports fakes in any way. Integrity is paramount in a collectible hobby. I like that there is B&M storres. I like SCG events. I like that cards are worth more than the stock they are printed on. Perhaps you (dontbiteitholmes) and I are now dinosoars in the world today.

I feel that there is value in rarity, collectibility, and nostalgia. This applies to all cards in some way, not just out of print cards. I have a feeling like a fair number of the younger folks would rather find some way to cheat the system (via printing your own or hiring an overseas company adept at faking mtg cards) than support the hobby in a legitimate manner. Personally, those methods of cheating the system make me sick. I also collect coints and can state that similar intentioned ideas (counterfiting, cleaning, whizzing, ect coins) has ruined many coins and has caused the legitimate collectors time, money, and headaches.

Peace

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Do whatever you wish to do.

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As always to you as well.

This thread reminds me of the True Name Nemesis thread. Different context but the same flaming and trolling.

The Source: Your Source for Flaming


Back on topic: I wonder if they can make it so you can print older cards with MTGO holiday cube art. It's definitely fake but it should be fun for EDH or Cube.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If I want a bike I will pay for it at a store that has many makes, brands and prices. If I want to play magic I have no such options. I have one brand, all the shops sell them at roughly the same price and at will increase that price. It's a bubble that has to burst. Supply meets demand. We all want it, then let Wizards print it. If they can't or won't, let another brand step in.

To be honest, I am sick of my friends cashing out and watching legacy slowly die. This bull shit can be ovoided. It only takes a backbone from Wizards, some honest pricing from stores and online retailers. If they don't want to do that, then let them reap what they sow.

I am not going to go out of my way to buy these, but I am happy that the bubble will burst and we might actually see some kind reasonable discourse from all involved. Those using the game as a stock market, those ripping players new ass holes, this was a long time coming. If there was any other way I would embrace it but there is not. So if this is it, if this is the way to make this game a GAME again and not a stock exchange, then so be it.

It might not be right, but it's all we got to put a stop to massive monopolistic issues that Plague this game.

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The correct analogy here is not that you want to ride a bike. The correct analogy here is that you want to ride a specific brand of bike that they don't sell for cheap. The analogy for riding a bike is wanting to play a strategic 1v1 card game with player-built decks, more or less, or a 1v1 card game in general. For that, there are options. I've been investigating Android:Netrunner myself. Interesting game and way, way cheaper than Magic. Everything ever printed for it in two years is like a couple dual lands' worth.

Of course, this being a multiplayer game really screws comparisons up because network effects are involved - you don't get that much benefit from someone else riding the same brand of bike, but you do benefit from people riding bikes in general. In games, it's pretty game-specific. A Netrunner community existing isn't that beneficial to me as a Magic player, and vice versa. I'd really advise playing multiple games - it's what helps break the stranglehold of having to play that game everyone else plays.

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Originally Posted by Lt. Quattro

Wizards knew there was a large and growing demand for legacy cards and chose not to do a thing about it. Now its time to pay the devil its due.

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This is pretty much how things are. If there's demand for something, it will inevitably be served whether criminal or not.

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Originally Posted by warai

I'm actually quite sick of the argument legacy is to expensive to play. Just get a job, don't go out every weekend,
go to less restaurants and save money.

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I agree with you. Most of my friends play Magic, and they're all amazed at what stuff I have and how I can spend so much money on it. We all basically make the same amount of money. Secret is: I don't drink, smoke, party, have sushi 1+ times a week. I stick to 1 or two video games, and not freak out during steam sales. I'm living at home and I'm single. There is so much +EV there.

Koby and Matt know how I am with Magic. In one week, contemplating selling out the next... Which is true as of last night, but I'm here to stay... for now. I thought of selling out just to not have to worry, but, I shouldn't have a problem selling my goodies as they all have good track records, and having a good name in the high end community also helps. Think of Occam, We would trust him 100% with anything he has. While I'm not saying I'm as big or as reputable as him, but you get my point.

To be honest, I'm going to take advantage of everyone selling out. My intention was to sell a large amount of stuff in Sac next weekend (extra collections I picked up) and finish off my beta dual set, but I might just try and get every collection from every person selling out.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

dontbiteitholmes,

Your post was one of the best I have seen here in months. I don't always subscibe to your opinions but I do here. Bravo. Fakes are a plague that affects many hobbies. I have no respect for anyone that supports fakes in any way. Integrity is paramount in a collectible hobby. I like that there is B&M storres. I like SCG events. I like that cards are worth more than the stock they are printed on. Perhaps you (dontbiteitholmes) and I are now dinosoars in the world today.

I feel that there is value in rarity, collectibility, and nostalgia. This applies to all cards in some way, not just out of print cards. I have a feeling like a fair number of the younger folks would rather find some way to cheat the system (via printing your own or hiring an overseas company adept at faking mtg cards) than support the hobby in a legitimate manner. Personally, those methods of cheating the system make me sick. I also collect coints and can state that similar intentioned ideas (counterfiting, cleaning, whizzing, ect coins) has ruined many coins and has caused the legitimate collectors time, money, and headaches.

Peace

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Ok, so if I don't want to pay USD 100 for a piece of cardboard without which I can't play my deck, what is your advice? But no more "nostalgia, respect, hobbies, fun, bikes" etc. A practical advice "find a better job" or "get out of our format" or "handpick garbage cans" or w/e, but no metaphysical speeches about sentimental value of our cards and tehe joy of collecting.
I play a strategical (card)board game. The amount of fun (moreover declining ever since Mental Missetp and bros.) is not worth the money. I'd play the game if it would be cheaper, I'd keep the cards I got, if I wouldn't need to purchase USD hundreds/thousands worthy of new cards annualy just to stay competitive, etc. Considering the game-design trend of MtG and the danger of new fakes and the need to waste 100 USD if you need fourth Tundra et cetera et cetera, I decided to leave.
Part of this is due to WotC's inability to reprint the old cards or to print the new ones in reasonable numbers. It's not only becasue of that and I don't blame them for things they can't affect, but there are things they could have done, but they gave up.
I love your example with coins collectors. Wizards should have known better. Really, turn the game pieces into Roman Denarii and then look in awe that ppl falsificate them, oh surprise, wait, not really...

I really can't understand what's so amazing about the fact that our game pieces are expensive. Ok, there will be no more Roman Empire to make their coins, so I guess that it's fine that their ancient money are valuable. But WotC still exist and they may print the rooks, bishops and....

[CHORUS]
"No way, there's that Promise of the Reserved List. No more bishops. We protect the collectors!
[CHORUS]

Yep, except that the RL might be the reason for the fakes that... guess what... will harm the collectors.

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Originally Posted by r3dd09

I'm living at home and I'm single.

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If you're living at home and not paying for many/any household bills, then you have far more disposable income then the vast majority of adults (that, you know, don't live with mommy and daddy). And if you don't have a girlfriend, then that ups your disposable income even more. So... if you're a single guy that lives at home with his parents, you can afford to play Legacy. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Ok, so if I don't want to pay USD 100 for a piece of cardboard without which I can't play my deck, what is your advice? But no more "nostalgia, respect, hobbies, fun, bikes" etc. A practical advice "find a better job" or "get out of our format" or "handpick garbage cans" or w/e, but no metaphysical speeches about sentimental value of our cards and tehe joy of collecting.
I play a strategical (card)board game. The amount of fun (moreover declining ever since Mental Missetp and bros.) is not worth the money. I'd play the game if it would be cheaper, I'd keep the cards I got, if I wouldn't need to purchase USD hundreds/thousands worthy of new cards annualy just to stay competitive, etc. Considering the game-design trend of MtG and the danger of new fakes and the need to waste 100 USD if you need fourth Tundra et cetera et cetera, I decided to leave.
Part of this is due to WotC's inability to reprint the old cards or to print the new ones in reasonable numbers. It's not only becasue of that and I don't blame them for things they can't affect, but there are things they could have done, but they gave up.
I love your example with coins collectors. Wizards should have known better. Really, turn the game pieces into Roman Denarii and then look in awe that ppl falsificate them, oh surprise, wait, not really...

I really can't understand what's so amazing about the fact that our game pieces are expensive. Ok, there will be no more Roman Empire to make their coins, so I guess that it's fine that their ancient money are valuable. But WotC still exist and they may print the rooks, bishops and....

[CHORUS]
"No way, there's that Promise of the Reserved List. No more bishops. We protect the collectors!
[CHORUS]

Yep, except that the RL might be the reason for the fakes that... guess what... will harm the collectors.

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A simple response to your simple question. Use proxies. How many money no proxy tournaments do you attend anyway. The community, as far as I know, could care less if you play casually using proxies (the obvious proxies). You were blatently dismissing the issue of collectibility so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to play with. I have 3 words, collectible card game. You may not like it. It may get under your skin. It may even prevent you from playing the deck you want to at a big tournament... but it is a collectible card game.

Another silly point to make. Wizards (or Hasbro, if you like) prints Magic cards. Everyone else prints fakes. Too many people here are treating the two as if they are identical. One has a place in our community. The other is illegal (if done within the US). This isn't prohibition. During the 20s, illegal booze was still booze. This is more akin to fake jewelry. Unfortunately, due to the cohort represented here I doubt that fake jewelry matters too much. When you get married, if you choose to buy jewelry, you expect authenticity. When I buy magic cards, I expect the same level of authenticity.

My opinion is that everyone here should as well. It is a slippery slope if we, as a community, waiver on this.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

A simple response to your simple question. Use proxies. How many money no proxy tournaments do you attend anyway. The community, as far as I know, could care less if you play casually using proxies (the obvious proxies). You were blatently dismissing the issue of collectibility so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to play with. I have 3 words, collectible card game. You may not like it. It may get under your skin. It may even prevent you from playing the deck you want to at a big tournament... but it is a collectible card game.

Another silly point to make. Wizards (or Hasbro, if you like) prints Magic cards. Everyone else prints fakes. Too many people here are treating the two as if they are identical. One has a place in our community. The other is illegal (if done within the US). This isn't prohibition. During the 20s, illegal booze was still booze. This is more akin to fake jewelry. Unfortunately, due to the cohort represented here I doubt that fake jewelry matters too much. When you get married, if you choose to buy jewelry, you expect authenticity. When I buy magic cards, I expect the same level of authenticity.

My opinion is that everyone here should as well. It is a slippery slope if we, as a community, waiver on this.

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I don't want fakes, but I acknowledge they exist solely because there is a demand for it. The supplier (Wizards) has ignored that demand. I have to imagine Wizards was smart enough to have seen this day coming, yet they did nothing substantial until M15. Strange.

Also, if the Wizards version of Liliana of the Veil and alibaba's version of Liliana of the Veil are 100% identical (I understand they're currently not, but in time, I think it's safe to assume they'll be indistinguishable from each other), what makes one authentic and the other not? What if I gave you the alibaba version, but told you it was ripped from a pack. How do you authenticate it?

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

A simple response to your simple question. Use proxies.

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Proxies are not allowed at tournaments. Sayin "play with proxies" is an equivalent to "get out of our format".

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

How many money no proxy tournaments do you attend anyway.

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Sorry, but I got only PhD. I don't understand this sentence.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

The community, as far as I know, could care less if you play casually using proxies (the obvious proxies).

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All casual MtG debiliated into EDH. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

You were blatently dismissing the issue of collectibility so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to play with.

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Yes, that's what people do when they want to discuss some aspect of game: they discuss the particular aspect and set aside the other aspects.
Btw, it seems to me that you're blatently dismissing the issue of gaming so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to caress with.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

I have 3 words, collectible card game. You may not like it. It may get under your skin. It may even prevent you from playing the deck you want to at a big tournament... but it is a collectible card game.

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Then lets collect, collect.
I don't know what would be so bad if 7th Edition or M12 or FTV:WTF brought back duals/fetches/Cosmic Horror, how exactly it would improve/worsen the situation of collectors that collect duals/fetches/Cosmic Horrors, except that it would make them available for the players, who are, you know, the third pillar of MtG community.
Do you really think that those are the collectors who buy the Chinese fakes? Of course not. Players buy them, because they want to play the game but not for the cost of kidney. Is it right? Is it wrong? In the weird, immoral and otherwise perverse world of cardboard crack, I can't even tell. I just know that there's that something something supply demand law. WotC don't print chea cards although people want them? Soemeone else will start the printing.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Another silly point to make. Wizards (or Hasbro, if you like) prints Magic cards. Everyone else prints fakes.

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Yes. Quite obvious.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Too many people here are treating the two as if they are identical.

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That's human nature, moreover for gaming purposes they are the same - it's not like your beta foil dual taps for a different mana then an MWS dual or even a piece of paper with "Scrubs Land" written on it. This isn't prohibition. During the 20s, illegal booze was still booze and illegal dual still adds eithe :b: or :w: to your pool; this isn't fake jewelry. Instead of fighting the human nature they should have not listen to the hoarders and wannabe-stockmarketheroes and simply print the needed stuff like there's no tomorrow. Would anybody fake cheap cards? I guess not. Would it kill the collectability of game? I guess not.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

When you get married, if you choose to buy jewelry, you expect authenticity. When I buy magic cards, I expect the same level of authenticity.

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Sadly the authenticity cannot be warranted anymore. Haven't you heard of those fake Chinese cards? There's even a thread on Source. Some ppl even argue that the RL and similar WotC's policies that should have protect the collectors not only failed, but were a part of the trouble.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

My opinion is that everyone here should as well. It is a slippery slope if we, as a community, waiver on this.

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Lets your community do whatever it wishes to.

This isn't as cut and dry as many people are making it out to be, nor is it necessarily an issue of morality as many people are framing it (it's actually more of a utilitarian issue). At the end of the day, the people responsible are not necessarily the counterfeiters, because they are merely providing a service for which extensive demand exists; rather, the people responsible are members of the community who are fed up with the price bubble, and who are willing to risk commissioning fake cards in order to play the game. Make no mistake, this is pure economics in action; there is no product that only ever increases in value, and investors in this game have had it far too good for far too long. The reserve list artificially inflated the price of the duals far beyond the average consumer's price range, and whilst those people don't have the right to consume products without paying for them, investors shouldn't have the right of a completely risk-free investment, which is essentially what buying legacy staples was. It was a goose laying golden eggs, and thanks to the reprint policy, it not only kept giving to those fortunate enough to have bought in at earlier stages of the game, it also severely punished newer players.

The way I see it, the collectible value of verifiable originals hasn't been affected in any way, though I would certainly go out and have them appraised, verified, and documented now before the dam breaks, and fakes become virtually undetectable. For the foreseeable future, people still need legitimate copies to play in tournaments, and having some means of independently validating the authenticity of your cards will probably be important moving forward. Not only that, but the number of originals isn't going to change, and those cards will still have value to collectors in a sea of fakes, so as long as the article in question can easily be verified as an original (hence validating your cards now), you should be fine. If this is seriously a concern for you, be proactive and find some means of doing this, because by the time the fakes are virtually indistinguishable, it will be too late. Protect your investment, and the prices for some of these cards may even go up if the relative scarcity of verifiable originals increases. They will still hold value by virtue of their status as originals, and will thus still be highly collectible.

As for whether or not this will kill the game, I'm sceptical. Other hobbies have dealt with counterfeits for years, and they don't all have a game to fall back on. In fact, this may allow magic to become far more popular than it ever would have otherwise. That said, in the short term, it will certainly hit markets that have thus far been almost entirely risk-free. This actually marks the transition of control over the game away from WotC, and towards players, and there are several silver linings to this, some of which have already been mentioned:

1) Lower barrier to entry increasing participation across all formats. Even if the fakes aren't widespread, panic selling of cards will drop prices initially, and allow newer players into modern and legacy. For the time being, it seems that the fakes aren't hugely widespread, and even if they were, the market will equalise eventually. There will come a point at which demand for the cards levels off, and at this stage, supply will stop entering the market, and prices should stabilise. This is essentially a market correction, though the correct market price for these goods is anyone's guess.

2) More avenues for player-driven creativity. We're going to see some awesome proxies and alters come out of this, and even better, we're going to see player-created sets and cubes. This is a good thing, as it will allow us to experience the game in new ways, and there could even be quite a bit of player-driven innovation in terms of game mechanics and formats. This is a huge opportunity akin to the explosion of mods in computer gaming back in the late 90s and early 2000s. Given how cheap it is, anyone could feasibly upload images for their custom set, and people can have it printed and sent to their doorstep within two weeks. Booze cube? That's not even the tip of the iceberg.

3) Opportunities for new industries, and the strengthening of existing ones. There is now a real need for reliable fake detection, meaning that people with those skills will be in demand. In addition to this, some kind of interface between Wizards and this industry will likely need to be established, so there are probably a few opportunities there.

4) If the number of people getting into the non-rotating formats is high enough, a new market will be created for the original cards. I.e. people will play the game and covet an original force of will or dual land, and players who were smart and verified their investments before the advent of perfect fakes will likely be in possession of a highly sought after commodity.

In any case, this is now a fact of life that we have to live with, for better or worse. I can't say I'm unhappy that things have finally come to a head, because a lot of issues with the game and its business model have been forced out into the open. Some of you will lose money, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to your cause. I want people to play against, and having members of the community treating their pieces of wizard-paper like the NYSE was always one of the scummiest aspects of this game. Now that Wizards is forced to stop holding your dicks at the urinal, we may finally get a few more players coming through, even if they have to start slowly, and make their way into the community by playing fakes at the kitchen table.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

The course to which this discussion has shifted is fascinating. Perhaps it is shortsighted of me, but the game has always been just that, and never treated any higher by me. A game that is fun. That's what got me to play all those years back, what brought be to Legacy, what keeps me here. It would appear as though I am a minority in this, or at best among some silent majority. But for those calling quits and cashing out while the cashing is good, why really were you ever here? Is somehow that the game pieces used are no longer valued at the same amount detract from the game being played? Can it really be so foreign to love Legacy for the scale of play, regardless of whatever background monetary incentive arise? I'm all set post nuclear holocaust to play by candlelight, knowing full well I could never barter any amount of dual lands for food and water. Because, and I honestly believe this, that is not the point.
I am prepared to stand by and watch all cards drop in value to stock material prices and say money well spent. Was it a lot of money? You know it. But what did it get me? Years of enjoyment. And nothing currently occurring has any chance of stopping years to come. And really, am I that alone in feeling this way? Were all of my peers playing a different game entirely?

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My cards have two different kinds of value, a dollar value and value as a piece in a game. If one or the other was going down, I would probably keep. I mean if I thought the Legacy game was still going to be healthy moving forward but the value of my cards would go down I wouldn't sell. If I thought Legacy was going to taper off but the market wasn't going to come to a head at some point in the next few years I'd also keep as I'm quite fond of my cards. The way I see it though within the next 2-3 years there is going to be an influx of fakes and that is going to cause the quick demise of Legacy as a real format and make it hard as shit to sell cards (and MTG players overall seems overjoyed by this for some reason?). Why the fuck would I want to be left holding that bag? Also I've been here since before Legacy was a format back when we used to sling Drains and Workshops. Was I ever really here, lol who are you?

I tried to buy some fake cards and 2 of the sellers answered me today and said that they´re stores got shut down from the police and/or that they stand under watching eyes from the goverment and so on!
So I think that wizards/hasbro will had took legal actions against those wholesalers in China. Otherwise I cant understand such status...

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

My cards have two different kinds of value, a dollar value and value as a piece in a game. If one or the other was going down, I would probably keep. I mean if I thought the Legacy game was still going to be healthy moving forward but the value of my cards would go down I wouldn't sell. If I thought Legacy was going to taper off but the market wasn't going to come to a head at some point in the next few years I'd also keep as I'm quite fond of my cards. The way I see it though within the next 2-3 years there is going to be an influx of fakes and that is going to cause the quick demise of Legacy as a real format and make it hard as shit to sell cards (and MTG players overall seems overjoyed by this for some reason?). Why the fuck would I want to be left holding that bag?

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Pretty much this...

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Originally Posted by Illusions

In any case, this is now a fact of life that we have to live with, for better or worse. I can't say I'm unhappy that things have finally come to a head, because a lot of issues with the game and its business model have been forced out into the open. Some of you will lose money, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to your cause. I want people to play against, and having members of the community treating their pieces of wizard-paper like the NYSE was always one of the scummiest aspects of this game. Now that Wizards is forced to stop holding your dicks at the urinal, we may finally get a few more players coming through, even if they have to start slowly, and make their way into the community by playing fakes at the kitchen table.

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...and also this.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If you're living at home and not paying for many/any household bills, then you have far more disposable income then the vast majority of adults (that, you know, don't live with mommy and daddy). And if you don't have a girlfriend, then that ups your disposable income even more. So... if you're a single guy that lives at home with his parents, you can afford to play Legacy. Got it.

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You seem bugged with my situation. I got the solution, go buy some BB goodies. :)

demmand does not and probably should not affect product that is out of print. My opinion of Wizards strategy is this. They are trying to discover and print new mechanics, cards, flavor, ect for the betterment of thier bottom line, the player base, and the stores/retailers/distributers. I don't thing it would be a good long term strategy to put too much focus within the in print product on cards that have already had thier time.

I have been saying this for well over 5 years, but I will say it again. The future of this game is based on the new future cards, not the old ones collecting dust (accruing value) in binders. Every year I see new faces with thier head on backwards, thinking that magic is about dual lands or power or fetchlands, ect.. Look at the cards of legacy. Most of the old cards are the gas. They put crap in to play for u2, they give dual color access, they counter crap on t1. The game is often decided by the new stuff, delver, stonforge, emrakul, ect. I would much rather have wizards give me more of those type of cards, adding more depth to the game, then have them rehash plain jane overpowered cards like tundra, wasteland, or FOW.

Return to Ravnica was all about the shocks. They did what everyone wanted and reprinted expensive cards en masse. They made those reprints the reason why to open packs. Personally, I thought it was one of the most boring blocks in recent memory.

As to your question. I am not ignorant to the fact that fakes can be made that are identical according to even the experts. I won't tell you that I know the difference, because I obviously wouldn't. Perhapse there wouldn't even be one. They would still be fakes. My point is that we, as a community, should not support this type of behaviour. I am a big fan of the holo thingy as it makes the faking process that more difficult. If we don't show monetary support. IE only buy from B&M and only trade with people who do the same, this will be a non-issue. I know that may never happen, but I subscribe to the philosphy that the world is what you make it. That is why I do exactly what I suggested and probably always will.

peace.

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Originally Posted by r3dd09

You seem bugged with my situation. I got the solution, go buy some BB goodies. :)

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Your attitude of "poor losers, get a job to play Legacy!" doesn't make sense when your own situation (living for free with mommy and daddy) allows you to circumvent the financial realities of adulthood.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

I tried to buy some fake cards and 2 of the sellers answered me today and said that they´re stores got shut down from the police and/or that they stand under watching eyes from the goverment and so on!
So I think that wizards/hasbro will had took legal actions against those wholesalers in China. Otherwise I cant understand such status...

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I can assure you the printers in China are running strong. If Apple and Prada can't stop China I seriously doubt WotC holds sway. You are talking about distribution which are basically the people who buy bulk from the printers (who only sell in serious bulk) and piece those cards out to buyers. Up until now 99% of this has been going to shady people trying to pass off fakes as real which is a whole different problem but is to be expected from time to time. Now that every little kid is hungry for fake cards and that is a known fact you can expect the momentum to slowly but surely build up until there is somewhat reliable sources to get fake shit out to people who are willing to pay $5 a piece for hackey U Seas. Before we were all working under the impression that regular MTG players were avoiding fake cards but now the wool has been pulled back. When people were trying to pass this shit off as real they had to play careful, you can't sell 50 dual lands a week and not have someone notice which is why the market isn't saturated with this shit already. Now that people know they can just be like, "Yeah shit is fake $6 please." and people will buy it it's going to be a real game changer (literally). Also fuck you for being a part of this.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

demmand does not and probably should not affect product that is out of print.

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:cry:
I'm afraid that something something supply demand says otherwise.

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My opinion of Wizards strategy is this. They are trying to discover and print new mechanics, cards, flavor, ect for the betterment of thier bottom line, the player base, and the stores/retailers/distributers. I don't thing it would be a good long term strategy to put too much focus within the in print product on cards that have already had thier time.

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Yeah, but there are ppl who want to play with the old cards, but can't afford them. WotC were showing them finger for over a decade and now the situation escalated into printhouses forming a belt all over from Culcutta to Beijing daily vomiting millions of fake cards 24/7 in three-shift operation, no Christmas holiday.

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I have been saying this for well over 5 years, but I will say it again. The future of this game is based on the new future cards, not the old ones collecting dust (accruing value) in binders.

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The future of this game is based on what the people want.

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Every year I see new faces with thier head on backwards, thinking that magic is about dual lands or power or fetchlands, ect.. Look at the cards of legacy. Most of the old cards are the gas. They put crap in to play for u2, they give dual color access, they counter crap on t1. The game is often decided by the new stuff, delver, stonforge, emrakul, ect. I would much rather have wizards give me more of those type of cards, adding more depth to the game, then have them rehash plain jane overpowered cards like tundra, wasteland, or FOW.

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So your trouble is that ppl play the cards they like to play? Oh so...

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I know that may never happen, but I subscribe to the philosphy that the world is what you make it. That is why I do exactly what I suggested and probably always will.

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The world I'll make is a world where there will be no trouble with fakes. No Magic = no fakes.

If the fakes get to the point where they're 100% indistinguishable from the real thing, then what? How does one authenticate a non-holostamp card?

Cards being expensive is not a defense for buying fakes. Knowingly playing fake cards in a tournament is against the rules. It is your choice to violate the rules of the tournament, but I will never accept it. I will call anyone out for breaking tournament rules. I guess I will need to look closer at my opponents cards to ensure he is actually playing Magic. I just remembered my favorite quote about arguing with idiots. For that reason I think I am done with this thread. I have said what I have to say.

Enjoy trying to defend breaking tournament rules to a judge.

May be WOTC should start printing and sell cheap proxys not legal for tournaments (singles and sets), for young people to start gaming, or for users to build theirs testing decks or cube drafts sets. Business oportunity!

(Or may this website) xD

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Your attitude of "poor losers, get a job to play Legacy!" doesn't make sense when your own situation (living for free with mommy and daddy) allows you to circumvent the financial realities of adulthood.

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Where did I say "poor losers, get a job to play legacy!"? I'm saying spend less and save more.
I also don't live at home for free, for the record.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Cards being expensive is not a defense for buying fakes.

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I'm not defending fakes. In fact I dislike them. But I see that they're printed only because of economics laws; and even those laws I do not defedn, becasue they defend themselves. It's like fighting the gravity.

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Knowingly playing fake cards in a tournament is against the rules.

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Thanks, I never knew that. /sarcasm

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It is your choice to violate the rules of the tournament, but I will never accept it. I will call anyone out for breaking tournament rules.

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What a novelty, I do this everytime anybody breaks the rules.

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I guess I will need to look closer at my opponents cards to ensure he is actually playing Magic.

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No Magic = no fakes.

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I just remembered my favorite quote about arguing with idiots. For that reason I think I am done with this thread. I have said what I have to say.

Enjoy trying to defend breaking tournament rules to a judge.

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Dude, I think you should follow this link: http://piv.pivpiv.dk/

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Originally Posted by r3dd09

Where did I say "poor losers, get a job to play legacy!"? I'm saying spend less and save more.
I also don't live at home for free, for the record.

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You agreed with this post (bolded mine):

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Originally Posted by warai

I'm actually quite sick of the argument legacy is to expensive to play. Just get a job, don't go out every weekend,
go to less restaurants and save money.

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And then you went on to state how you don't go out and party, you play the same 1-2 video games and that you live at home. The "live at home" part is where I took exception because rent + utilities will take up the lion's share of a person's income. You do not have that financial burden to bear, so you're able to spend that money on stuff like Magic. I don't understand where you get off telling people to get a job, stop going out to eat with friends, etc when you're living at home with mommy and daddy. We could ALL save more money if we lived at home like a child. But we're, you know, adults. Adults shouldn't be sponging off mommy and daddy unless they absolutely have no other choice.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Your attitude of "poor losers, get a job to play Legacy!" doesn't make sense when your own situation (living for free with mommy and daddy) allows you to circumvent the financial realities of adulthood.

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Man, why are you focusing on this. I didn't feel like that's how he meant it. And the entry barrier of Legacy is I think a bit exaggerated. I am married, single income household, mediocre salary and yet still building towards Vintage. Legacy takes a couple years and Vintage takes a couple years more if you are not doing too badly or if you're not a student. I think that's one of the nice things about Legacy. When you spend time and effort to get into this format you come to love and appreciate it more, you grow up within the game and become a part of the community. It gives sentimental value to your decks and to the history you had with the format. I think it is quite valuable. /derail

With all the comments on the "high cost to play legacy," I think it's important to note that the actual cost to play legacy is much lower than the implied cost, which is the cost to play legacy only with netdecks or decks with a high scg open finish on the hopes of winning a tournament. I think the same hypercompetitive nerd-culture that makes buying illegal counterfeit mechandise from a shady online dealer even a consideration is the same that demands an expensive deck to play.


Also, before you say it, yes, I will go enjoy playing a deck with 25 mountains and 35 variations of hill giant at my local tournament.

Just an fyi:

I had a chat with that listed vendor on Alibaba (my wife and I speak Chinese) and he's already pulling out of this. He was receiving hundreds (almost thousands) of complaints and foul messages daily and he doesn't even know what this game is. These guys create poker cards and just received an order for MTG on a whim, then decided to give it a whirl. They're not even confident in the quality of their fakes (the pics on ebay may look convincing but the final result isn't once you inspect it). They're not (currently) interested in creating perfect fakes, it was just another item to print run and they really don't even know what this game is.

Take that however you want.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Yeah, but there are ppl who want to play with the old cards, but can't afford them. WotC were showing them finger for over a decade and now the situation escalated into printhouses forming a belt all over from Culcutta to Beijing daily vomiting millions of fake cards 24/7 in three-shift operation, no Christmas holiday.

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That's actually far from true. These guys take hour long naps around lunch time and barely devote a fraction of their operation to magic at the moment. And you bet your ass production on the mtg front slows down when Chinese New Year rolls around the corner.