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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
I agree. It felt like everything the Infect player was trying to do was stymied by just having executing our normal gameplan. They typically play one Forest which makes Wasteland live. Maze of Ith forces them to have exactly Vines of Vastwood, which they have only four copies of total. Tabernacle pinches their mana and so does Rishadan Port.
Obviously it's important, as always, to have Exploration or Manabond. Never Punishing Fire in combat and you'll be fine.
After sideboard they have a hard time with Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance.
(Edit: I mean Infect, not Elves, as I had written originally.)
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rivfader
I find Infect quite manageable, because they're vulnerable to almost everything you run. So many nonbasics for wasteland, all creatures within punishable range, no preboard answers to Marit Lage. That doesn't mean it's an easy matchup, they can kill you very quick, but usually they need more resources to do so than you need to hold them off.
Infect pressures much harder than Lands. They tend to close out games by turn 5-6 at the very latest, giving you very little time to set up Loam loops, and without those you just don't have the resources to bleed them dry. It's true that you've got a deck chock-full of relevant cards, but those cards tend to be strongest when recurred with Grove/Loam. Outside of this recursion, however, the decks components are relatively weak, they do very little without Loam + time to set up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rivfader
You can look at the matchup in an opposite way: They need to defensively invest resources (crop rotation, Pendelhaven, pumpspells) to beat Punishing Fire, which won't be spent for the offense. They need Vines of Vastwood to bypass Maze of Ith (don't side them out), so that's another card to cantrip for besides infectguys and pump. If you hold on to crop rotation, you can get Glacial Chasm after they pumped their guy with vines (and hopefully berserk) for an alphastrike (unless they have a (hard)counter as well, besides the setup of an infectguy + lethal pumpspells). I think their best shot of winning is in the first few turns, after that they'll have a hard time punching through manadenial, Pfire, maze/chasm, and Marit Lage lurking around the corner.
You have no consistency without the card advantage of recurring Loams. Using the terms "infect guy" and "pump spells" should showcase why the matchup is so difficult, your answers identify your silver bullet cards that need to be found to deal with 12 creatures and 10 pump spells while powering through soft counters. Redundancy in deck building combined with the power of blue cantrips means that Infect's draws will be more consistent than yours across multiple games. Hoping to draw specific answers for their nonspecific threats means you'll drop a lot of games to simply not having the tools to handle the problem.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Sure Infect pressures harder than Lands, it's a deck that can kill you turn 2 with the perfect hand, versus a control deck (with a combofinish). But you seem to disregard Lands as a slow recursive loamengine, which it (evidently) isn't. Exploration, manabond, crop rotation, gamble, they're all 1 mana cards which make Lands explosive. Lands has 8 1-mana tutors, how is that not consistent?
(Edit:rewrote last part of the post cause it was badly written)
Against Infect, all strategic lines as manadenial, Pfire, Mazes, Tabernacle ... can be effective. And they come back from the graveyard, which they do at a much greater speed and consistency than you suggest and can trade one-for-one over and over (while Pfire/Grove and exploration breaking the symmetry), which Infect cannot, as it is limited to the recources it cantrips together. Keeping infect creatures alive from punishing fire is not that easy, especially with exploration creating lots of mana, and using Invigorate or a Vines to keep them alive makes you loose an offensive card. Beating Maze with Vines works great, but you need to have/cantrip one first, whereas Lands has a very good consistency in finding the land it needs, while holding back a crop rotation for stack interaction that can mess up the Infect combo plan through Vines afterall.
From a Lands player point of view, I like playing the matchup. Not because it is overly favored (I do think we're favored though), but because Infect allows us to fully play our game in all its facets, manadenial and creaturecontrol.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jesture
You have no consistency without the card advantage of recurring Loams. Using the terms "infect guy" and "pump spells" should showcase why the matchup is so difficult, your answers identify your silver bullet cards that need to be found to deal with 12 creatures and 10 pump spells while powering through soft counters. Redundancy in deck building combined with the power of blue cantrips means that Infect's draws will be more consistent than yours across multiple games. Hoping to draw specific answers for their nonspecific threats means you'll drop a lot of games to simply not having the tools to handle the problem.
You're misidentifying the problem. I don't think that Infect is an easy matchup for Lands at all, but you're confusing the reason why. You're suggesting the problem is consistency (which it isn't, since Lands is super consistent) when the actual problem is tempo. Does Lands have the tools necessary to consistently find its answer cards? Sure, it's got eight tutors and four copies of a spell analogous to Ancestral Recall. The issue it, can it find its answers in time against an aggressive deck that can either play like a combo deck that kills on turn two or a tempo deck that whittles down your life total with a million counterspells as backup? Sometimes it can't, and that's why Infect is tough.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gigapatrick
You're misidentifying the problem. I don't think that Infect is an easy matchup for Lands at all, but you're confusing the reason why. You're suggesting the problem is consistency (which it isn't, since Lands is super consistent) when the actual problem is tempo. Does Lands have the tools necessary to consistently find its answer cards? Sure, it's got eight tutors and four copies of a spell analogous to Ancestral Recall. The issue it, can it find its answers in time against an aggressive deck that can either play like a combo deck that kills on turn two or a tempo deck that whittles down your life total with a million counterspells as backup? Sometimes it can't, and that's why Infect is tough.
You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jesture
You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.
I really think that its depends on the pilots skill level, an experienced lands pilot or infect pilot makes a huge difference especially in the non common match ups which lands vs infect is. I have personally noob crushed the hell out of infect but it doesn't mean much.
If you talking about two pilots of high skill levels then it depends on a couple factors like who is on the play, how powerful the opening hands of the respective decks are etc but its probably 55-45 lands. The only reason I say that is Lands as the Lands deck is able to interact at every level of infects gameplan while that is not true for infect.
Also lands can squeeze a win out of an aggressive tempo deck before the game even starts as the deck is built to crush creatures decks. There is some opening hands that you get with lands that are over before the game even starts, its just how long it takes for your opponents to scoop.
additionally I was wrong about seismic assault. I just finished my weekly legacy night with me discarding ten lands form my hand on turn 4 or 5 to kill a death and taxes pilot after I broke a Pithing needle naming assault on turn two. Insane
I
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jesture
You're absolutely right, consistency is relative to the number of turns the game goes on and Lands has a much easier time than many other decks do in digging up relevant cards. I guess a better way to phrase my point is that Lands requires a higher number of specific cards to address Infect's game plan on multiple levels. So in that regard it's just a matter of whether the aggressive Tempo deck can squeeze out a win before the control deck gets a hard lock in place (your words in different words). I think we're on the same page here, but as a related question what would you put as the win percentages for this matchup? I've heard it from as far as 70/30 for Lands to 60/40 for Infect, but I feel the real matchup is much more moderate, something like 55/45 Infect.
Yeah, 55/45 Infect seems reasonable. Maybe even a little more in Infect's favor. I know I've gotten crushed by it pretty hard.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gigapatrick
Yeah, 55/45 Infect seems reasonable. Maybe even a little more in Infect's favor. I know I've gotten crushed by it pretty hard.
Infect blows you out, or else it usually loses as Lands will take over the game.
Blowing you out with protection requires quite some resources, and they will have problems to build up recources (lands, infecters, growspells) if you fend them off, while Lands builds up answers by cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire and has a combo of its own.
I have more wins than losses versus Infect and consider Lands a bit favored, because, as stated above, Lands can interact with all of Infects gameplan.
Basicly our gameplan is to avoid 12 infecters from connecting combatdamage.
All their infecters can be killed by Punishing Fire, and you have gamble to get it or crop rotation to get Grove of the Burnwillows.
All their attacks can be stopped by maze of Ith (although Vines of Vastwood is an answer to maze)
An early comboblowout can be stopped by Glacial Chasm.
Wasteland destroys 4 of their infect-resources.
We have crop rotation (and slower dredges) to find these.
They run about 10 spells to make their infecter grow, if you manage to handle their infecters, these are 10 spells that do nothing on their own.
Besides dealing with the infecters, which is our basic gameplan, they are soft to wasteland.
They don't need much manaresources, so it's best to focus on their Infecters.
But landdestruction and creaturecontrol tends to merge anyways with this deck.
It's a tempo-deck, and like other tempodecks, having exploration to keep up will make a huge difference.
This is written from the point of view of Lands.
It might be interesting to read how an Infectplayer perceives things.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ingo
Infect blows you out, or else it usually loses as Lands will take over the game.
Blowing you out with protection requires quite some resources, and they will have problems to build up recources (lands, infecters, growspells) if you fend them off, while Lands builds up answers by cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire and has a combo of its own.
I have more wins than losses versus Infect and consider Lands a bit favored, because, as stated above, Lands can interact with all of Infects gameplan.
Basicly our gameplan is to avoid 12 infecters from connecting combatdamage.
All their infecters can be killed by Punishing Fire, and you have gamble to get it or crop rotation to get Grove of the Burnwillows.
All their attacks can be stopped by maze of Ith (although Vines of Vastwood is an answer to maze)
An early comboblowout can be stopped by Glacial Chasm.
Wasteland destroys 4 of their infect-resources.
We have crop rotation (and slower dredges) to find these.
They run about 10 spells to make their infecter grow, if you manage to handle their infecters, these are 10 spells that do nothing on their own.
Besides dealing with the infecters, which is our basic gameplan, they are soft to wasteland.
They don't need much manaresources, so it's best to focus on their Infecters.
But landdestruction and creaturecontrol tends to merge anyways with this deck.
It's a tempo-deck, and like other tempodecks, having exploration to keep up will make a huge difference.
This is written from the point of view of Lands.
It might be interesting to read how an Infectplayer perceives things.
I'm rather against analyzing match-ups in the "A accounts for B" way, as it tends to skew perspective of the matchup over several games.
Example: Imagine you have a Punishing Fire, so you're now searching for a Grove in order to set up the soft lock. Cards in stock Infect list that would interact with this plan are:
Every Counter Spell (Daze, FoW, Pierce)
Most Pump Spells (Invigorate, Vines, Become Immense)
Crop Rotation (Pendelhaven, Wasteland)
Total is about 20 cards, give or take per list
As an example, Punishing Fire does 2 damage and every creature in infect has 1 toughness, so it seems like a catch-all answer for threats. But that card is a 4 of in your deck, and you need a pretty strong hand (engine card + Grove) otherwise in order to Gamble for it. In the face of G1 soft counters (Daze, Pierce), Pendelhaven, Crop Rotation to fetch Pendlehaven, and 10-ish pump spells, how likely are you to set up a turn that lets you Punishing Fire a creature out? You'd need until about turn 4 or 5 in order to set up a turn where you can Punishing Fire twice, excluding any soft counters they might have. Even if they're using their pump spells in a purely defensive manner, Infect is still poised to win 5 or so attacks.
This is just a small snippet on Punishing Fire, but what it comes down to is Infect's tools are more versatile. Counterspells are just tools to tempo Lands out, generally for time-walking Loam plays or stopping Crop Rotation in its tracks. Vines of Vastwood is an All-Star, as it addresses Maze, Punishing Fire, and Wasteland in some situations. Crop Rotation does work in this matchup, doing double duty to both Waste out problem Lands and to fetch up Pendelhaven to fight Punishing Fire (also fuels delve, but that's more of a secondary benefit). In short, almost every card in Infect has multiple uses in the matchup while the inverse isn't true. This in conjunction with Infect's speed means that Lands generally has 4-5 turns in order to sculpt a hand with several specific answers, while Infect consistently has more versatile cards that can deal with multiple plans of attack from Lands.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Infect is a combo-deck, so I tend to stick to the following:
+4 Sphere, -4 Port.
+1 (or 2) Assault, -1 Forest.
Everything you do, will likely draw counters. Exploration? Kills soft counters, bad. Loam? Manadenial, bad. P-Fire? Kills creatures, bad. Assault? Kills in general, bad.
Still, it's a hard MU, because they are basically a combo-deck on legs.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jesture
I'm rather against analyzing match-ups in the "A accounts for B" way, as it tends to skew perspective of the matchup over several games.
... In short, almost every card in Infect has multiple uses in the matchup while the inverse isn't true. This in conjunction with Infect's speed means that Lands generally has 4-5 turns in order to sculpt a hand with several specific answers, while Infect consistently has more versatile cards that can deal with multiple plans of attack from Lands.
You are right about disregarding an analysis from A to B, games are much more complex than that. You have listed how a Punishing Fire can be answered in about 20 ways. Ofcourse this argumentation can reversely be used versus an infected attacker:
3x maze + 4x crop rotation to get it.
4x punishing Fire + 4x gamble to get it.
4x Grove of the Burnwillows to retrieve the Punishing Fire and play it again, and 4x crop rotation to get the Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Life from the Loam to blindflip into any of these pieces (preferably backed up by exploration).
And 4x crop rotation, as a final backup, to get Glacial Chasm, blanking a comboattack.
This listing is also simplistic (but I think i've beaten you in having listed more than 20 cards :smile:), and you won't be convinced ofcourse, as I'm not convinced by yours.
You have too much faith in the counterspell package, which is less elaborate than for example RUG Delver. R/G Lands was made to deal with the fastness of such tempodecks, with gamble and croprotation as one-manatutors getting under softcounters, especially with exploration or Mox Diamond accelerating Lands' manasources. Softcounters can be a Timewalk, but versus 1-manatutors and an accelerated manabase, they're also often dead cards. Softcounters also trade one-for-one, and Punishing Fire comes back every turn with 2 mana and a Grove. RG Lands exploits Punishing Fire to the fullest, having gamble to get it, crop rotation to get Grove, and mana acceleration to pay for it.
You also listed growspells (Invigorate, Vines, Become Immense will need time to cast) to protect the infecters. The Punishing Fire might as well have been a Thoughtseize here stripping you of a valuable combocard, trading you down one for one. That's the equivalent of 4 singular attacks (if a softcounter can be perceived as a Timewalk, then Lands is timewalking here as well). The next turn though, Punishing Fire can come back for another shot. How many times can you protect your infecter with growspells, and still set up a succesful attack with multiple poisoncounters, through a returning Punishing Fire? Pendelhaven serves as protection, but this card is up against wasteland, loam and exploration, and so are the other nonbasic lands Infect runs.
Maze of Ith is a problem as well, as it stops every infecter from connecting. Vines will guide an infecter past the Maze, but if you don't have them, Maze halts any of your attacks, no matter how many counters or other resources you have in hand. Crop rotation is a virtual Maze 4-7, while Vines is usually a 3-off with a limited cantrip package (4 brainstorm and a ponder?) to find them. That's a rather low amount of cantrips and combined with 10 growspells that do nothing on their own, this is less consistent than most bluebased decks usually are. Then again, Infect also runs the lone maindeck crop rotation which could get the single wasteland.
Getting a Glacial Chasm with crop rotation is a very efficient response to an infected comboattack. Multiple growspells are spent, poison counters dodged, and the price paid (crop rotation and a sacced land) is returned through the cardadvantage of Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire. Infects growspells though are gone forgood, and it will take time to cantrip into business again. You can argue that the crop rotation can be countered, but you would probably need a Force of Will, as a 1mana croprotation is hard to softcounter. Holding back a crop rotation for a card like Chasm also potentially gets one of the missing Depths - Stage combopieces. Just like Infect crop rotates EOT for Inkmoth Nexus, Marit Lage pops up in the same way. Infect has no maindeck way to deal with the token, and in the fastest circumstances it attacks turn 3 (disregarding a perfect manabond hand).
You overestimate Infects efficiency by basing it on superb infect hands, where you have an ideal cardmix of infecters, lands, growspells, cantrips and superefficient softcounters (essentially timewalking the opponent), while you depict Lands as a slow deck needing 4/5 turns to get any form of defense online. That's not a realistic portret of the matchup. I do not underestimate the versatility, consistency and fastness of Infect (I respect it as it is also an original and powerful concept, refreshing in a cantrip Legacy scene stitching staplecards together). I do think though you underestimate Lands ability to deal with Infect, as R/G Lands is basically designed to deal with this kind of (small creatures, nonbasic manabase) deck.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds
What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chatto
Infect is a combo-deck, so I tend to stick to the following:
+4 Sphere, -4 Port.
+1 (or 2) Assault, -1 Forest.
Everything you do, will likely draw counters. Exploration? Kills soft counters, bad. Loam? Manadenial, bad. P-Fire? Kills creatures, bad. Assault? Kills in general, bad.
Still, it's a hard MU, because they are basically a combo-deck on legs.
I would not side out all of the ports. They are maze of iths for Inkmoth Nexuses and make the overall mana denial plan better. Instead, I'd go with taking out 1 port, 1 thicket, 1 karakas, 1 bog or maybe 1 stage. Also i'd think about siding Chalice, because it turns off 3/4th of the infect's spells.
Overall about the matchup in my vision: infect's best line is a well prepared 1 turn kill (not to confuse with a first turn kill). This case is a hard day for lands. If the game goes to mid/late stage, than infect will soon run out of cards, due to recurrable fires, mazes, etc. The practical question is, does the infect player realize that or not.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds
What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.
Seems like a great little video. It would be a good intro for anyone who has no idea what the deck is trying to do and just wants a quick overview.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Just went looking to see if there was any new vids online after this last weekend. Turns out yes, there is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLkAho0u4Ds
What are peoples view on this? I am going to ask GM if I can add it to the opening post.
It's a nice vid, just 1 comment, somewhere there's mentioned Dark Depths can be stifled. It can, but it makes no difference as it will trigger again immediatly.
Seismic Assault is described as a sidecard versus control featuring StP. I side it though against every deck giving me enough time (midrange - control), basically replacing manabond. It cheats with loam just like manabond does, exchanging speed for a mid- lategame blowout. It has also come in handy for me versus cards that shut of a line of play, like extraction on Depths/Pfire, or Meddling Mage on PFire, as another killcondition and a way to control troublesome creatures (like Knight of the Reliquary).
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
I always thought of assault as being at its strongest when Blood Moon was kicking round. The times I have run it I have found its CMC prohibitive. It's not impossible to cast but it is almost always hard to cast it fast. It is the reason I cut it.
I understand it has its other uses but far too often I find I would just rather have Primeval Titan in its place. If I was going into a large event though, I would take the anti Moon tec.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I always thought of assault as being at its strongest when Blood Moon was kicking round. The times I have run it I have found its CMC prohibitive. It's not impossible to cast but it is almost always hard to cast it fast. It is the reason I cut it.
I understand it has its other uses but far too often I find I would just rather have Primeval Titan in its place. If I was going into a large event though, I would take the anti Moon tec.
Primeval Titan IS the anti-Moon tech. Fetch your Forest and use your Moxes to cast P-time to bide your time until you draw a Krosan Grip.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
@ barcode: then why do all the last lists doing good only pack Seismic Assault? It also doesn't make sense seeing Prime-time as Anti-moon tech: you need to go through a lot of hoops getting him on the table, whereas Assault gets pretty easy cast. Only fetch your Forest to cast Loam and voilą!
Don't get me wrong, I love Prime-time and almost always pack one in my SB, but stating it's Anti-Moon tech is something I disagree with.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Double post, but I found this article on Legit MTG I would like share. I'm not sold on everything he writes, but it's a good, pretty basic, straightforward article, nevertheless.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
With the scores as they are, we are set to be a DTB this month.
Also that write up is not too bad. What it shows me though is the deck is gaining respect. People are paying attention, people are looking for information, people are taking lands seriously. While the Combo build is the more common, I am expecting an uptake in Control builds too making for an interesting cross pollination of ideas and builds. The hybrid build I think will have its own fans too. (Like myself) This is exciting.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
So I played in a mini tournament and during the super fun games some weird question occurred.
Round 1 vs TES: 2-0
Game 1 he opened with gemstonemine into ponder. I played taiga, exploration, wasteland. Next turn wastelock then early combo!
Game 2 he couldn't play through 2 spheres and again early token!
TES has a horrible manabase!
Round 2 Belcher 2-0
Game 1 he mulled to 5 played landgrant and revealed only fast-mana, I go for an early token and connect.
Game 2 I sided out the mazes and the pfires. He played a turn 1 belcher but was 1 mana short to activate. I played taiga. Next turn he draw tinderwall and activated belcher. I respond with crop rotation on chasm. Eventually I got a chasmlock.
So I had multiple stages out (one on chasm). What exactly happens if I stage the stage(that is chasm)?
Ok the game goes on for a while and I played some spheres and stuff but I couldn't find a Ddephts. Eventually I found it but than I realised, if I want to attack with my token, I had to get rid of my chasm and he can belcher me. I had about 30 cards in my library milled my lone pithing needle and sided out all Pfires :(
Is it considered stalling if I know I cant win this game and continue to play to survive as long as possible?
Since I didn't care I just go for it and waste my chasm and attacked. He didn't belcher me. After the match I asked him why, he said he is new to legacy and didn't know what's going on the whole time...
Round 3 vs infect: 1-2
Game 1: Turn 1 token gg.
Game 2 and 3: I had all the answers but a very well timed FoW from my opponent always pushed through the last infecter!
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
A Stage that has copied a land becomes that land, if you want to Stage targeting a Stage it will become whatever that Stage is. (Say that nine times fast.)
In short, you can copy a Stage that has copied a Chasm because as far as the game state is concerned, that Stage IS a Chasm with Stages ability attached.
On the stalling question. No, that's fine. If you keep updating the game state and you do it at a reasonable clip, your fine.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Question; what is the general consensus about Tranquil Thicket vs. Horizon Canopy? I don't see many lists packing Canopy, but it could come in handy.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chatto
I played Horizon Canopy for a while because it could draw a card, and be fetched by crop rotation. But I've never rotated for it, and never used it in some loam shenanigan, so it came down on being a land just costing life. I've cut it for the fourth fetchland, still running 2 tranquil thickets.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
I like it and run a 1/1 split. I am a fan of the way it interacts with Manabond and while it might hurt on those times where you have to use it for mana, I put a premium on initial mana sources and thus likely rate it higher than most would.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rivfader
I played Horizon Canopy for a while because it could draw a card, and be fetched by crop rotation. But I've never rotated for it, and never used it in some loam shenanigan, so it came down on being a land just costing life. I've cut it for the fourth fetchland, still running 2 tranquil thickets.
But that life gives you access to a colored mana, which I think is huge. I'm very pleased to draw one Thicket, but the second one sometimes feels 'useless'. Even if I would play it as a manasource, it just feels too slow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I like it and run a 1/1 split. I am a fan of the way it interacts with Manabond and while it might hurt on those times where you have to use it for mana, I put a premium on initial mana sources and thus likely rate it higher than most would.
My thought exactly, I will try this 1/1 split.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
If you side out Manabond, it's also worth thinking about siding out the Canopy too. Especially if you are siding in utility lands.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Recently I've been testing lands against a good player with miracles and the result worried me. It was around 25-75 preboard and the same! after board. I sided 9 cards: 4 Krosan Grip; 1 Choke; 1 Titan; 1 Assault; 1 Chalice; 1 Dark Depths. Miracles - classic build, sided in 1 EE; 1 Desinchant; 2 RIP. Although he knew my deck and knew what he should not do, still it shakes me a little bit. Perhaps it is the first time I played against a decent miracles player, because I did not have such big problems previously. What is your experience in general pre and after board?
I am going to test Worm Harvest main or SB and more chokes in SB. Worms are difficult to counter with balance because it requires finding 1 of 4 FoWs on top. Also you can dredge aggressivly in Game1 until you dredge into Harvest and after that just draw cards and recast it every turn until your opponent runs out of Terminus (or kills you earlier with Angels). Or Gamble into Harvest as soon as you recognize Miracles on that side of the table. Although Worms might be good only in game 1 because of RIP. Thoughts?
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
I can vouch for worm harvest at least coming from control lands. Smokestack and worm harvest are both really annoying for them to deal with and I definitely lean on them in that matchup.
Are you running ghost quarter? I still aggressively go after their white sources and it always seems to be a good way to go. I've seen it cut from a lot of RG lists though.
How did you side cards out?
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
supremePINEAPPLE
I can vouch for worm harvest at least coming from control lands. Smokestack and worm harvest are both really annoying for them to deal with and I definitely lean on them in that matchup.
Are you running ghost quarter? I still aggressively go after their white sources and it always seems to be a good way to go. I've seen it cut from a lot of RG lists though.
How did you side cards out?
I believe the matchup is easier for RUG lands also because of EE+Academy Ruins. Unfortunately in RG lands we can't run silver bullet artifacts like EE and Smokestack without splashing in blue. I do run Ghost Quarter, yes. Always did =) But he was not fetching for a single white source until establishing Top+CB and the 2cmc on top, unless he needed to stp Marite Lage. Very tight and cautious play.
My side outs: Karakas, 1 Punishing Fire, Bojuka Bog, 2 Manabond, 2 Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Yeah it sounds like he knew exactly how to play it out and I think you boarded out great. Definitely not the most encouraging results. The counter-top lock on 2 was something I could never figure out with RG and it sounds like he was correctly prioritizing it. Having to draw a grip and hope he isn't floating a wear // tear feels like it's just playing into their game.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
I think if I was going to be playing Lands in a Meta with Miracles I would pick RUG a my deck choice. If I was set on staying RG I would be looking at some number of Choke and Crucible.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
door
Recently I've been testing lands against a good player with miracles and the result worried me.
I also think it's not an easy matchup. I reserve 4 combo-sideboardslots for cards that help in the Miracles matchup as well, which is a mix of either pithing needle, choke or chalice of the void. Last time it was 4x chalice, this time 2x chalice, 1 choke, 1 slaughtergames, next time probably 2 chalice and 2x choke. Chalice does good work, denying cantrips and top on one end, and dodging swords on the other.
Played a 52-person tournament today, went 12th with 4-2 (Infect 1-2, Elves 2-1, Reanimator 2-0, Omnitell 1-2, Belcher 2-0, Pox 2-0).
I once had a perfect combohand in manabond, mox diamond, Stage, Depths and three lands (don't think I ever had that before). Looked like an easy win versus omnitell on the play, but alas, Force of Will decided differently ...
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
supremePINEAPPLE
Yeah it sounds like he knew exactly how to play it out and I think you boarded out great. Definitely not the most encouraging results. The counter-top lock on 2 was something I could never figure out with RG and it sounds like he was correctly prioritizing it. Having to draw a grip and hope he isn't floating a wear // tear feels like it's just playing into their game.
Wear and tear doesn't counter a k grip. When used for counterbalance it's either a 1 or 2. The only time it's a 3 drop is if fused and on the stack.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Yeah wasn't thinking there. Just a commonly floated spell for everything else.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I think if I was going to be playing Lands in a Meta with Miracles I would pick RUG a my deck choice. If I was set on staying RG I would be looking at some number of Choke and Crucible.
After some time of piloting RG Lands RUG seems to be so much slower, that I don't feel returning to it apart of the metagame. Crucible is another card I was looking at. Would you play it in main or sideboard? Would you adjust your game plan somehow with the addition of Crucible?
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Crucible would go in the side me thinks. I would play it with one of the two Ruins so I could grab it and likely only run the one. This has been in the back of my mind for a while now since locally I have seen an uptick in the amount of Surgical's played.
I think the strongest option though is Choke, Needle and Grip. Load up on the tried and true before you play with the new.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Dice_Box, pmed you with a small primer update.
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Guys, I am thinking about taking this deck to GP Lille, but the recent succes of Omnitell makes me wonder if this is going to be a good choice.
Sooo... My question is do we have a chance against Omnitell? If so, how do we board?
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Re: [Deck] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
door
Dice_Box, pmed you with a small primer update.
Only just saw this post, the update is done, working on the Artifact section now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chatto
Guys, I am thinking about taking this deck to GP Lille, but the recent succes of Omnitell makes me wonder if this is going to be a good choice.
Sooo... My question is do we have a chance against Omnitell? If so, how do we board?
This is the Match I hate the most, worst part, it's played locally by a pair of fairly competent players... Sigh.
Running my non Artifact list, I would say the match is winnable, not great though but winnable thanks to two Choke I run in the side.
Out:
Ghost Quarter
Tabernacle
Wasteland (I only remove 2, only if you do not have choke)
Maze of Ith
Punishing Fire
In:
All your Grips.
Chalice
Some Spheres
Choke if you have it
Bog (They will Delve a lot)
Plan:
If you have a Port in hand when you start, Gamble for Choke NOT Loam. (Play the Port before you do this of course)
Mull anything that is not either Winning or laying down heavy Disruption in the first two turns. (Three if you must hold a hand)
Port is the most important card in your main bar none.
If they are using Ant's as a kill, keep Chasm in the main.
Wasteland should stay in the main if you are running Choke as a way to force Fetch cracks. Also stops SOL lands out of the board. If you are not running Choke, take 2 out.
Waste your own Bog often, if they have five cards in the Grave, wipe it clean.
Karakas will not win you many games here, but every so often it will, keep it in. (If it saves you one in 20 games, take that 5% and run with it)
Not sure if I missed anything, that's what comes straight to mind. How common a match is Omni in the EU anyway?
