Theros: Beyond Death spoilers

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Originally Posted by Barook

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/d...ysiangrove.jpg

Dryad of Ilysian Grove 2G
Enchantment Creature - Nymph

You may play an additional land on each of your turns.

Lands you control have all basic land types in addition to other types.

2/4

Seems more usable than the Dinosaur who also explores. Are there any decks where the basic type stuff is relevant? Seems pretty good with Glacial Chasm + Loam for continued replaying each turn while Chasm can also create mana. But maybe that's just too cute.

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I think you run that along WITH the exploration dinosaur in a 2G shell. Throw in the Crucible snake and actual Crucible and you've got redundancy on your combo for days, especially with GSZ. Toss in the Land search Elf and Nylea's Intervention and you've got a pretty decent land control shell with a combo finish. Say...

Dudes - 20
4x Exploration Dinosaur
4x Dryad of Explore
4x Crucible Snake
4x Land Search Elf
4x ESG

Artifacts - 8
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds

Search - 8
4x Nylea's Intervention
4x GSZ

Lands - 28
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Cryptic Cavern
1x Blast Zone
1x Tabernacle
4x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
1x Bojuka Bog
10x Forest

I dunno, that's just a rough cut, but it seems like it has potential now that the search pieces have all been upgraded. Honestly, with the new "all lands type" dryad, maybe Valakut is a better/more flexible win con than Stage/Depths.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1065267704.png

Elder Giants!

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Elder Giants!

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Yog-Sothoth basically.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1065267704.png

Elder Giants!

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Is that escape thing gonna open another run of graveyard shenanigans with consequent bannings?

It's like forced evoke. you can do something pretty janky and run this dude alongside Sundial of the Infinite or stifle (and thus dreadnaught as well)?

Looks like they finally made a UG card that can reasonably compete with Goyf (as a big beater), and more importantly versus Goyf (head to head). That said, it's not really a legitimate competitor were DRS still legal; and the green and black modes of DRS kind of need to exist to police legacy. Only a matter of time before these effects show back up, so Uro will only ever exist on a timer.

Still Uro has the mandatory 6 power and ability to play other card types without growing Goyf out of range (due to escape exiling), which have classically plagued any attempt to out-Goyf a Goyf.

There was some talk a few posts back about Haktos and manifest, but Uro is a much better example of a card that plays nicely with Dreadnought things. While Uro is fine alone as a 3 mana basically uncounterable investment, he gets significantly better with a shell that can stock the yard, particularly in the context of a double duty card like Sundial.

As long as Oko is legal though, you'd need to bend over backwards to find a deck which actively does not want Oko before Uro. That deck kinda needs to be UG only, as Oko only fails when you don't have a 3rd color to kill the occasional 3/3s you'd be donating to opponents.

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Originally Posted by Fox

It‘s also another x/1 human

...creature-feature deck

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Looks like you found the deck. Humans could run it at the top end. The colored mana is inconsequential as they run rainbowlands and Vial. It also makes more sense for them to run it over TNN due to the creature type. Most other decks could just run TNN.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1065267704.png

Elder Giants!

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2 Explores!

6 mana on turn 3? 2 explores!

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Originally Posted by FTW

2 Explores!

6 mana on turn 3? 2 explores!

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Yeah that kinda reinforces the whole belonging to Dreadnought thing, since Stifle combos with Lotus Field, and Uro combos with Lotus Field on the other side (tap 3 play it, dump Lotus into play and sac 2 lands into watch me escape).

PLay it, let the good trigger go off first.
Dump your lotus field into play
Then, activate your sundial of the infinite. exile both triggers.

It also works with Illusionary mask because it replaces the attack with turning it up and attacking!

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

PLay it, let the good trigger go off first.
Dump your lotus field into play
Then, activate your sundial of the infinite. exile both triggers.

It also works with Illusionary mask because it replaces the attack with turning it up and attacking!

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No need to exile both the triggers, just spam the dude for 3 mana and dump Field into play and be 2 cards closer to escape. No need to add in Sundial there, but yes it does augment it.

On Illusionary Mask, a 2/2 declares an attack not the 6/6. You would have missed 2 triggers.

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Originally Posted by Fox

No need to exile both the triggers, just spam the dude for 3 mana and dump Field into play and be 2 cards closer to escape. No need to add in Sundial there, but yes it does augment it.

On Illusionary Mask, a 2/2 declares an attack not the 6/6. You would have missed 2 triggers.

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Sure there's no need to do it, but since you're already cheesing it...

The declaration of attackers is done in a very specific order as defined in rule 508.1. Tapping (508.1f) occurs before triggers trigger (508.1m). The reason why Mask gets around a card like Ensnaring Bridge (aka, a 2/2 declares the attack) is because such restrictions are checked before tapping (508.1c).
The tapping is what sets off Mask's replacement effect.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Sure there's no need to do it, but since you're already cheesing it...

The declaration of attackers is done in a very specific order as defined in rule 508.1. Tapping (508.1f) occurs before triggers trigger (508.1m). The reason why Mask gets around a card like Ensnaring Bridge (aka, a 2/2 declares the attack) is because such restrictions are checked before tapping (508.1c).
The tapping is what sets off Mask's replacement effect.

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Yes, but at that point it‘s too late for the card that declared the attack was a 2/2 without text. There is no sequence by which the 6/6 side can be considered to have been face up when an attack was declared, thus no trigger.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Yes, but at that point it‘s too late for the card that declared the attack was a 2/2 without text. There is no sequence by which the 6/6 side can be considered to have been face up when an attack was declared, thus no trigger.

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You attempted to tap a two two. You replaced that event by turning it face up and tapping it. Later the game will check to see if triggers should have triggered and when that check happens it's face up and has a trigger to trigger.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/sq...vnf-970-80.png

3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?

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Originally Posted by aedemiel

Yog-Sothoth basically.

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pffff not even close

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Originally Posted by Cire

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/sq...vnf-970-80.png

3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?

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That card is... very interesting. Is this the first time an effect counters something without targeting it?

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

You attempted to tap a two two. You replaced that event by turning it face up and tapping it. Later the game will check to see if triggers should have triggered and when that check happens it's face up and has a trigger to trigger.

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The attempting to tap doesn‘t really matter here, b/c the only reason you‘re tapping is that you‘re electing to declare an attack. So what declared the attack: a 2/2. What will be in combat from that point will be a 6/6 that is simply in combat but did not declare the attack.

I get what you‘re saying with the rules, but it really comes down to what does a “when/whenever x attacks...“ triggers really mean, and how they qualify getting triggered. Not being face-up when an attack was actually declared (by a player declaring “this 2/2 as my attacker“) means they didn‘t declare the attack with a 6/6, so they won‘t be eligible for the trigger that comes with a 6/6.

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Originally Posted by colo

That card is... very interesting. Is this the first time an effect counters something without targeting it?

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Summary Dismissal, Time Stop, Glorious End, Sundial of the Infinite. Technically Nether Void also qualifies.

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Originally Posted by Fox

The attempting to tap doesn‘t really matter here, b/c the only reason you‘re tapping is that you‘re electing to declare an attack. So what declared the attack: a 2/2. What will be in combat from that point will be a 6/6 that is simply in combat but did not declare the attack.

I get what you‘re saying with the rules, but it really comes down to what does a “when/whenever x attacks...“ triggers really mean, and how they qualify getting triggered. Not being face-up when an attack was actually declared (by a player declaring “this 2/2 as my attacker“) means they didn‘t attack with a 6/6, so they won‘t be eligible for the trigger that comes with a 6/6.

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But that's not what happened. To declare an attacker requires you to

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508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 722, “Handling Illegal Actions”).

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You're under the impression that declaring attackers is a thing done and then the game does stuff when the rules say that declaring an attacker is a process. You check the object all throughout this process. When you started the process it was a 2/2 to get under bridge, but by the time you're checking for triggers the process has made it a 6/6 with abilities.
The tapping is essential to making this work, because the order of steps matter.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

But that's not what happened. To declare an attacker requires you to

You're under the impression that declaring attackers is a thing done and then the game does stuff when the rules say that declaring an attacker is a process. You check the object all throughout this process. When you started the process it was a 2/2 to get under bridge, but by the time you're checking for triggers the process has made it a 6/6 with abilities.
The tapping is essential to making this work, because the order of steps matter.

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It would certainly make Mask better if it worked like you‘re saying, but there is a hole in the rules. The problem is a logical one of what the game object was when a player declared it an attacker. Yes all the replacement effects happen before priority is given, and all the replacement things are done in a no-priority batch.

Ensnaring Bidge isn‘t quite the right card to illustrate this concept. Most specifically E-Bridge states creatures with power greater than x may not be declared an attacker, and this has nothing to do with removing things already past declaration of attack. To illustrate: Geist of St. Traft attacking into a Bridge (2 cards in hand), defender gets whacked for 6.

Perhaps a better way illustrate the difference between the game object which was declared the attacker and what game object is treated as tapped and attacking would be this:
Suppose a card imposes a static tax on any game object over 2 power attempting to declare an attack; at no point would the Mask‘d 2/2 owner be required to pay said tax (in that combat) by flipping over into the 6/6.

Another example could be a card that has a ferocious clause and will generate 2 types of triggers, one for attacking with <4 power and a different one if the attacker was over 4 power. With the face-down 6/6 you would only get the trigger for a 2/2 stat line.

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Originally Posted by Fox

It would certainly make Mask better if it worked like you‘re saying, but there is a hole in the rules. The problem is a logical one of what the game object was when a player declared it an attacker. Yes all the replacement effects happen before priority is given, and all the replacement things are done in a no-priority batch.

Ensnaring Bidge isn‘t quite the right card to illustrate this concept. Most specifically E-Bridge states creatures with power greater than x may not be declared an attacker, and this has nothing to do with removing things already past declaration of attack. To illustrate: Geist of St. Traft attacking into a Bridge (2 cards in hand), defender gets whacked for 6.

Perhaps a better way illustrate the difference between the game object which was declared the attacker and what game object is treated as tapped and attacking would be this:
Suppose a card imposes a static tax on any game object over 2 power attempting to declare an attack; at no point would the Mask‘d 2/2 owner be required to pay said tax (in that combat) by flipping over into the 6/6.

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Ensnaring bridge is the perfect card to illustrate this concept. When the process checks in step .1c it is a 2/2. But when you reach step .1f it's now a 6/6. It still being declared an attacker even though it clearly could not be one. If tapping happened first you wouldn't be able to send a Mask creature into the bridge because you have to do the steps in order.

Geist of St Traft is an irrelevant card to bring up because a creature put into play attacking is never declared as an attacker.
508.3a An ability that reads “Whenever [a creature] attacks, . . .” triggers if that creature is declared as an attacker. Similarly, “Whenever [a creature] attacks [a player or planeswalker], . . .” triggers if that creature is declared as an attacker attacking that player or planeswalker. Such abilities won’t trigger if a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking.
508.4c A creature that’s put onto the battlefield attacking or that is stated to be attacking isn’t affected by requirements or restrictions that apply to the declaration of attackers.
The rules are explicit that the token was never subject to any restriction, and implicitly say it was never declared as an attacker.

Your last example, the tax, is also covered in the rules and again it happens before tapping, it's covered in the same rule that covers bridge:
508.1c The active player checks each creature they control to see whether it’s affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can’t attack, or that it can’t attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
When you make the tax check the creature is a 2/2 and won't be bigger until .1f, because you have to do .1c before you do .1f.

We're talking in circles here. Your rules interpretation is fine but there is a difference between what attacked and what is tapped and attacking. To get the trigger off the 6/6 you have to be able to point to it as the thing that was declared an attacker, and that's where the rules you're citing fall apart.

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Originally Posted by Fox

We're talking in circles here. Your rules interpretation is fine but there is a difference between what attacked and what is tapped and attacking. To get the trigger off the 6/6 you have to be able to point to it as the thing that was declared an attacker, and that's where the rules you're citing fall apart.

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You point to your 6/6 in step .1m. When you're getting under the bridge you point to it as still-a-2/2 in .1c. It doesn't fall apart if you just do what the rules say to do, unless you're doubting they're the same object.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...106_134610.png

The BR Titan

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Originally Posted by Cire

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...106_134610.png

The BR Titan

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This titan cycle is still looking pretty good for masknought

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

This titan cycle is still looking pretty good for masknought

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Something like . . .

4 Stiffle
4 Mask
2 Trickbind

4 Dreadnaught
8 Titans

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Other counter/kill/discard/etc

18 Lands

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Originally Posted by Cire

Something like . . .

4 Stiffle
4 Mask
3 Torpor Orb

4 Dreadnaught
8 Titans

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Other counter/kill/discard/etc

18 Lands

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Let's see what other titans there are.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Let's see what other titans there are.

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I mean sure but I don't think you'll be running more than 8 of them regardless?

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Originally Posted by Cire

I mean sure but I don't think you'll be running more than 8 of them regardless?

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Yeah, but the colors matter and there's a 9/8 flying trample and a 7/7 trample waiting their turn.

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Originally Posted by Cire

...
3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?

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3 mana is a lot, and flusterstorm is way stronger in counter wars. I don't think it will see any legacy play.

https://i.imgur.com/TjROkyc.jpg

A little surprised to see no one having mentioned this yet. While Relic of Progenitus is the clear comparison, this card at least somewhat interestingly compares.

First, you get to hit something of you choice off the ETB trigger. Next, it takes no additional mana to get their whole 'Yard. Also, it does not hit your own 'Yard. Clear downside though, it does not cycle if you actually use it to eat their 'Yard. Just another interesting option. I think actually this is sort of nearer to something like Nihil Spellbomb except, of course, you don't need :B: at all, but in the sense of it's "speed" of use only not having the CA "baked in."

nice one. it blanks Grove of the Burnillows if PFire is in the graveyard when this is played

Titans are just the new ”Hunted”. Torpor Orb is still the answer

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Originally Posted by Poron

Titans are just the new ”Hunted”. Torpor Orb is still the answer

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I kind of like the Rakdos titan in a BR pox list. Weaker than Uro, but a better role player for pox than Uro is to control imo. 3 mana for 1 card and a healing salve is too much. What _could_ be nice is the combo of Emry, Lurker of the Loch to feed Escape with Uro and get it in the graveyard.
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/221.jpg


In other news, this is a cool mana rock:
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/231.jpg

New planeswalker
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/257.jpg

Planeswalker Hatebear
https://i.redd.it/53l5qnb5gd941.png

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Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss

Planeswalker Hatebear
https://i.redd.it/53l5qnb5gd941.png

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I'm glad this exists.
1 toughness thought :(

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Originally Posted by Tylert

I'm glad this exists.
1 toughness thought :(

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And that tax isn't going to do much except delay an immediate activation one turn. Only really good when your opponent is on Super Friends.

The real stinker is that it's one-sided, though. Fucking Wizards, when will they learn?

Lab Maniac deck backup plan?

https://media.wizards.com/2019/thb/en_wfOXYXj8im.png

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Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss

Lab Maniac deck backup plan?

https://media.wizards.com/2019/thb/en_wfOXYXj8im.png

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I would say it's the primary plan for such a deck because an ETB I win is better than a "next time I draw"
Actually, because it triggers on "equal to" you can combo with leveler and he fully protected from removal.... So tooth and nail?