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Not too sure, for now I'm reading what people initially think about and compare them. There seem to be 3 branches I'm following/willing to playtest more heavily:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
- All-in URg: Veil, Gamble
- All-in URb: discard, entomb, Infernal Tutor
- Grindier artifact-based URw: Opal, Emry, baubles, Echo, Narset, Reclamation, Mentor
Agreed. Once I tested it, I found it slows us down too much and the benefit wasn't worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Thanks for sharing the result. Another tutor that almost gets there but not quite.Quote:
On another note, I was working on the following list for fun. Despite my eventual conclusion posting it in case someone wants to work of this list in case they see potential in it.
Conclusion: Do not think Scheming Symmetry is worth it. The end result of 30 goldfishing games is largely similar to other lists previously posted. Playing with symmetry often felt like playing a 2 card combo (Symmetry plus draw/mill/grid) to get a three card combo. . .
Yeah, that was also my feel after testing many different shells. Underworld Breach & the combo are so strong that they can pull wins out of a bad shell, so it gets hard to tell, especially goldfishing. A lot of different directions all work.Quote:
I feel the only reason it worked out as well as it did was that Underworld Breach is powerful enough, and the underling combo is powerful enough to enable the above results almost regardless of shell . . .
For a good competitive list, we need to maximize resilience against what the opponent is doing. Alternate win conditions, protection for the combo, answers to hate, ways to recover from disruption, consistent card selection, or just raw speed to race them.
Even as far as colors go, I think whatever colors give us the best tools for that will lead to a strong deck.
All 3 have goldfished well for me. The core combo is strong. All 3 have different ways to support it. I think it will come down to which is the most resilient against disruptive opponents (protection, answers to hate, recovering and finding pieces again, etc.). That needs some heavy playtesting against opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
What do others think?
The more I try to make this work the less I like the Brain Freeze combo. Sure it can be explosive at times and the shell for it is flexible enough to be built in many ways. I really think this card shines when you get to "play magic" with your opponent, by either casting a bunch of cantrips, or discard/proactive disruption, or forcing them to counter our rituals. I have been part of a deck building group for a while now that was basically "mono black belcher". If anyone is familiar with the Spanish Inquisition deck you probably have a pretty good idea of where I am about to go with this. Here is where the group is at with the deck so far:
Sorceries (20)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cruel Bargain
2 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts (16)
3 Chrome Mox
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
Creatures (10)
2 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
Instants (8)
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
Lands (4)
4 Badlands
Enchantments (2)
2 The Flame of Keld
Sideboard (1)
1 Grapeshot
This deck does it all. It has the disruption. It has the explosiveness, and it has the recovery/rebuilding (Draw 4's and Breach). It is really fast......like REALLY FAST! It has a high % of T1 kills without protection, and is consistently a T2 or T3 with protection. While there are some cards that give this deck problems (as with any combo deck) the speed it offers usually means you can get under those problem cards. I don't know what the rules are for linking to external sites (Facebook in this case) but if you want to search for the deck on Facebook just look for "Blitzkrieg: The Fastest and Most Powerful Storm in Legacy". Come join in the discussion and get to know how the deck operates.
While I know that the list I posted is not a BF deck, I do hope that it helps to stimulate some discussion around making the BF deck more explosive and consistent - 2 issues I have found with previously posted lists. There is a list with BF here somewhere and I look forward to helping create it!
Out of curiosity, why green here over white? All I see it giving us Veil of Summer and Reverent Silence. While white gives us Silence (better than Veil of Summer since it protects the yard from surgicals), Sevinne's Reclamation, and Hall of Heliod's Generosity which provide some recursion for grindy games. Reverent Silence is the biggest lost imo, but I can also see running a 1 of trop to keep it in our wishboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
EDIT: To avoid double posting.
Alex McKinley posted an article on theepticstorm.com about the card. Although I disagree with his assessment of the card, he does bring up some good points that I think we should start considering with the different builds. Mainly that of a plan B. What can we add to the deck so that a surgical on UB isn't the end of the world (pun intended). I've been thinking on it for a bit for the jeskai build I'm working with, and am considering the merits of Monastery Mentor and\or using 1-2 PiF as backup.
McKinley also brings up an interesting argument about the power of ANT and TES being in their tutor package more so than their payoffs. With this in mind, how can we adjust our decks so that our core combo takes less slots? I don't know the answer to this one, but I suspect we can probably afford to go down to 3 BF since we can wish for it in the form of Tome Scour. Seems like something that should go hand-in-hand with making room for a plan B\plan C.
I was a big fan of SI back when it was more prominent. How good is Breach in it?Quote:
Originally Posted by shojeel
Does SI have a higher turn 1 rate than Belcher (the red one)? I thought Belcher replaced it as the best glass cannon deck. Belcher still puts up tournament results but I never see SI anymore.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=83&meta=39&f=LE
mistercakes posted a Belcher-ish list earlier using Underworld Breach. Don't know if he tested it.
I tried out UB in Belcher when it was first spoiled (replacing Pyretic Ritual, usually considered the weakest slot). It was bad. Belcher doesn't put enough cards in the graveyard to get value from Escape. SI burns through more cards so maybe UB would be good there.
Do we want to go that direction? Decks like SI and Belcher are very fast but lose to Force of Will and variance, putting up worse tournament results than slower but resilient decks like ANT and TES.Quote:
While I know that the list I posted is not a BF deck, I do hope that it helps to stimulate some discussion around making the BF deck more explosive and consistent - 2 issues I have found with previously posted lists. There is a list with BF here somewhere and I look forward to helping create it!
If you want an explosive fun turn 1 BF list, check out Pdingo's list a few pages back.
One more experiment, this one with more promising results. As constantly discussed the combo is strong and the main gating issue is getting Breach into your hand. One avenue that we haven't looked at is Serum Powder. Unlike Vintage Bazaar you can't just mulligan to 1 to find Breach (as discussed previously you need at minimum to combo off 2 mana sources, Breach, LED/search, Brainfreeze/Mill/Search, so 5 cards). But, unlike vintage you can mulligan into tutor OR Breach, so 8 cards instead of 4. Trying to find math on Mulligan was hard since i only found python codes and am not sure how to even run them or even how to edit them. In essence instead of mulliganing down to 1 to find Bazaar I wanted to find out the percentage of mulliganing down to 5 to find tutor OR breach.
The deck that I ran was the following with the intention of maximizing 4 off's due to the exile of serum powder:
16 lands
4 Underworld Breach
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Serum Powder
4 Brain Freeze
4 Tome Scour
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gamble
4 Burning Wish
4 Pact of Negation
My criteria for keeping a hand was whether I had the following in my hand:
2 Mana sources
1 LED/Gamble
1 Brainfreeze/Tome Scour
1 Tutor/Breach
Without mulliganing a rough calculation (using https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/kmli...alculator.html, so roughly .654^5 for the above) is that you will have exactly that mix around 12% of the time in your opening hand. We have all seen how the probability of going off turn 2-3 is much higher with draws/tutoring and especially mulliganing (in testing we all have seen how we have about 50% chance of going off turn 2 with or without protection depending on build - the above calculation doesn't take that into account as it's only interested in getting the "perfect" opening hand"). Again, I'm not capable of editing the bazaar mulligan python script so I leave it to others (https://github.com/Dritte/VintageDre...ganToBazaar.py (moreover the math would be very different and harder since you aren't trying to find the total probability of mulliganing down to 1 card, but the probability of mulliganing to a certain combination of cards)). After 30 goldfishing with aggressive mulligans and Powder I have found that I was able to get the above cards in 7 of my 30 games which is about 23%, much higher than the percentage with mulliganing at all. Without powder I was able to get it 5 games which is about 17%, so this insufficient testing (30 games is not a large sample size) shows that powder can add about 5% consistency to having the cards you need in opening hand. Don't know yet how that compares to the turn 2 win probabilities (with or without protection) as this test was just to find out the opening hand probabilities.
Conclusion: Uncertain. If the math actually holds out in more testing, it is unclear if 5% is worth it to add powders, essentially dead cards, to the deck. On the other hand it is also unclear if we need to run 4 offs of everything or can make due with less cards and thus more space for more accel/draw/tutors or protection. Clearly the above mulliganing guideline isn't the most accurate - for example lots of hands with brainstorm are more than keepable.
Reverent Silence is the big one. Originally we had black, so green offered Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
Losing Reverent Silence hurts. In white Fragmentize can work, but it's 1 cmc. Leyline shows up a lot in the SB of Chalice decks, so it's nice to have an answer that works through Chalice @ 1. White has stuff like Disenchant and Wear // Tear, but they're not Wishable and don't answer multiples. I've seen other combo decks use Serenity. It could work for us (kills Chalice, Leyline, Blood Moon, 3sphere, Solitary Confinements, etc). It kills our Defense Grid, but I doubt we need Grid in those matchups.
Otherwise I agree. White has more tools. Silence is better for us than Veil of Summer.
Agree. That's why I keep pushing Wishes and Tutors. They may take away tempo from turn 1 goldfishes, but the flexibility to find the card you need when you need it is powerful.Quote:
McKinley also brings up an interesting argument about the power of ANT and TES being in their tutor package more so than their payoffs.
In white I think Enlightened Tutor is worth it. It finds the core combo, but also postboard it finds Silent Gravestone (Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Scooze), Pithing Needle (Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb), Serenity (Leylines, Spheres, Moons, Chalice @ 0, etc), Engineered Explosives, etc. Between Burning Wish and ETutor, we can run 1-ofs and 2-ofs in the SB instead of needing 4 copies. That frees up a ton of space to have diverse answers to different hate. Otherwise we would need 4-5x enchantment kill to not scoop to Leyline (like Dredge does). The power of tutor packages!
Do we need the core to take less slots?Quote:
With this in mind, how can we adjust our decks so that our core combo takes less slots? I don't know the answer to this one, but I suspect we can probably afford to go down to 3 BF since we can wish for it in the form of Tome Scour. Seems like something that should go hand-in-hand with making room for a plan B\plan C.
Edit for more thought-out answer:
ANT and TES are fundamentally a different strategy. They need to chain ANY 5-9 spells together, then grab a win condition. They only need their engine pieces (Ad Naus, Past in Flames, etc) once they have a critical mass of other spells to start the chain. Then they only need Tendrils/Empty when they're ready to finish the chain. The tutor package lets them control that timing, only seeing the cards when they're ready. They want those cards to take fewer slots because they don't need them until the end. They don't need them to start the chain.
A+B (or A+B+C) combos are different (e.g. Painter + Grindstone, SnT + Omniscience + kill). They're not trying to chain any old spells. They need to assemble specific pieces to do anything. A+B decks usually run 4 copies of A and B to maximize the chance of drawing them naturally.
Although we're storm, we're more of an A+B+C deck. We need to assemble Underworld Breach + LED + Brain Freeze to start the chain, so don't we want to see them as often as possible?
In ANT and TES a better analogy is rituals and mana rocks. That's their kindling. They need a critical mass of those to start their chain, just like we need Breach+LED+mill to start ours. Could you imagine ANT and TES cutting rituals and Moxen to make space and using tutors to find them? More copies means it's easier for them to start. The slots they want to reduce are the cards they only need near the end.
For us, Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens are the cards we don't need until the end. They're hidden in the Wishboard. Our other weak/conditional slots are backup plans (Echo of Eons, Tome Scour), which are also in the board! Burning Wish is already freeing up space in the same kind of way. Burning Wish / some tutor could also be used to find a plan B / C.
Anyway, do we need to cut Brain Freezes? They're not just the kill, they're also a core engine piece. Pre-combo they're still good. Game 1 Brain Freeze fills your yard with escape fodder and digs into LED. G2/3 self-mill gets worse, so we could board out 1-2 copies and still have Burning Wish if we need Tome Scour.
If you have a 7/8 chance to miss, then the chance to miss three times in a row is (7/8)^3 = 343/512 or roughly 2/3Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Adding one more mulligan for the serum powders (as a quick-and-dirty estimate) brings that up to 3/5. It's not great either way.
That matches up with my rough calculations actually right? The difference is about 5-6% (in your case without Powder 66% chance to wiff, with Powder 60% chance). The question is if that makes running the card worth it and if the percentage isn't actually better if you consider other hands keepable and/or you allow yourself to reduce some of the 4 ofs (for example Gamble could look for BF as well, ET could look for LED, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Where's the Python code? I could run/edit/customize it later tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I found the following for mulliganing into Bazaar: https://github.com/Dritte/VintageDre...ganToBazaar.py. But again our problem is trickier in we want to figure out (1) probability of mulliganning into a certain hand state, (2) only mulligan to 5 "allowed", (3) figuring out which handstate (for example, I was very explicit in my goldfishing over which cards to count - but Gamble could look for BF as well, ET could look for LED, etc. Moveover, lots of hands with brainstorm are keepable regardless).Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Edit - Not sure this takes into account London mulligan . . .
Is there anything else like Doom Whisperer that can grind cards into the GY in exchange for life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
I disagree and it would seem I'm of the minority here. I prefer veil over silence effects because it has clear advantages over a 1 mana silence. Sure Silence can function as a timewalk in the earlier stages of a game or work around most things Veil of Summer can answer but there are some exceptions in permanent-based permission like Chalice and Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Veil is also strictly better than Silence against discard. At the very least veil cantrips at the end of their turn.
If I were to play silence effects I would play Abeyance over Silence without hesitation. That was the case in my other Storm or combo lists in general when I was already splashing white.
It is true however that white has very good sideboard cards:
Serenity
Monastery Mentor
Abeyance
Equipoise
Teferi, Time Raveler
It now even has its own Beast Within in Generous Gift, but mostly it's about Serenity for me.
Trying a Hedron Crab list https://deckbox.org/sets/2556171, slots still moving around here is the last iteration:
With no Teferi, Veil nor Silence I think the one-of Echo in this list would be a bad idea however.
Good points. Veil is better in the pre-combo turns against discard. It can even cantrip if they played a Brainstorm or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
I was thinking more narrowly about on the combo turn. On the combo turn, Veil of Summer protects us from counterspells and Abrupt Decay/Hydroblast on Underworld Breach. But it doesn't protect us from Surgical Extraction on LED/Brain Freeze, Wear//Tear/Disenchant/Force of Vigor on Underworld Breach, Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, Mindbreak Trap (if anyone still plays that), or their own Veil of Summer (hexproof from Brain Freeze!). Silence stops all of those. It even stops them from trying to Brainstorm into an answer or use any new cards from Echo of Eons.
You're right that Veil beats Silence in protecting us from permament-based counters like Counterbalance or Chalice @ 0 (or rare Chalice @ 2), but only if it resolves. If they have Chalice @ 1 or can set up a 1 cmc spell with Counterbalance then Veil won't resolve (at least Top is banned!). We could play around permanent-based hate by digging for an answer and destroying it. We can see it coming. They're on the battlefield. The instants we can't.
Good point. Abeyance covers everything above that Silence does, cantrips, and also stops activated abilities of GY hate (or Vial into Thalia or Flickerwisp on Breach etc). It protects us from more. It just also costs more. Paying for Silence already slows down the combo turn a bit. How hard would it be to cast Abeyance in our low-land deck?Quote:
If I were to play silence effects I would play Abeyance over Silence without hesitation. That was the case in my other Storm or combo lists in general when I was already splashing white.
Hedron Crab looks good and reduces the need for extra Brain Freezes! How do you play around Scheming Symmetry? Do you wait till you have Hedron Crab out? Or try to cantrip into the card immediately and hope they can't do the same?
Here's another radical idea (and makes Abeyance easier to cast).
Our combo involves looping LED over and over from the graveyard. What other deck wants to do that? Could we add redundancy by playing multiple combos?
//Artifacts: 27
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Defense Grid
//Enchanments: 4
4 Underworld Breach
//Creatures: 4
4 Auriok Salvagers
//Spells: 7
3 Brain Freeze
3 Abeyance
1 Burning Wish
//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard: 15
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Grapeshot
1 Echo of Eons
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
With Salvagers, once you have infinite mana, the kill is to just Bauble through your deck until you hit Brain Freeze/Wish and Storm kill them.
The 0cc artifacts also synergize with Brain Freeze, building Storm to self-mill a lot to dig into escape fuel and LED. Maybe maindeck Sevinne's Reclamation makes sense to support the self-mill plan.
Against gravehate, we board out:
-4 Breach
-3 Brain Freeze
-1 Wish
-4 other cards (maybe Salavagers or maybe leave it in with 1-2 kill cons)
+12 beatdown
I think knowing the weaknesses in advance is enough to play around them. Those are all examples of cards that specifically (or not) hose a veil protection. And you should be able to expect them the moment they become relevant. For instance, Faerie Macabre is only stopped by Abeyance and discard (that are relevant to have in our deck), and if you suspect they might be holding one, you should play around it and never yield priority without a Brain Freeze on the stack right? I'm having the same reasoning about those other cards that veil doesn't properly handle. Silence is great in a all-in approach where you want to go off as fast as possible and be the least interactive possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Yeah that's why I'll always have a secondary kill for veil matchups Grapeshot in my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Chalice on 1 is very bad against us I'd say. And it's fine to assume that the only things we should be worried about when seeing a Chalice on 1 during game 1 are:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
- Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy
- Warping Wail
- Trinisphere
Let me know if I forget any, but for my meta this sounds about right. And if they do have both a Chalice on 1 and one of those 4 cards as well you should aim at playing around it and/or go again later. In those matchups their "mistake" of making a Chalice on 1 might be what saves them if they have Decay or a second Chalice on 0 however!
Yeah definitely be worried about that. Brain Freeze is an uncounterable (sort of) way of breaking a Counterbalance lock however. Burning Wish helps there as well. The new Whirlwind Denial could help here as well (counters both the Counterbalance trigger and the Brainstorm trying to set it up for instance) but it's on the expensive side. Hedron Crab is a solution too, if it resolved earlier. Do keep in mind that Silence won't resolve either here. If you do test the waters see if you can go off that turn, it means they have another CMC on top (which might be just worse actually).Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Actually most of the time you can, it's just a guessing game (see my comment above) :D Count their out depending on their mana, deduce from the way they played their cantrip the turn before, ... There are many indicators it's just very difficult to absorb the meaningful bits I'll give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Very I think, it slots well in a slower shell however, one that has a sideboard man-plan for instance ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Symmetry can be abused when you have a cantrip and they don't (3 Manamorphose for that reason by the way), Brain Freeze helps too. Overall I think the idea is a little too cute to be effective. This approach would gain a lot from maindeck veils or silence effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
You lose the Storm count when you draw the cards on the next upkeep :pQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Lol good point. I guess I would have to stack enough draws to draw most of my deck and pass. When I untap, I could repeat the LED loop to Storm kill (and would have Underworld Breach to get back Brain Freeze/Wish). If Salvagers gets killed first, I probably have enough 0cc artifacts in hand to generate lethal storm. It's awkward but should still work.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
Bomberman has to do the same thing if they need to Bauble into Walking Ballista.
In my own Symmetry test list I tried to use 3 Tome Scour, 3 Brainfreeze, 2 Defense Grid, and 4 Chromatic Sphere (regular cantrips didn't really work because I didn't have enough mana to Symmetry + Cantrip + Combo out. Passing the turn often led to extra disruption to my opponent and loss to me) to counteract its drawback and it wasn't enough. Felt like trying to assemble a combo to get my combo. I mean it still worked in that I won as often as I do with other builds but felt sub-optimal. IDK, what did it feel like for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
Has anyone come up with a good plan B that doesn't use the graveyard?
Personally I think that any version of this deck that doesn't go all-in on the combo is going to be suboptimal but a thought on this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
The key cards are:
4 LED
4 BF
4 Underworld Break
2 Burning Wish
Personally I think Enlightened tutor is necessary so let's include that in as well, that plus about 20-25 mana sources (including or excluding accel) that leaves about 22-17 cards for plan B.
There's two cards that seem that we can go in other directions with, mainly Enlightened tutor - in that it can search for answers (Look at Might Quinn) or other combos; or LED in that it can combine with Karn to accel out a Lattice.
Now Quinn's main combo was RIP and Helm, obviously that combo doesn't really work with our combo. However there is another combo that is graveyard proof and searchable through Tutor - Painter. Intresting there is a WR painter deck in the established deck list called Painter Stone that also plays LED, (sometimes) Enlightened Tutor and Karn (my other idea above).
Sort of playing off that list as a rough sketch:
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Underworld Break
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Astrolab
3 Grindstone
3 Defense Grid
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Painter's Servant
4 Brainfreeze
2 Burning Wish
2 Open Spots
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Prismatic Vista
3 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
//SB
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Grindstone
1 LED
1 Crypt
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Painter's Servant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grapeshot
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
I mean it has clear faults (mainly it seems bad at assembling either combo and no protection), but dividing the deck between the graveyard combo and another combo - with enlightened tutor being able to search for either combo plus accel and the oops I win of Karn seems like a solid plan B?
They just printed one :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/thassasoracle.jpg
Thassa's Oracle
UU
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
When Thassa's Oracle enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library, where X is your devotion to blue. Put up to one of them on top of your library and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. If X is greater than or equal to the number of cards in your library, you win the game.
Not really - you still need to use the grave to cycle LED?Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
Yeah indeed. You can however play a longer game and empty your library pretty quickly with crabs and smaller resolutions of Brain Freeze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I found it versatile enough to be considered, but it's very bad on its own to be honest. I think this could be perfect in a list with Experimental Frenzy if we somehow go this route.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I agree that that seems bad. I was trying to think of complementary cards that would help us not just lose if UB or LED gets surgically extracted. Kind of like how Tome Scour can be used to win in a pinch. So far all I've thought of is Rite of Flame + PiF\Manamorphose, and Monastery Mentor\Young Pyromancer. Neither of which seem particularly good. RoF acts kind of like lotus petal in hand and kind of like a red LED in the yard. I'm not sold on it though since the math isn't very nice to escape RoF -> Manamorphose -> BF, and it just flat out doesn't work with Tome Scour. Mentor\Young Pyromancer would play into the 12 cantrips that I run in my version and probably live in the sideboard. However 3 mana is hard to get when I'm only running 17ish lands without using all those cantrips, so maybe something like pteramander would be better (but probably not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
This is very interesting. I think we'd need to run some more maindeck self-mill if we were planning this since X will undoubtedly be 2 in our spell based deck. I feel like it's a better win condition than Jace, Weilder of Mysteries since SR can fetch it from the yard, but I don't think it solves the "what if our engine can't start" problem. It might be a better win condition than grapeshot, too bad it isn't wishable.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
If it really is the best win con (and I doubt it since it can be targeted by instant speed removal before the ability resolves) you can just run a living wish in the board to search up with burning wish to search for the creature win con.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
If you read it carefully it doesn't matter if it's on the board when the ability resolves or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
When Thassa's Oracle enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library, where X is your devotion to blue. Put up to one of them on top of your library and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. If X is greater than or equal to the number of cards in your library, you win the game.
Since 0 = 0 it will still trigger the 'win the game' clause.
Ah! I was totally relying on the oracle wording that the devotion would be counted only if permanent remains on the battlefield, not that 0=0. Good catch!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
Transformational Sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
Man plan is one way (Monastery Mentor and friends).
My preference is this. Board into:
+3 Helm of Obedience
+3 Rest in Peace
If you can't beat em, join em. What's that? You're boarding in gravehate? OK I will too.
If any UW decks board in RiP against us, we are laughing, they are literally playing our own combo piece for us.
A shell of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2-4 Preordain, and 3-4 Enlightened Tutor is perfect to assemble another artifact+enchantment 2-card combo.
We also have the option to play Energy Field as protection (which is turned on by the opponent's Leyline of the Void!!).
Who will see it coming? They'll board in gravehate and stormhate. Game 3 we can either keep RipHelm or go back to Breach. By switching gears, we reduce the optimization of the opponent's deck. They will board out cards they should keep and board in useless cards, even mulliganing into them!
This is really funny, but I don't know if it's as good as we need it to be. At least in my local meta, leyline and RiP aren't all that popular sideboard cards. So although we'd be dodging hate, my build at least isn't designed to consistently get to 4+ mana. It's hard pressed to cast Intuition at 3 mana to go off the next turn. As such, I think I'm on the Mentor plan until something better comes along.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
19 Mana Sources
2 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Lotus Petal
15 Combo
4 Underworld Breach
4 Brain Freeze
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Burning Wish
14 Dig
3 Gamble
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
12 Defense
3 Defense Grid
3 Spell Pierce
3 Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
WB 1 Pulverize
WB 1 Reverent Silence
WB 1 Sevinne's Reclamation
WB 1 Tome Scour
WB 1 Echo of Eons
WB 1 Grapeshot
SB 2 Echoing Truth *For incidental hate like Sphere of Resistance \ Chalice of the Void that stop me from finding combo*
SB 3 Monastery Mentor *Side in G2 for 1BF, 1 Defense Grid, 1 Preordain*
SB 1 Pithing Needle *For Tormod's Crypt and Wasteland*
SB 3 Silent Gravestone *For Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre*
This is my current pile. A few questions I'm having that I'd appreciate some feedback on:
- For a win conditions is Living Wish + Thassa's Oracle or Grapeshot better? The Oracle path ignores all hate I can think of, but takes up more sideboard slots and requires 3 colors floating instead of the 1 color for grapeshot.
- For tutors should I use Intuition or Gamble? Intuition can get any number of combo pieces, but costs much more and can be Veil of Summered.
- For removal is Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt better? Swords is better creature removal, but lightning bolt can be escaped in combo to make up for extra damage if things go south.
- Is sideboard Monastery Mentor even worth running, or should I be more on an all-in plan?
- Should I run Spell Pierce or Daze? Spell Pierce can be escaped with the remaining U from LED to counter early hate, but Daze is free from hand.
- Is Echo of Eon's needed in wishboard or can I replace that with something better? Maybe use this to free up the slot for Thassa's Oracle?
- Is Green worth it for Reverent Silence? or should I cut it to ease up on the manabase?
I am really liking the "all in" build! It can be BF combo or it can win via ToA, EtW, or Belcher. Here is my current list.
Sorceries (20)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cruel Bargain
2 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts (15)
2 Chrome Mox
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
Creatures (10)
3 Hope of Ghirapur
3 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
Instants (9)
1 Brain Freeze
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
Lands (4)
4 Badlands
Enchantments (2)
2 Underworld Breach
I gold fished last night with a list with no BF in it and it went something like this.
Blitz Gold Fish Test - 10 rounds split 5/5 for on play vs on draw.
List:
Underworld Blitz
4 Dark Ritual (DR)
4 Culling the weak (CtL)
2 Thoughtseize (TS)
4 Cabal Therapy (CT)
2 Chrome Mox (CM)
4 Lotus Petal (LP)
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond (LED)
4 Mox Opal (MO)
4 Shield Sphere (SS)
3 Phyrexian Walkers (PW)
2 Hope of Ghirapur (HoG)
2 Dark Petition (DP)
4 Infernal Tutor (IT)
4 Cruel Bargain (CB)
4 Infernal Contract (IC)
2 Underworld Breach (UB)
1 Empty the Warrens (EtW)
1 Tendrils of Agony (ToA)
1 Goblin Charbelcher (GC)
4 Badlands (Land)
G1 - on the draw
Mull 1
PW, SS, CB, DR, DR, MO put CT on bottom
T1 : PW, SS, MO -> DR and CB. Draw LP, DP, IC, CtL. Play LP, DR, CtW ->sac’ing PW, DP to find ToA, ToA
(storm count 10, no protection)
G2 - on the play
Mull 1
LP, SS, CT, CB, HoG, Land - DP to bottom
T1 : Land, HoG, pass
T2 : Draw UB, Attack, Pass (19)
T3 : Draw LED, Attack and Sac HoG (18). Play LP and LED. Sac LP and tap land -> UB and SS, sac LED (3B), escape CB -> draw IC, DR, SS, LED -> play and sac LED -> escape LED and sac (6B) -> escape IT (3B), draw TS, SS, CtW, CtW. Play SS and sac to CtW, CtW saving other SS in play, escape IT (6B) -> draw UB, CT, CT, CtL. Cast CB (5B) on self naming UB. Escape SS and sac to CtL (8B), cast CT -> escape IT (4B), draw MO, IT, LP, IT.
Fizzle at 1 life but LOOK at that chain!
G3 - on the draw
Mull 1
GC, Land, CtW, MO, PW, CT - UB to bottom
T1 : Draw DR. Land, CT. Pass.
T2 : Draw CT. Tap Land, Play PW and sac to CtL, play GC. Pass
T3 : Draw EtW. Tap land, DR, Belcher for 32
( multiple discard spells for protection only cast one but could have cast a second if needed)
G4 - on the play
Keep 7
ToA, CB, PW, DR, MO, Land, DP
T1 : Land, Pass
T2 : Draw UB. Tap Land, DR, CB, draw LP, SS, CB, DR, Play PW, SS, MO, LP. Sac LP, DR, CB, draw CT, GC, CtW, LP. Play LP and sac, CT targeting opponent, tap MO (1B), sac SS to flashback CT, CtW sac PW (4B). ToA for 26
(Late protection via CT, sac creature flashback CT)
G5 - on the draw
Keep 7
HoG, LP, IT, LED, Land, SS, CtW.
T1 : Draw CB. Land, HoG, pass.
T2 : Draw DR. Attack and sac HoG (19). Play LP, Tap Land (1B), DR (3B), SS and sac to CtW (6B), CB (3B), draw SS, LED, CB, LP. Play LP, SS, LED, LED, IT (1B) and both LED (4B 3R), find ToA. ToA for 20.
(HoG protection. It is also interesting to note that you can loop some number of LED and CB/IC if I were to get a UB from the IT. That lines has helped me many times to complete the needed spells for a storm kill)
G6 - on the play
Keep 7
CB, PW, IT, DR, CT, LED, Land.
T1 : Land, CT.
T2 : Draw DR. Play PW sac to CT flashback. Tap Land, DR, DR (5B), LED, IT (3B) and sac LED (3B 3R), find IT. IT (2B 2R), find EtW, EtW for 16
( CT, Flashback CT for protection. I could have fetched UB with IT leaving me with 3B 1R and escaped CB to draw IT, CM, EtW, HoG. This would have fizzled so making goblins was good, especially after double CT.)
G7 - on the draw
Keep 7
TS, ToA, Land, CtW, IC, SS, IC
T1 : Draw IT. Land, TS, pass.
T2 : Draw IT. SS sac to CtW (4B), CB (1B), draw CB, LED, CM, CtW. CM imprint CB and tap (2B), LED, IT sac LED (3R), find UB. UB (1R), escape LED and sac (3B 1R), escape LED and sac (6B 1R), escape ToA for 20.
(Protection in first turn with TS. One more mana would have let me cast it on the turn going off)
G8 - on the play
Mull 2
CB, DR, Land, UB, MO, put DP and TS on bottom
T1 : Land, DR, CB, draw IT, CtW, DR, Land. Pass.
T2 : Draw DP. Land, pass.
T3 : Draw IT. IT reveal DR, find DR. Pass
T4 : Draw CM. DR, DR, DP to find SS (3B). SS, MO, CM no imprint, sac SS to CtW (6B), tap Land (6B 1R), UB (5B). Then escape to a victory through DR and DP into ToA. If UB gets countered I can use the IT in hand to find CB/IC and draw four cards to either refill of continue the chain.
(Slow hand from mull 2 and no protection)
G9 - on the draw
Keep 7
DR, MO, MO, IC, IC, PW, PW
T1 : Draw IT. Play PW, PW, MO, DR, IC, draw Land, CB, GC, SS. Play Land. Pass.
T2 : Draw LP. Play LP and sac (1B), tap MO (2B), play MO and tap (3B), IC, draw Land, LED, SS, CtW. Play Land, SS, SS, LED, CtW sac PW (4B), IT and sac LED (2B 3R), find UB. Play UB (2B 1R), escape CtW (5B 1R), escape IT (4B), find ToA, ToA for 24.
(No protection)
G10 - on the play
Keep 7
Land, Land, LED, HoG, CT, CtW, IC
T1 : Land, HoG, pass.
T2 : Draw LED. Land, CT, Sac HoG to CtW (4B), LED, LED, IC and sac one LED (4B), draw CtW, ToA, CB, DP. Tap Land, DP sac LED (3B 3R), find UB, escape LED, escape ToA for 20.
(I could have tried waiting another turn but one discard should be “good enough”)
I made the changes from last night to what you see in the first part of this post. I will say that adding BF has helped to shorten the chain (sometimes) of spells needed to win. This is mainly due to the lesser mana requirements. I will try to post some more goldfish games later tonight.
If you want to go fast, this is the way!
One of those is more of a corner case:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
- Stifle and similar effects
- Pull from Eternity + removal (my Echo Storm list has access to that)
Unexpectedly Absent + Swords to Plowshares works as well from a tiered deck. Stifle is the big one if that's saying anything.
Colors aren't much of a concern though I'd say.
I can suggest trying both, maybe start with a single copy of Intuition instead of the third Gamble. Everytime you draw one of those 3, note down which one you would have preferred. This is what I do all the time and this is why my sideboard might sometime look like shit :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
Try replacing the third copy with a Lightning Bolt, you don't need 3 copies to escape 3 damages at a time. Strictly regarding removal I'd say Swords to Plowshares is always better than Lightning Bolt. Also, it doesn't force you to expose your red source to Wasteland before the combo turn. Lightning might be better in corner cases like against a Misthollow Griffin however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
In my experience (Doomsday, Echo Storm, numerous variants of Tin Fins), the man-plan can go from 2 Monastery Mentor to the full 4 Dark Confidant 4 Monastery Mentor 2 Cavern of Souls. Is the plan already in colors? How many cards are rendered useless in the face of upcoming hate? Is the man-plan also invalidated by upcoming hate and by main deck cards they might have left in? For instance (dumb example), as a Storm variant you kill them with goblins in game 1. Are you willing to run monks into a Plague Engineer? Those might be relevant questions but I haven't sat down answering them yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
Daze can counter a Thalia though. I'd play Flusterstorm instead if you opted for Spell Pierce however. You lose the ability of countering planeswalkers, artifacts and enchantments but I don't think that's relevant, at least not in game 1 (maybe it is for chalices but you have wish).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
Echo is only here to re-gas (nukes the graveyard). It's a nice option to have available for those longer games, especially in your list with the silence effects and the grids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
I think you have to pick between green and white. Silence and 2 mana mass-disenchant versus veil and free wishable mass-disenchant. You can try straight blue red with bounces and countermagic but I'd intuitively think silence/veil are simply too good to pass on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
If you're running white MD (like silence/STP) how do you justify not running ETutor? It is negative CA, but EOT opponents turn it provides card quality like nothing else - searching up you combo, accel, or even protection like grid? Like I'm seeing these lists with white and ponder and no Etutor and I just don't understand why you would prefer Ponder? CA is great, but for a three card combo I find the lack of variance just so much better. For lists that don't run white MD I can sort of understand the justification against running white FOR Etutor - it's been shown at this point that the Combo is strong enough to make many many shells playable - but if you're already decided to run white? IDK, seems really really good and I haven't seen much in playtest results or reasoning as to why you would avoid it?
Shameless plug: https://github.com/angrybacon/gitaxian-probability
I read earlier a comment here about Python and statistics. This is a little something I've written in the context of counting the theoretical turn 1 wins with several decks I was on at the moment.
Premature optimisation being one of my sadistic defects, I naturally expanded it to count a specific set of hands amongst specific deck lists fed to the script. You basically write a slate that contains specific starting hands and it will compare the scenarii to the provided decklist.
Thanks for posting your results! It looks fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by shojeel
So you were goldfishing about Turn 2-Turn 3 on average? Sounds on par with the speed of our other builds. Most of our lists goldfished turn 2-3ish with protection, but also had options to play slow around hate.
To go fast and all-in the goal should be turn 1. Any way to speed it up?
That's amazing. Something like that, but less comprehensive, was developed in the Belcher thread years ago when we were trying to find the ratios that optimized going off on turn 1. This looks better.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBacon
Is there a way to trick it to generalize the starting hands, e.g. when a Tutor could replace one or more cards? Or would they have to be input as separate cases? I suppose that's not much extra work.
Yes absolutely. If you look at a one of the slate files, take Doomsday's for instance: if you want any 3 lands, you input:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Since in that slate you marked all card names referring to what you consider as a land with an L.Code:(3, 'L')
For a starting hand of at least 1 blue land, 2 any other land and 4 unknowns:
If however you wanted exactly 1 blue land, 2 any other lands and 4 unknowns you would input instead:Code:(1, 'U'), (2, 'W|B|R|G')
The syntax that is supported is somewhat self-explanatory though not exhaustive, so I may write a little documentation on it if that's needed.Code:(1, '=U'), (2, 'W|B|R|G')
I could revive a little the code if I find the time, see if I can still understand what I did 2 years ago. If not split a little more, add a slate for the deck and a couple sample lists for people to get accustomed to the tool before making their own scenarii :-)