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This seems stupid. If the mana version of dredge has no outs for hate cards then the plan of "Hardcast Golgari Thug and Narcomeba, attack opponent with them" barely ever works. I have no idea why you would want to deliberately make this your plan B in postboard games. Especially because "until they land their hate card" typically only gives you 2 turns maximumQuote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
With 15 lands, all Wasteland-able (enough opponents forget to take out their Wastelands when SB'ing against you), your chances of landing enough lands to cast anything are next to none. In the best case you hardcast a Shambling Shell, while being 3+ turns behind on Delver-beats. Great plan.
Congrats to Dan for his 5th place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=86602
Cool build. I'm hoping for a report, especially when it comes to the performance of the Arbors and the SB.
Curious about kelpie over rider but with only 2 Shoal in side Maybe it s ok
Pros: Less sensitive to Stifle, works better with the aggro plan, creates a snowball-effect (hence the MB Zealot)
Cons: Doesn't let you win the same turn, so it's slower
My guess is it's a good build for a slow and grindy meta. It achieves the win using less resources/commitment then the full combo build and the snowball effect lets you break through your opponents' disruption more easily.
Interesting, you're writing: MB Zealot, but at the same time you're writing: doesn't win on the same turn.
It can win with quite some tokens + recurred Zealot, or with Flayer, I suppose.
Dread Return on a River Kelpie means dredging once. Casting a Cabal Therapy then means dredging another time, doing it with River Kelpie means dredging already 3 times. I'm not sure if I'd add Zealot as a second plan, but I enjoy the idea of having a bit of green, a bit of blue. I feel like it loses explosiveness a bit too much though (going explosiveness but fragility Spy -> blue -> greenblue -> green). Or am I missing something with the Ghasts here?
Yup. Selkie mainly helps speed up building up your board position to a point where after a couple of turns you're able to Therapy 2/3 times before firing a single DR again to reanimate Zealot. Hence the not the same turn bit. Especially G2 & G3 it's rather likely you can't rely on your Bridges so the Ichorids/Nether Shadows will have to do the heavy lifting during those games. Selkie helps you power those out more quickly (whilst being less of a red flag then when you're targeting a Balustrade Spy/Griselbrand/Whirlpool Rider with your DR).Quote:
Originally Posted by Daize
The combo works often enough G1, but G2 and G3 tend to be a lot more grindy and it's much more important to outmaneuver your opponent and keep sneaking in some beats wherever you can. Hence the need to trick your opponent into thinking "Ok, I can let this DR resolve". G2/G3 I like to DR Chancellors quite often and just proceed to smash face with those. Opponents like to keep their counters for when you target something that flips your library and forget that a 5/6 flyer can present a nice clock as well.
Hey everyone. That was me with the list at the Indy PIQ. Thanks for the congrats.
Round 1 vs AD Nauseam
Game one the guy just kind of fizzles after I have already hit him with a couple ichorids.
Game two I actually lose to past in flames.
Game three I shoal his infernal tutor and get there.
Round 2 vs Sultai Delver
Game one he casts DRS on turn one after fetching for an Underground Sea. I probe him my turn one to see if there is a green source for him to eat my troll that I want to discard this turn. No green source in hand but he has a ponder, meanwhile i have no street wraith nor phantasmagorian to get around it. I discard troll, he draws and casts ponder and shuffles. I cross my fingers, he top decks a verdant catacombs, then goes on to cast two more DRS in the next three turns. I lose.
Game two I have street wraith in hand and he leads with DRS once again. I cycle my wraith when he activates DRS on his turn two and I hit a Troll and a narcomoeba, this game turns out to be quite grindy with his DRS but I eventually get there with some 2/2 zombies!
Game three he plays a delver on turn one and never flips it, I counter a Cage with shoal pitching probe then I tear into his hand with therapy taking his goyf and a Lily. I make some zombies and he plays another cage but I dredge some dakmor salvages to play stinkweed imp from my hand. Zombies and Imp get there.
Round 3 vs Thopter Sword (I believe it was this list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1236702
Game one he leads with city of traitors, mox opal, chalice for 0, dimir signet, chalice for one. I discard and cycle a wraith to get going. He plays an ensnaring bridge so now I'm for sure killing with Flayer. He also plays a tezzeret the next turn finding thopter foundy. I combo off next turn.
Game two He plays lodestone golem on turns two and three. I lose.
Game three I keep a hand with dryad arbor and natures's claim. I chose to draw this game clearly. He slams a leyline of the void an passes, I draw a force of will to go with my narco in hand. I play dryad arbor and pass, he plays a second land and passes back, I natures claim and pass back, he plays nothing and passes back I force something eventually and Combo off with kelpie and flayer.
Round 4 vs rug delver
Game one he flips delver on turn two an stifles a narco and an ichorid slowing me down. I end up comboing with flayer.
Game two he kills me with a couple delvers and by exiling some bridges.
Game three he sees a couple delvers and I cabal therapy my way to flayering him.
Round 5 vs Storm
Game one He gets pretty unlucky and I aggro him out with ichorids.
Game two I have a hand with street wraith, narco, force, force, troll, x, y. He probes me to see whats happening. then casts cabal therapy. I cycle street wraith drawing shoal. I counter the therapy with force pitching narco. I start dredging. He then chains a narco back to my hand before main phase one. Then surgicals my force of wills, seeing my shoal plus narco. I use it to counter an infernal tutor and get there.
Round 6 vs Death and Taxes. (I had to play this matchup because i got paired down to an X-0-1, i was less than thrilled to see D&T in this scenario)
Game one He leads with plains aether vial, I sigh. I end up getting there by playing a dakmor salvage to get my bloodghasts back and dread return a dryad arbor to make a bunch of zombies a couple of times.
Game two he plays plains and passes. I discard troll and pass. He plays spirit of the labyrinth and passes. I find cabal his hand naming STP and hit two of them. He does nothing and passes back, then EOT enlightened tutor for RIP. I force the rip and just start to amass tokens. he plays thalia and a jitte. Attacks with thalia i block with 6 tokens. he kills one of them and leaves his jitte with two counters and puts it on the Spirit. He exiles some bridges when I start to combo but its too late since i have bloodghast recursion and all the tokens I combo with flayer.
Round 7 ID
Top 8
I lose to burn in 3 games. Game one I get there with a bunch of tokens and bloodghast in much the same manner as against D&T. Games two and three my dredges were just terrible and he was able to kill me with multiple swiftspears. :p
Sorry if some of the match recollections seem a bit scarce, I only had about 5 hours of sleep and then drove a few hours before playing this PIQ so please forgive me.
More about the deck: RiverGhast
So this version i don't actually call manaless because of the 10 lands in the 75. Main board you have access to three more "free" creatures than a traditional manaless build. I have played the manaless balustrade spy version before but I was tired of losing to Thalia... a 2/1 for two. So I decided to brew this little list up. There are many different lines of play in this deck. It goes very deep and is very grindy sometimes. River Kelpie, in my testing, fits in the list better than whirlpool rider would for a couple reasons. There was a fair amount of time that I had dumped my whole hand to a phantasmagorian and then animated a rider and only had a few cards in hand which led to me not dredging near enough of my deck and leaving me to pass the turn back and die. River Kelpie, 90 percent of the time I feel like, gets me there. Upon reanimation the best case scenario is to have some amount of bloodghasts in the yard. At this point you can use the kelpie ETB trigger to dredge back a salvage, or maybe you just have a land in hand. After dredging a couple times, more than likely you've found another spell to cast from the GY or some amount of Narcos coming into play to allow for more river kelpie triggers and dredging, furthermore, river kelpie has persist so if you have a couple of bridges and you sac the kelpie, you are back up to three guys and you get to dredge again when kelpie comes back. If you already have some other creatures to flashback some spells, you probably want to leave the kelpie alone, in case you actually need to use it to flashback some spells after some more dredging. The most important thing to remember about Kelpie is that the trigger is a must. Because of this, you must be aware of your library card count. You can dredge down to two cards left if you have a kelpie that has not persisted. You must then use the kelpie as part of both of your dread returns to win the game. the first one will have the kelpie come back into play, and you draw a card, and bringing the flayer back and drawing a card, then sacing the kelpie to another dread return on the grave troll with no cards in library. Alternatively, in the two cards left scenario, you can reanimate a flame-kin and attack with zero cards in library. Most of my favorite lines of play in this deck involve bloodghast and dryad arbor. Whether its being able to discard bloodghasts to a phantasmagorian and suprising to your opponent have three creatures when you play your dryad arbor to go off on your turn two, or reanimating a dryad arbor to bring back some ghasts and getting a bunch of kelpie triggers or making a bunch of tokens a couple times in a turn. The lands in this list as I previously mentioned give you more game against thalia and daze, as well as sometimes allowing you to cast a creature from your hand when necessary. There was a match I played months ago where I won against RUG delver by casting two Stinkweeds and an ichorid from my hand to get there in the face of a GD Cage. The sideboard is pretty tuned i think. I understand that people run whirlpool rider to be able to pitch it to a shoal to dodge a RIP. Alternatively, they are still in the same boat against Cage and without any green, are completely dead to Leyline. With this sideboard we have ways to deal with these menacing cards before or after resolution. Certainly no one wants a RIP to ever resolve, but if they do, with claim we still have a chance. The counterspells in the board also take your matchup against ad nauseam , from terrible to fine. I've always had some amount of mindbreak trap in the SB, but cabal therapy is just too good for it to get there all the time. I saw that someone had mentioned before this post that I couldn't win on the same turn that I reanimate. That is false, like I said, reanimating kelpie in conjuction with the multiple ways to trigger it, almost always leads to a win the same turn... as early as your turn two. I truly believe this version is much more resilient and just as, or more, explosive than regular manaless, while having the ability to grind away if thats what it comes to.
really interesting readings i'll give your version a try ^^ plus it's full foilable :cool:
what's your usual in and out ? i saw you side in force against dnt but did you side forest claims too ?
Hey Dan, thanks for the report and congrats again for the high placing! I just wanted to ask how you sideboarded and what justified those decisions for the matchups.
I would be more than happy to go over some sideboard plans, I am currently at work so I will post in the next few hours. Sideboarding with this deck is very much an art instead of the usual "This is the exact sideboard plan for this X matchup". Thanks for the interest my friends, it makes me happy to see anyone is interested in my brew!!!!!
I'm foiling mine out currently! and yes I brought in everything except the mindbreaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
I'm still somewhat new to the world of manaless dredge, so the only real decks that I got to see in action and do well were landless builds that made top 8's in 2013-14 that were purely flayer/balustrade plan. The primer obviously included River Kelpie as a good card to use, but I was never able to conceptualize its power level when not many decks revolved around its ability. Your build obviously has some unique choices with the Dakmor Salvages, so I'm very intrigued by this build.
Haha I feel exactly like that, sideboarding being "an art". But there's got to be rationale behind it. So try to think what your reasoning was, then going by that reasoning let's see if it makes sense (or other choices would be more optimal)!Quote:
Originally Posted by JTMSFTW
Hey there, thank you for the report and explanation about the build. I'm very much intrigued by it. Wonderful work and out of the box thinking!Quote:
Originally Posted by JTMSFTW
And my apologies for missing the DR Selkie -> dredge & drop Dakmor -> recur Bloodghasts -> ??? -> profit-line :smile:.
Kelpie+ghast+salvage is really decent target after all ^^
did you faced Lands or 12 posts already with your list ? i find this 2 MUs really difficult for manaless/riverghast
I've seen the light on my 15 land sideboard. I might as well just run 15 Trolls. I tried it because I was sick of feeling so powerless against hate. I wanted to to convert to something that could just ignore the hate. I suspected it would be bad, and now I know for sure! I'm currently fiddling with the blue cards.
thanks for the report! can't wait for the sbding details and rationale :)
Wow. A deck that can cast natures claim and force....let's continue the conversation. A bit grinder than I like but I'm totally interested in testing this deck.
Im gonna play the "RiverGhast Dredge" on the Scandinavian Open on sunday and wonder if u have some SB-idees. Played yesterday against D&T and STRAX and 5-0-1.Quote:
Originally Posted by JTMSFTW
River Kelpie, Dread Return a Dryad Arbor or landfall on Bloodghast (My card says Der Blutschaudere :wink:) are just so much better what i thought!
I'm just a bit confused. It seems like we went from an enabler pur sang (dread return into dredge 3+) to a potential enabler (dredge 1, then the opponent can respond, already need to have another sac outlet online in the gy, or bloodghast + land in hand or salvage in gy)...
Say in a bad case scenario, 3 cards in hand due to Phantasmagorian, whirlpool rider dredges 3 unconditionally. Even with 2 bloodghasts and a land to drop, you won't even pass that bad whirlpool rider scenario (that turn), let alone the worse disrupting shoal interaction..
It seems fringe, but it needs more to set up the thing... That's supposed to set you up! Or am I missing something here?
Edit: the scenario you're describing potentially gives you (kelpie, kelpie (DR sac), dread return, arbor, 2 blood ghast) 6 dredges. but you need 1 Dread Return, 1 arbor, and 2 ghasts more than a whirlpool rider for that to happen. Having the 3 creatures in play is nice, but you just wasted 1 of your 4 dread returns to make that happen (for a 1/1, and 2 2/1s, once you've got dread return online that's not that hard to get). wasting the DR is huge! And I'm not even talking about a comparison with Spy, or grisel.
The more I think about it, the worse it gets :D. It may just work well because the synergy is just amazing in this deck, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.
Dakmor dredges 2, not 1.
It also allows you to create a couple of creatures on your turn whenever you need them. It makes it easier to set up the combo turn b/c you have more recurring critters.
He is obviously not talking about Dakmor Salvage. It is about the guaranteed dredges you get out of Kelpie as opposed to the potential dredges given the setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The part with dredge 3+ isn't about Golgari Thug and friends neither.
Best regards,
Hey JTMSFTW can you show us how to sb?
http://imgur.com/zJIWkny
g3 against tinfins ^^
riverghast is more grindy but it's good too
siding is a bit rough
RE: *Riverghast*Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
Not a big fan of the green splash here, as the chance of getting both a claim & the green mana in your intial 8 is fairly minute.
I'm currently working on a version that does incorporate the RiverGhast package, but forfeits the Arbors (so it's pretty much the standard Spy build where Spy = Selkie, Chancellor of the Annex = Bloodghast and Shambling Shell = Dakmor Salvage). I'm set to run it in a tournament july 25th. I'll let you know how it works out.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
I'm a bit confused with the "river-ghast" tech. I understand it's a bit more grindy against say extractions and removal. Most often my wins come from returning a spy for the combo kill, I'm not sure I want my deck to be any slower than it already is. And I agree with slave, green mana plus claim is a bit of a pipe dream in your opening seven. This deck is consistent due to the quality of cards that have effects in the graveyard, the reason why I stopped playing led dredge was due to how often so much of my yard was filled with useless shit. Finally, switching a dredger with a lower dredge count bothers me a bit, I always want to dredge as much as possible. I think it's an interesting brew, I just want to see how the deck plays to its strengths and weaknesses.
LOL, I still play Manaless (instead of LED-dredge) for the same reason. LED-Dredge is faster of course, but against either blue or black decks it's easier to hate out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
I think I might give it a go, just without the green bit, and concentrate on a blue version and give us a better sideboard.
Kelpie is great with Ghasts and Ickys, but being 5-cmc hurts the counter plan VS Rider @ 2cmc.
Think I'm gonna experiment here and see where it goes... kinda feel like a change of pace anyway!
Hi guys, last thursday i played a local 4 round at my shop and went 3-1 and made top. We all split for prizes. But i have a small report of what i can remember. Im playing the same Blue list thats in the first post:
Round 1 - Food Chain (2-0)
G1: He goes t1 Noble Hierarchic, and goes t2 DRS. He said he might have heard i was on Dredge and he would have t1 DRS if he was sure. I turn 2 therapy after a git probe and he reveals a bunch of lands, a food chain, and a dig. I took the dig by mistake trying to lock him with just a food chain, which is a lot riskier. It worked, but at any point he had the chain online and could have drew everything to win. But he does nothing else really and we win.
G2: I believe he does get a DRS out, but late again. I turn 2 therapy 2 food chains away, and he does nothing relevant and eventually kill him.
round 2 - RW Painter (0-2)
Both games of the match he turn 2 combos me. This is whats making me take out 1 Ashen Rider from the side and putting in 1 Progenitus.
round 3 - reanimator (2-1)
G1: He gets out a turn 3 or 4 Griseldaddy, but is cast off an Entomb. I bring back a Whirlpool rider and dredge a HUGE amount of my library. This leaves me with tons of Ichorids/Narcos/etc. He's at around 10 life so i try to just go for the Flayer kill since i have at least 3 Dread Returns. He draws off Griseldaddy and has a Daze and a Force, but i have too many Dread Returns and eventually kill with Flayer triggers off zombies.
G2: The turn 0 leyline leads to a scoop.
G3: He sets up for a turn 3 Elesh Norn, but unknown to him i have Force + Shoal + Narcomeoba + Gitaxian Probe. I Shoal his Reanimate, he forces, and then i force which he was not prepared for. I then immediately Dread Return/Cabal Therapy an Ashen Rider (He's sided in just in case he has Entomb and he's in the grave) and take out 2 of his Underground Seas which leaves him with only a Tropical Island. Next turn he scoops with lethal on board.
round 4 - RW Painter (2-0) (Different opponent)
G1: Turn 1 top for him, t2 he goes recruiter for painter. On my t3 i strip his hand of the combo and he has nothing else going on and i just kill him next turn.
g2 - Seems like an okay game, he has like nothing going on until turn 3. He plays Recruiter getting Painter. I manage to therapy it away but he does have grind stone + Enlightened Tutor. I assume when he casts the tutor on his next upkeep he is going to go get his Tormods, but he punts and gets another Painter and realizes he doesnt have enough mana to play and activate.
So that puts us at 3-1, getting us into top 4 and we all decide to split for 25 credit a piece at 10 entry fee. The only change i have for this week coming up is putting in a Progenitus so im basically impervious to the combo from Painter. I think all they have is weenie beats if they cant combo me out. Of course they can just crypt me after they combo, but that can add more setup and if they really have that much redundancy then i was dead anyway.
What list do you bring to the tournament??Quote:
Originally Posted by Basedx
He brought the same blue list as in the first post...
Yes, as i said in the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Went 4-1 tonight in 25 person tourney at lgs.
Rug delver 2-0
Food chain 0-2
Burn 2-1
Snt 2-0
Omni show 2-0
Super late and gotta be up early....maybe a short report tomorrow. Real quick though: omni player plays snt with one open land, I already have a chancellor in play. Omni player shows omniscience and I show chancellor number two, gg. Cabal therapy was so good tonight.
Nice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
So I took my Ghast-version along last week, went 3-1 (including a bye)
Won against Burn, UR Delver, Soldiers (permission based) - Lost against Death&Taxes
Soldiers and D&T was interesting with Dakmor! :tongue:
Not sure what to make of it compared to my standard blue list, gonna take it along next time to make sure.
After working on a list, and goldfishing;
I'm not entirely happy.
The blue plan demands a fairly single-minded approach to deck design, whereas Ghast/Dakmor dilutes some of that for it to all fit.
For me the Dakmors were very welcome given I expect to see Death&Taxes on a regular basis where I am.
The hardest part was the choice between River Kelpie & Whirlpool Rider. Ghasts and Kelpie are all good and that, but rider is where the blue plan wants to be if you're going to be siding in Disrupting Shoal.
I've gone with Kelpie for testing purposes and the last night out, but so far I'm not sold.
The flipside of this, perhaps only Force together with Kelpie, no shoals at all and maybe use the side for something else? (sigh)
Anyone else tried this out yet?
Admittedly I havnt dabbled alot with the blue version recently as ive been killing it with the spy version. I think ive been dodging some hate which also has alot to do with my results. My meta is super saturated with drs, excluding chancellor would be a death-sentence and I feel the card is super under-rated as a dread return target. I think if your gonna go blue you wanna use rider if for nothing else the ability to pitch it to shoal, the purpose of adding blue is most importantly to fight hate. Again, I havnt given much thought to the ghast/fow versions(still need to get some fow's). Until I get hated out at my lgs im gonna run the spy's as they are the fastest way to win. Slave, whats your meta like and does it warrant the blue splash? Btw....manaless crushes blue decks, so good.
Where I typically play is a mixed bag of newbie's and ye olde regulars like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
Blue is very common (as it always is in Legacy I suppose), and hate has subsided a fair bit in the last 6months to a year, since Death&Taxes decks started dominating.
So most of the time Manaless is playable. I'm almost the only person who plays it regularly, or LED-Dredge, but there is another fella who drags it out occasionally.
We have at least 3 regular players of D&T in a room that holds ~30 players when maxed out, usually we see a few less than that though.
I don't see too many of the *Decks to Beat* lists showing up (besides D&T, Show, Reanimator) in my area thankfully, just the odd one here or there.
DRS is always a threat, and ran rampant a while back. But lately I haven't seen the sucker all that much.
Spy would probably be just as good given my meta to be honest, but I'm just not willing to give up the counter, I am well and truly a convert.
And I fully agree with you re:Rider, I've just been wanting to test out Kelpie. :wink:
I've done a number of games with Kelpie now and must say I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm using the following list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
3 River Kelpie
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Progenitus
Having 16 creatures that EtB (12 of which are recurring) is a pretty big upgrade. I'm not sure if I want to keep Selkie or trade it for Whirlpool Riders (or Drakes, since I'm not running counters, for that matter) though. Selkie still feels like it needs a little setting up/making sure conditions are right to go for it (you can't play a land before DR'ing it). But that might be just as true for the Rider/Drake. Or maybe I want to go with Griselbrand as DR target, I dunno yet. Being able to get those Bloodghasts on the field before comboing off seems like the best thing to do, since we want to Cabal Therapy our opponent before going off and all that.
I think that for the tournament this saturday, I'll be switching it to the Drake for the combo bit.
On a side note concerning the Spy version: The biggest upside of that build is that you don't need any extra dredges post-DR (obviously). The first time I DR'd Selkie, I ended up having to Therapy myself b/c all Grave-Trolls were in my hand and for some reason the last 3 Phantasmagorians were still in what was left of my library. It felt kinda silly. The Spy combo is a lot faster in execution, you don't have to manipulate that many cards/work so many triggers to kill your opponent. Not that that should be a reason to run Spy over Selkie/Rider, but it's worth noting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't have the most experience with Manaless with Spy, but i do play the FoW version. Im a bit interested in why you are running this version instead of the regular Spy version if you arent running the blue FoW/Shoal package? From my understanding the FoW/Shoal version plays Whirlpool rider as a replacement for spy to give us cards to pitch for it while still being able to accelerate dredges. If you're not playing Forces, why not just play spy? It feels like you cant try and race decks fast enough because you don't have the additional counter package.